I know that Pantheon is being designed as a niche game with many features for a specific audiance. I am all for that, as i truly miss old-school MMORPG gaming.
One trend I keep seeing in MMOs is the catering only to the "elite" end game players, more so as the game ages. The game community ultimatly suffers, because many "casual" players, ( including players that played a lot, just not with a hardcore mindset), end up leaving the game because they feel thay are being ignored by the developers, with no new content for that part of the community. The game ends up being very top heavy, which causes the game to appear "dead" in lower zones. I myself am homeless in the MMO space because my ex-game, which we subbed to for years, has abandond me and my family as a customers.
I hope that as Pantheon grows and matures over time, that the entire community is always taken into consideration, when building new content. Pantheon is about community first, and I feel that it is critical not to forget that many people may play the game in a more casual fashion, yet being very involved all levels of content. With Pantheon being a sub based game, I hope we finally have a rich game world for all players.
I am very excited for Pantheon, because it looks like a world we can all enjoy, regardless of play style.
Pantheon is perhaps uniquely poised to take advantage and make use of adding content for all levels and not having things be end-game heavy/focused with what seems to be shaping up with their progeny system. But I too hope that while the game is niche that they don't bend over for all these super hardcore or otherwise elitist gamers, the niche of the niche.
Also:
We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.
I agree with iksar on this, I'm sure VR will have a nice mix of content for all levels I'm even sure in future xpacs to come will still envolve the lower lvl'd content to be exciting. Also like Iksar said it isn't all about lvling up you have to find gear to support your level it wouldnt mean much if your lvl 30 as a warrior and have leather armor on, you would probably be as squishy as a fly if you need so you'll need to adventure and find a zone or 2 that might give you medium ac but might have high weight like ringmail until you can find a place that drops better who knows. And the progeny system is another fanastic ide that also supports what you want which again Iksat brought up lol, well i guess Iksar pretty much covered it all
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels.
Well in most games this is not a problem . People get to max level as fast as possible and only THEN retrun to lower level camps to get equipment . This is (for people with a "rush" mindset" that is) a much more efficient way to go because if you are level 50, you just rip apart any level 30 camp that would appear difficult if done at the right level . This is typically what was happening in EQ among others - max level players camping low level mobs . I am pretty sure that there will be some no lifers in Pantheon too and they will reach max level in a week :)
I don't know if VR commented on that somewhere - what will happen when a player kills "grey" mobs ? Will he get the same loot like those who kill it when they are in the right level range . Or will he get no rare items like it is handled in some games ?
Mortam said:I know that Pantheon is being designed as a niche game with many features for a specific audiance. I am all for that, as i truly miss old-school MMORPG gaming.
One trend I keep seeing in MMOs is the catering only to the "elite" end game players, more so as the game ages. The game community ultimatly suffers, because many "casual" players, ( including players that played a lot, just not with a hardcore mindset), end up leaving the game because they feel thay are being ignored by the developers, with no new content for that part of the community. The game ends up being very top heavy, which causes the game to appear "dead" in lower zones. I myself am homeless in the MMO space because my ex-game, which we subbed to for years, has abandond me and my family as a customers.
I hope that as Pantheon grows and matures over time, that the entire community is always taken into consideration, when building new content. Pantheon is about community first, and I feel that it is critical not to forget that many people may play the game in a more casual fashion, yet being very involved all levels of content. With Pantheon being a sub based game, I hope we finally have a rich game world for all players.
I am very excited for Pantheon, because it looks like a world we can all enjoy, regardless of play style.
You concerns are 100% legit and we're going to have to have faith and wait and see what they come up with in terms of end game content and horizontal gameplay scaling. I have no good answer.
A great thing about EQ is that you'd see such a huge mix of player levels in many zones. There were so often reasons for higher level players to return to an area they'd "done" before. Sometimes it was simply traveling or socializing, but frequently it was to farm a crafting item or quest or to actually level up. The oasis had level 13 caymans and lunatics and level 37 spectres and sand giants. It made the game feel so alive to have people of diverse levels experiencing the same area at the same time. Go play ESO and all you do is consume a zone and you're done. In fact, all you can do at a given level is be in a limited area and then move on to the next. It's garbage.
On the topic of normal, casualish, players not fitting the game...
it is pretty much being stated it's a group content focused game that will have raids but they won't be the primary focus of the product.
