Before I even start, I know some people will flat out cry blasphemy, and I fully expect to get a beating.
So, I threw this idea out in another area and decided to post it in a new thread... My overall goal was to completely remove the rez system, as it is nothing more than a corpse of an idea that needs to be buried, with something that is more useful and still maintains the idea of death having an associated cost. Then the idea morphed into something different.
The Concept: The overarching concept is to convert XP into something more transactional, something that can be bought or sold, but never used to actually level... This new commodity can be used to charge spells or items, craft items, or rez yourself/others. Later on, as you become more powerful, you will have accumulated a certain level of upkeep in order to be badass; therefore, having a real need for the XP grind or becoming a great customer to the casual player who sells you his/her XP all bundled up nice for you to consume in mass quantities.
Mechanic: At a certain level, either via class quest or perception system, you can obtain the ability to attune to and therefore charge certain types of stones. The stones can be purchased, possibly looted from casters, and are simply slotted into a specialized slot on your paper doll. Charging the stones will require that you designate a certain percentage of your XP gain into it. Once full, it goes into your inventory and the next stone begins to fill up. Think the AA system, but with stones to spend instead of points.
Itemization/Usage: I'm just going to let people be creative here. Early on it won't have much use other than a replacement for rez. Later on... My thoughts are more in line with powering spells that normally require a gem as a reagent, used as a crafting reagent to create/empower/overpower an item, and powering some neato items(i.e. illusion rings).
In the end, I think rez needs to die. I really enjoyed the AA system, but even that system had an end. This system is ongoing and can power an economy system that engages all player types. It just needs to be done correctly...
Anyway my 2cp!
I've brought this up once before in another post (I forget which one) where people were talking about AA. I like the idea of being able to spend XP at max level on things like short term buffs, and other things you mentioned in your post. It gives a little extra something to do at maximum level, and gives you a reason to still go out and do things with people.
My first reaction is this:
After that is, I just want to know more about why you feel this way: "My overall goal was to completely remove the rez system, as it is nothing more than a corpse of an idea that needs to be buried"
What is it about rez spells that you feel is a corpse of an idea and how does turning exp into a commodity relate to resurrection at all? Are you suggesting you get rid of leveling entirely? The system proposed, as I understand it, can only lead into a dark pit of pay to win.
"Later on, as you become more powerful, you will have accumulated a certain level of upkeep in order to be badass" What does this mean in particular? What if someone goes on vacation? Do they lose abilities or power or ?
I just want to understand what this is all about...
Nordicwolf said:Before I even start, I know some people will flat out cry blasphemy, and I fully expect to get a beating.
So, I threw this idea out in another area and decided to post it in a new thread... My overall goal was to completely remove the rez system, as it is nothing more than a corpse of an idea that needs to be buried, with something that is more useful and still maintains the idea of death having an associated cost. Then the idea morphed into something different.
The Concept: The overarching concept is to convert XP into something more transactional, something that can be bought or sold, but never used to actually level...
First, I'm failing real bad at seeing the connection between getting rid of the rez system and using XP for something more transactional rather than using XP to level.
This new commodity can be used to charge spells or items, craft items, or rez yourself/others.
Second, you want to get rid of the rez system but then you want to use XP to rez players. I guess possibly a better explanation could make things more clear.
If XP could be bought and sold as a commodity I fear we would be polluted with XP farmers (24/7 bots slaughtering low level mobs to sell for real money). People would store XPs on alts to hit the new level cap one minute after an expansion comes out. I think your idea of using excess XP to charge items or spells has merit, but I would be wary of allowing them to be traded.
I recall, in everquest Necromancers had an abiity to "rez" through the use of essence emeralds. I think the way it worked was- you could be brought back to your body, but with no exp made up.
However, the exp would go into the creation of an essence emerald- that could be used in the future to rez with exp returned to the player upon whom the emerald was used. So if necro had collected a bunch of essence emeralds, he could essentially rez players with exp return.