Compare that to the guild recruitment section and all the guilds claiming to be THE "premiere" or "only raid worthy contender" or "only real hardcore raid guild that'll be all about progression raiding" while ignoring the other 12 guilds posting the exact same list of previous glories, we will have a large group of rushers who will swarm like locusts then get bored and leave (worse case scenario), or stop the need to posture over pixels in every single game while trying to force the game away from it's vision and start acting like they're part of the general community of Pantheon and take the game for what it's stated it will be (best case scenario).
The line "the devs say this won't be the game for everyone" gets thrown as a weapon at ppl asking for casual servers and similar by ppl who are set on raiding all night every night, but reading the FAQ, it's them that should be reminded of this about the game just like anyone else. Imagine, a game where you have to work to level, work to gear, work to earn a slot in a group...That's more "classic MMO" than raiding 5 nights a week and dumping on your "lessers".
Also regarding "end game" rushers, it was said in the last stream that not all raids will be max level, all content will be spread among all level ranges.....So I don't see many "end game progression server first score keepers" at level 50+ gathering for a level 25 raid mob that drops gear that might suck by level 35 except for a first kill on their way thru.
There was a post a few months ago about how we are in THEIR (VR's) world now....And again remember ALL of us need to take their blinders off and not be set on how this has to be THEIR (the individual players) way.
In addition to the reminders about end game from the FAQ that have already been posted in this topic:
9.1 Will you be able to raid in Pantheon?
Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding
TL:DR:. I think the normal player, silent majority type here, won't be the ones that have anything to worry about regarding finding stuff to do.
I agree with Mortam in essentially every respect.
The point doesn't arise only at maximum levels and only in respect to raids, however.
This very much will be a group content focused game, as Xilshale said. Probably not at the beginning as they give people a chance to learn the ropes, make friends and join guilds but certainly after the starting zone if not earlier.
Since a lot of the focus will be on the journey not the destination as mentioned in several posts above, and the emphasis will be that Pantheon does not start at maximum level, to me "casual player" applies a lot more broadly than "maximum level player that doesn't have top gear and may not want to raid in any case". It includes players that will want to log in and roam around and enjoy things and group some of the time (why else be here) but not group all of the time. So, back to one of my hot buttons. Keeping this player will be easier with a significant amout of solo content even though our core principles may dictate that it be less than half of the content, give inferior gear to group content and not provide for leveling at the same speed as group content.
We want to emphasize group content but a one-dimensional game is far more limited in who it can attract and keep. A game that includes some real solo content for *them* ((sneers visibly in the direction of the hoi polloi)) is more likely to succeed whereas an idealogically pure game that is 90% group content is more likely to ...not succeed.
Please note that I do not disagree with the idea of Pantheon as a niche game not a wowkiller with the focus on group content and the many other nice features that got most of us to pledge and be in these forums. Where I am probably in the minority here is the strong belief that Pantheon can remain true to its principles while throwing enough content to the more casual player to keep them playing and paying and from a success/failure point of view casuals subscribing is a BIG plus - there are a LOT of them.
@dorotea
Why does a "casual" need solo content? I don't understand that mentality, why can't a casual player player with others? casual doesn't mean bad or unfit to cooperate with others, casual is a players that doesn't have much time to play, and that's okay, he will proggress slower but that's not a bad thing, this way there's allways something to look forward to when logging in.
The game is focused on socialization and group play, ofc there will be solo content but I don't see the need for more solo content specifically created for players that don't want to group.
jpedrote said:@dorotea
Why does a "casual" need solo content? I don't understand that mentality, why can't a casual player player with others? casual doesn't mean bad or unfit to cooperate with others, casual is a players that doesn't have much time to play, and that's okay, he will proggress slower but that's not a bad thing, this way there's allways something to look forward to when logging in.
The game is focused on socialization and group play, ofc there will be solo content but I don't see the need for more solo content specifically created for players that don't want to group.
Well, it's a pretty easy answer. The "casual" is likely to have less time to invest, and grouping takes time. People want to hop on for an hour, make progress, and then log out. I agree that there should not be content that is "solo content" and then content just for groups. There should just be content. And you can either do it, or not, solo, depending on your class/level/etc, or you can group and do it better. If a player wants to make progress, but doesn't have time to find a group, they should probably play a class that is more powerful on its own. And hopefully there will be plenty of horizontal scaling in the game to satisfy people. If you're a "casual" and yet still want to race up in levels and be super powerful, then play more. Otherwise, solo some, craft, trade, harvest, socialize, etc.