It sounds to melike you are talking about this kind of mechanic, but expanded, where the essence emerald in this example could be used alternatively; like in crafting where the sould essence would be imbued into the ring/sword/what-have-you to create a something else.
Or the essence in the emerald could be consumed- possibly like the old school, 1930's, breaking of amphor capsules under the nose of one recently fainted to revive them so could a higher player break the essence emerald and ...snort....it then also gaining some benefit. (temporary super Int boost for Ogres?, temporary sta boost for humans a-la the 60's recreational use of amyl-nitrate?)
I think it would take away from class inter-depencency since to me it sounds like a mechanic where you could temporarily achive what the other class has or "the great balancer" taking my assumption to its extreme. I am not in favor of class balancing, but that is another topic. am I close?
Interesting idea and it is good to toss out ideas that seem a bit ...unusual. If the developers adopt part of even a single unusual idea this pays for all.
I am not sure I understand the concept of never having any rezzes - I don't think you mean it in the sense (adopted by a number of games and never very persuasively) that when you fall you are just unconscious not dead.
I am sure I understand the basic concept of xp as a commodity although what it has to do with rezzing escapes me. I suspect it works best after hitting maximum level as a means to do something with all the xp that no longer is useful. I always feel that it is such a WASTE - a mob gives its life and we can't even use the experience. If we could use the xp that would be better although selling it strikes me as a poor idea for this game - we don't really need mechanics to encourage and facilitate power leveling.
Let's look at a traditional use for experience at maximum level - the AA type system. That also uses experience that otherwise would be wasted and allows us to customize characters so that every ((insert name of class)) isn't exactly like every other ((insert name of class)). If a system along the lines you posit doesn't do that at least as well as an AA-type system I am afraid I prefer the latter.
Evening All,
I knew I didn't give a great explanation yesterday. My contact lenses were pitching a fit and I rushed through the post. So sorry for that aspect.
Power leveling/buying levels:
One thing I wanted to address right off is that you would never be able to power level by transferring the XP directly to your level progression. It's merely a way to siphon off a portion of your XP gain into a stone/crystal to be used for other things.
Resurrection:
Why I don't like the spell: If there was only one version of the spell, I don't think I would dislike the system so much. The problem to me is that people get particularly touchy about which class gets which version and when. Then there are those that absolutely must have the highest level of resurrection when they die. On top of that, the game is littered with corpses that the servers have to handle and video cards have to render if they don't have the ability to hide corpses. So, to me, I just think the system is less helpful than intended and needs a new mechanic.
Rez for Rez?: Yes and no... Let's call it a Resuscitate. Manouk is really close to what I'm imagining, except you charge the stone ahead of time with your own XP or buy a stone off of somebody else that used their XP to charge the stone. You simply slot the stone and upon death given the option to reconnect your soul back to your body. Alternatively, somebody could use a stone on your corpse to return your soul back to your body. If neither options are available within say 30 min, you return to physical form at your bind point and eat the XP loss that goes with an official death. I know some people won't like the fact that you have to use XP to get XP back or that you do not get to litter the world with a corpse. It's a real death penalty that makes you consider the reality in advance and plan for it...
Alternate Uses/Upkeep:
Alternate Uses: My thoughts regarding this are related to the fact that, at higher levels, you might have quite a few stones laying around so I just threw out the idea of expanding the usage to charging items/spells, crafting, or other recreation uses that Manouk suggested :)
Upkeep: This is simply related to the possibility of having quite a few items or spells at higher levels that require a charge to get enhanced effects/buffs; therefore, an upkeep. This upkeep would stop when you aren't logged in with that character or using the item that requires a charge. Think of items that have spells or procs assigned to them and charging them like in Skyrim/ESO, except you are not charging them with the souls of slaughtered creatures. You are charging them with XP obtained from slaughtering those creatures.
AA's vs Upkeep: After some thought, I would actually like both myself :) I just got really bored with AAs after a while and I think the upkeep system would keep me engaged as long as it wasn't too steep and also having the ability to make some cash off of charging stones would be a nice perk.
Slippery Slopes:
Anything that is not thoroughly investigated and poorly implemented turns out to be a disaster in the end. As most do, I see it all the time at work :)
Anyhoo, I think I'm up to 4cp now.
I won't lie, I'm not the biggest fan of these ideas but I DO support trying to come up with creative ways to approach age old traditions in MMOs. I am all for Pantheon or any new MMO to try and evolve and revolutionize EVERY aspect of the MMO genre. My ideas are quite different so I'm not going to derail this topic but I can appreciate the fact that you are looking at these features/systems differently.
I wouldn't use xp as a commodity because it doesn't sit right with the lore of RPGs (maybe 'lore' is the wrong term). You gain experience from doing something, as a result of an action, and it makes your character grow right then and there.
I think you could design the game with no rezzing and it would be fine/fun. But I think I'd keep them in game and change how death works. Without going into detail of this, the big change with rez I'd do is switch the classes that can rez. Instead of healers being the main rezzers I'd remove it from them and give it to other classes. Reason being, is I think this would add some nice strategy for when you are putting together a group. As most MMOs are you always need a healer so you will always have a rezzer. IF the healers can't rez then you won't always have a rezzer in group and you will have to decide should I try to find a rezzer? Can this group handle this dungeon without a rezzer?
Well now I am even more confused. How is this rez but not rez even close to as good for the community? You dislike rez but want everyone to have the capacity to do it...but you are being double penalized as well. Not only do you have to funnel exp that would have otherwise gone toward leveling, but you also lose MORE exp should you not fully charge up a revive or should you happen to sell or forget a stone in the bank. What happens if you level up when you were charging a stone? Does it then take even more exp to match your new level? Then there is the issue of what happens if you have some real life stuff come up and you have to leave the game? You just have to accept the death? What about raiding or other difficult group content? This heavily punishes them because not only will they die a lot learning and mastering an encounter, they would quickly run out of stones and suffer incredibly heavy exp losses.
NoobieDoo said:Without going into detail of this, the big change with rez I'd do is switch the classes that can rez. Instead of healers being the main rezzers I'd remove it from them and give it to other classes. Reason being, is I think this would add some nice strategy for when you are putting together a group. As most MMOs are you always need a healer so you will always have a rezzer. IF the healers can't rez then you won't always have a rezzer in group and you will have to decide should I try to find a rezzer? Can this group handle this dungeon without a rezzer?
Well, if you give it to the tanks or CC classes then you are in the same boat. If it goes to some of the DPS classes then those classes would have to suffer heavily in DPS to not have groups clamoring to have them. At least with rez belonging to the healers and you know you are bringing a healer, all DPS/CC/Tanks remain more or less equally viable to fill the spot in any group.
Having healers unable to resurrect isn't necessarily a violation of the laws of Gods and men, but it would be so jarring to so many people it would require a compelling reason which I do not really see. Having some non-healing classes able to resurrect makes sense and has ample precedent - ideally the dps or crowd control class that offers the fewest ancillary benefits to a group (buffs, run speed, feign death to prevent wipes, evac to prevent wipes, etc) would get this. Ideally with some basis in lore, the way a necromancer may be given the ability in some games because of the classes close association with death and the dead.
Evening folks,
Just curious, how many of you have actually had to rez piles of corpses over and over while trying to learn an encounter? How is that fun and how much time was lost that could have been spent learning the encounter if there was a simpler mechanic? Is it any more fun when your guildies and complete strangers drag bodies to your feet begging for a rez? It's a chore that consumes way too much game time for me :) As an exercise, I think everyone should start a log of how much time they spend managing death when the game releases. Then compare the time spent with how much XP could have been gained in that time frame.