Or we can stop categorizing each other into "casual" and "hard core" and acting like each other side is the bane of all games.
Instead of trying to get VR to create content for each of these categories, just let VR create their game as intended and let the players play as they choose.
Beefcake said:Or we can stop categorizing each other into "casual" and "hard core" and acting like each other side is the bane of all games.
Instead of trying to get VR to create content for each of these categories, just let VR create their game as intended and let the players play as they choose.
Agreed! Let the way people play be a product of the game and not the game be a product of the way people play.
Beefcake said:Or we can stop categorizing each other into "casual" and "hard core" and acting like each other side is the bane of all games.
Instead of trying to get VR to create content for each of these categories, just let VR create their game as intended and let the players play as they choose.
Exactly, separating and dividing the community into separate servers and hardcore/casual labels does more damage than people think, we are making a fun and challenging game that will attract all kinds of gamers, no matter their playstyle, time available or skill level and we intend to make the game enjoyable for everyone according to our tenets, features and vision for our game. ;)
>Instead of trying to get VR to create content for each of these categories, just let VR create their game as intended and let the players play as they choose.<
I agree that dividing ourselves up into categories or cliques is not desirable, but different people play different ways and understanding this is key to creating a game that attracts more than just the hardcore group 24/7 people. One of my goals is reminding VR now and then - not that they really need the reminder - that a pure group game is less likely to succeed than a mostly group game that is deliberately built to have content accesssible to (1) We hardcore supporters when we don't have time or aren't in the mood to group - and that happens occasionally to almost all of us; and (2) People that really PREFER to solo but will be attracted to Pantheon anyway because of its old school style, difficulty etc. People that may socialize as much as any of us but more in guilds than PUGs and may never group unless their guild is running something they are interested in. Not necessarily casual players at all, just not as dedicated to being in groups all of the time.
>Why does a "casual" need solo content?<
I think anyone that falls into either category (1) or (2) - meaning almost all players - needs solo content. Quests that can be done alone at-level and mobs that can be killed alone at-level. Not heroic groups where one mob can be peeled off and killed with great effort by certain classes. In other words content intended to be done solo. Less that half of the game to be sure but more than a trivial amount. Less rewarding in gear and experience but *somewhat* rewarding so that players don't feel that they are wasting their time. I may be wrong - it happens - but I am convinced that we can include more than the pure "groupies" in our base without compromising our core principles and *without* becoming anything even remotely resembling a modern MMO. I am equally convinced this will be good for Pantheon both financially and in keeping the servers more populated.
If you design a game where people CAN solo people WILL solo. Im not talking about emergent gameplay soloing as there was in EQ...The content was not designed to be solo'd, the players just figured out how to do it and thats fine. Only certain classes could do it well and it was by far the slowest way to level but was at least a viable playstyle. If you DESIGN content to be solo'd than the vast majority of players will solo that content, its human nature to take the path of least resistance. This will just lead to a mad solo dash to end game then max toons going back to camp gear and hurting the actual groups that are leveling from group content. I hope VR just designs the game as they have said, as a group centric PVE MMO...and let the players figure out how to solo content.
Everquest did this fine.
Make some classes better at soloing, so the loners can play that way if they want. Make some classes better for grouping so socialites can play that way if they want. I'm sure they're doing this. EQ1 was great about allowing casuals and hardcores to play the same game, especially at launch, as some race/class combos were hard and took longer, some were easy and leveled faster. Hopefully they'll do something like that again. Plus, casual gaming is awesome because there is a never ending supply of content. By the time they catch up to the hardcore guys on the cutting edge (at least at launch), there will probably be multiple new expansions, and while the hardcore folks are working on those, the casuals essentially have new content and expansions working the end game of the original game that the hardcores have moved beyond. Yeah, they're behind, but I've never met a casual that cared as long as they were progressing and having fun with friends. If the game is fun, casuals will play it. if the game is challenging, hardcores will play it. EQ was both.