As far as a double penalty for a rez but not a rez, the cost of convenience can be made up by removing the burden from the healer; thus, increasing overall efficacity. Unless you are the tank, the group simply keeps killing at a slower pace while you get your **** together and join in. With the traditional method, everything stops, unless you add utility, lowering overall dps. Which means, less XP over time... If you are going to tell me that there's no way that you can make up the XP loss in the time gained from that single death, then you aren't thinking at a macro level. And you aren't including the time returned for not having to manage death. Also, if you purchase a stone off of someone, then someone else is paying the XP penalty. At higher levels, you'll either have tons of coin or the ability to farm XP at a far greater rate, so it's safe to say you'll have plenty :)
I"m fully aware that people don't like this idea, but we need a new mechanic. We waste time managing it and even more time arguing over it. Time we could all spend getting XP, but not right now... We have nothing to play :)
Nordicwolf said:Evening folks,
Just curious, how many of you have actually had to rez piles of corpses over and over while trying to learn an encounter? How is that fun and how much time was lost that could have been spent learning the encounter if there was a simpler mechanic? Is it any more fun when your guildies and complete strangers drag bodies to your feet begging for a rez? It's a chore that consumes way too much game time for me :) As an exercise, I think everyone should start a log of how much time they spend managing death when the game releases. Then compare the time spent with how much XP could have been gained in that time frame.
As far as a double penalty for a rez but not a rez, the cost of convenience can be made up by removing the burden from the healer; thus, increasing overall efficacity. Unless you are the tank, the group simply keeps killing at a slower pace while you get your **** together and join in. With the traditional method, everything stops, unless you add utility, lowering overall dps. Which means, less XP over time... If you are going to tell me that there's no way that you can make up the XP loss in the time gained from that single death, then you aren't thinking at a macro level. And you aren't including the time returned for not having to manage death. Also, if you purchase a stone off of someone, then someone else is paying the XP penalty. At higher levels, you'll either have tons of coin or the ability to farm XP at a far greater rate, so it's safe to say you'll have plenty :)
I"m fully aware that people don't like this idea, but we need a new mechanic. We waste time managing it and even more time arguing over it. Time we could all spend getting XP, but not right now... We have nothing to play :)
I actually rather enjoyed the concept of corpse retrieval and trying to find a cleric for a rez back in EQ, often passively while still grouping as you had a few hours on online time to get the rez for your exp back. It brought more community interdependence. As to making raid wipe recovery easier, I think a much better solution would be mass resurrection. Not a spell any one healer could do on his/her own but after getting a "x" other healers back up they could channel a spell together to mass rez the rest of the raid. I'm not really sure it is much of a burden on a healer at all, as it's actually a pretty decent way to make money from people should one desire. I for one never had an issue with it on my cleric, but people can always say no when others beg/etc or go /anon as many healers end up doing anyway.
The idea is that death *should* sting. Corpse runs and exp loss are a big part of that. If you are loading exp to charge a stone in preparation for a death you are just moving the loss of exp from actually having to die to more or less "losing" the same as you would without death, and when you do die you can't get that exp back with an exp rez because you used the stone and have no corpse. It really depends on how much the death penalty is in this game (assuming you lose exp in this) as you would not be coming out with more exp due to no loss of time getting back to killing using EQ as an example, because you have to charge your stone again (so you keep the exp loss from death) where as in a rez based system you can run back to your corpse and find a rez to get that exp back and start killing at a lesser loss of time/progress (based on EQ exp loss, where a death was an hour+ exp). If that makes sense.
I like the idea of XP being a commodity, but only after we reach max level. This would inspire players to continue being active with running groups, helping others quest, etc. It wouldn't have to be anything huge either ... the smallest buff or added convenience would make it worth it. Maybe you can build up so much of it and then exchange it for faction credits, consumables, tokens, access keys ... whatever. Anything that incentivizes people to continue going out in the world and interacting with other players is a good idea, in my opinion.
Props for being creative, but I have fundamental issues with this.
1. I don't like systems that use XP as a currency. XP is "experience" or "learning," quite literally. Boiling it down to basics, I don't view XP as a "reward" per se for killing a monster. It means "I have done this difficult thing and I have learned from it. I am now a more experienced individual." It is not something that can be redeemed. It doesn't make sense to me to be like "I am going to forget this thing I learned so that I can acquire this new item." I know that's looking at it very literally, but that is the original concept behind XP anyway.
I understand you mentioned having a % of XP gained allocated to fill up a stone, like an AA system. Yes that is different, but it concerns me when you say it is something that could/should be bought or sold. That's where it loses me. I won't even go into how that could affect the economy because it doesn't make sense to me how things you have learned (XP) could ever be transacted to another character in any form. If it was just something that could only be used on yourself, that's one thing. At least with AA's, you are just unlocking perks and abiltiies. Your character is still "learning" and never losing XP aside from death penalties.
2. I don't like rez stones. Or any item in general that makes it easier for all classes to be able to rez. It decreases the value of classes that have rez abilities. I think trying to "get rid of rezzing completely" or just make it so that rezzing is no big deal is quite lazy tbh. There needs to be the right amount of low parts of the game in order to make the high parts more meaningful. While having fun is the main reason to play a game, I don't believe that they should be fun 100% of the time. Rez stones are just Easy buttons.
Nordicwolf said:Evening folks,
Just curious, how many of you have actually had to rez piles of corpses over and over while trying to learn an encounter? How is that fun and how much time was lost
Everyone knows you rez rezzers first!
In general I'm not for changes to the rez system as I loved what was in place during the early days of EQ.
Bazgrim said:Props for being creative, but I have fundamental issues with this.
1. I don't like systems that use XP as a currency. XP is "experience" or "learning," quite literally. Boiling it down to basics, I don't view XP as a "reward" per se for killing a monster. It means "I have done this difficult thing and I have learned from it. I am now a more experienced individual." It is not something that can be redeemed. It doesn't make sense to me to be like "I am going to forget this thing I learned so that I can acquire this new item." I know that's looking at it very literally, but that is the original concept behind XP anyway.
I understand you mentioned having a % of XP gained allocated to fill up a stone, like an AA system. Yes that is different, but it concerns me when you say it is something that could/should be bought or sold. That's where it loses me. I won't even go into how that could affect the economy because it doesn't make sense to me how things you have learned (XP) could ever be transacted to another character in any form. If it was just something that could only be used on yourself, that's one thing. At least with AA's, you are just unlocking perks and abiltiies. Your character is still "learning" and never losing XP aside from death penalties.
2. I don't like rez stones. Or any item in general that makes it easier for all classes to be able to rez. It decreases the value of classes that have rez abilities. I think trying to "get rid of rezzing completely" or just make it so that rezzing is no big deal is quite lazy tbh. There needs to be the right amount of low parts of the game in order to make the high parts more meaningful. While having fun is the main reason to play a game, I don't believe that they should be fun 100% of the time. Rez stones are just Easy buttons.
Although I am against xp as a commodity, I think we should clear xp up.
XP is not about learning. It's simply a system for incremental increases in character power. If you die and lose xp, you don't become less learned, you simply become incrementally less powerful.
So, buying xp from someone is no different than buying a new item. You are trading one measure of power (coin) for another measure of power (xp).
It's logically a sound exchange of resources. It's really no different than twinking an alt wiith coin or gear, which is simply moving a measure of power to an alt or another player.
However, I am still against it. It seems like a pay to win system.
At this point I do not see how this could relate to Pantheon and my first interpretation is it could be abused in some way that might take away from the overall direction of the game. I do see how at max level, it could be another option to discuss how to involve the player, right along side the "AA" system. But there are and probably will be other systems being considered at max level.
Call me old fashioned, but I still like to see rez spells needed as a part of the "keep classes unique" so that everyone has their own necessity.