Seriously, just copy EQ1 in general theory design. No game since has been made to appeal to casual and hardcore games within a group oriented setting. And soloability is important, you have to have at least a few classes capable of that playstyle, but it's never remotely close to the most efficient unless you're farming. Farming mats or doing a solo camp for a rare spawn is necessary. Sometimes people need to play alone. Solo play as a legitimate means of experience advancement is not important. EQ did it right. You could solo, but it would take you an age to level up solo. Nobody solo'd in early EQ for xp. Only for farming. And I hope this game is created with the same concept in mind. If you want to progress in levels at a reasonable pace, group up.
Krixus said:Beefcake said:Or we can stop categorizing each other into "casual" and "hard core" and acting like each other side is the bane of all games.
Instead of trying to get VR to create content for each of these categories, just let VR create their game as intended and let the players play as they choose.
Agreed! Let the way people play be a product of the game and not the game be a product of the way people play.
I love both of these statements. I've always consider myself a casual player but not necessarily with the stigma that sometimes gets attached to it. To me, being a casual player does NOT mean you don't play often, it doesn't mean you don't aspire to achieve late game gear or achievements, it doesn't mean you don't spend much of your spare time researching game mechanics and fight strategies, it doesn't mean you don't crave the social interaction that an MMO can deliver. Being casual to me just means you take a more leisurely and deliberate pace to achieving all of the above and aren't rushing to end game without stopping once in awhile to smell the roses.
I think the indications thus far are that Pantheon will be a good home for people with both a "casual" and "hard core" approach to their gaming. However, I suspect that the players who will find it's not a game for them are those who want the quick, easy, forgiving game experience. That is different than casual, to me.
urgatorbait
As a pretty dedicated cleric can i emphasise --> NO SOLO CONTENT!!!! you ever tried to solo (anything besides undead) as cleric? its a ... slow process :P
I would prefer that 6 months down the line i still don't recognise the landscape around me because all i see are my tanks backside and the trusty healthbars!
>I would prefer that 6 months down the line i still don't recognise the landscape around me because all i see are my tanks backside and the trusty healthbars!<
I would hate a game like this, but maybe your tanks have more attractive arses than what I am used to!
Will there be a canine race? That would be perfect - every now and then I could sniff the tank's arse and relieve that instinctive craving.
Cleric soloing will depend on class design, of course. On one extreme is the Midgard healer from DAOC that on a good day could solo a gray. Slowly. On another extreme are a wide variety of "modern" cleric classes that even if specced to focus on healing could still solo well - killing more slowly than a pure dps build but very hard to kill.
dorotea said:I agree with Mortam in essentially every respect.
The point doesn't arise only at maximum levels and only in respect to raids, however.
This very much will be a group content focused game, as Xilshale said. Probably not at the beginning as they give people a chance to learn the ropes, make friends and join guilds but certainly after the starting zone if not earlier.
Since a lot of the focus will be on the journey not the destination as mentioned in several posts above, and the emphasis will be that Pantheon does not start at maximum level, to me "casual player" applies a lot more broadly than "maximum level player that doesn't have top gear and may not want to raid in any case". It includes players that will want to log in and roam around and enjoy things and group some of the time (why else be here) but not group all of the time. So, back to one of my hot buttons. Keeping this player will be easier with a significant amout of solo content even though our core principles may dictate that it be less than half of the content, give inferior gear to group content and not provide for leveling at the same speed as group content.
We want to emphasize group content but a one-dimensional game is far more limited in who it can attract and keep. A game that includes some real solo content for *them* ((sneers visibly in the direction of the hoi polloi)) is more likely to succeed whereas an idealogically pure game that is 90% group content is more likely to ...not succeed.
You have to read between the lines a bit , but it's easy to see that there will be some classes that if played with skill can solo reasonably effectively. The content will be built with groups in mind but a little ingenuity goes a long way.
They have said also that casual players will be able to advance . Put an hour in and advance an hours worth. (or die a lot and not advance.)
Please note that I do not disagree with the idea of Pantheon as a niche game not a wowkiller with the focus on group content and the many other nice features that got most of us to pledge and be in these forums. Where I am probably in the minority here is the strong belief that Pantheon can remain true to its principles while throwing enough content to the more casual player to keep them playing and paying and from a success/failure point of view casuals subscribing is a BIG plus - there are a LOT of them.