Beefcake said:Bazgrim said:Props for being creative, but I have fundamental issues with this.
1. I don't like systems that use XP as a currency. XP is "experience" or "learning," quite literally. Boiling it down to basics, I don't view XP as a "reward" per se for killing a monster. It means "I have done this difficult thing and I have learned from it. I am now a more experienced individual." It is not something that can be redeemed. It doesn't make sense to me to be like "I am going to forget this thing I learned so that I can acquire this new item." I know that's looking at it very literally, but that is the original concept behind XP anyway.
I understand you mentioned having a % of XP gained allocated to fill up a stone, like an AA system. Yes that is different, but it concerns me when you say it is something that could/should be bought or sold. That's where it loses me. I won't even go into how that could affect the economy because it doesn't make sense to me how things you have learned (XP) could ever be transacted to another character in any form. If it was just something that could only be used on yourself, that's one thing. At least with AA's, you are just unlocking perks and abiltiies. Your character is still "learning" and never losing XP aside from death penalties.
2. I don't like rez stones. Or any item in general that makes it easier for all classes to be able to rez. It decreases the value of classes that have rez abilities. I think trying to "get rid of rezzing completely" or just make it so that rezzing is no big deal is quite lazy tbh. There needs to be the right amount of low parts of the game in order to make the high parts more meaningful. While having fun is the main reason to play a game, I don't believe that they should be fun 100% of the time. Rez stones are just Easy buttons.
Although I am against xp as a commodity, I think we should clear xp up.
XP is not about learning. It's simply a system for incremental increases in character power. If you die and lose xp, you don't become less learned, you simply become incrementally less powerful.
So, buying xp from someone is no different than buying a new item. You are trading one measure of power (coin) for another measure of power (xp).
It's logically a sound exchange of resources. It's really no different than twinking an alt wiith coin or gear, which is simply moving a measure of power to an alt or another player.
However, I am still against it. It seems like a pay to win system.
There are many different legitimate interpretations of the word. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_point) It's just kinda a metaphor to explain why I am against XP as a form of currency. That's just my preference. But I am supportive of XP loss as part of the death penalty and I agree that's where the metaphor falls apart. It's something I'll think about more. I could conceive of some magical explanation for infusing an item with knowledge or XP, but the justification of rezzing to pay someone else's death penalty is just a turn off for me.
My main issue is that rez stones (regardless of how you acquire them) reduce the punishment for dying and therefore reduce the thrill associated with being in risky situations, especially if they can be traded between players and used by any class. So I cannot support any system that involves that sort of thing. I don't understand the logic of "corpse retrieval and rezzing takes too much time - think of all the XP that could be earned during that time." Like, that's the whole point. Coming up with a way to eliminate that downtime undermines the whole concept of risk vs. reward. The motivation to not die should be so that you don't miss out on xp opportunities.
Bazgrim said:There are many different legitimate interpretations of the word. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_point) It's just kinda a metaphor to explain why I am against XP as a form of currency. That's just my preference. But I am supportive of XP loss as part of the death penalty and I agree that's where the metaphor falls apart. It's something I'll think about more. I could conceive of some magical explanation for infusing an item with knowledge or XP, but the justification of rezzing to pay someone else's death penalty is just a turn off for me.
I always took it as experience points were an intangible sense of your character learning and growing stronger, as you said earlier. But when you die and lose that experience, it's kind of like failing a math test in real life. You thought you learned from your experiences fighting kobolds but turns out you forgot you had to carry the 2 so you have to relearn and go over what you thought you knew again.
Iksar said:Bazgrim said:There are many different legitimate interpretations of the word. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_point) It's just kinda a metaphor to explain why I am against XP as a form of currency. That's just my preference. But I am supportive of XP loss as part of the death penalty and I agree that's where the metaphor falls apart. It's something I'll think about more. I could conceive of some magical explanation for infusing an item with knowledge or XP, but the justification of rezzing to pay someone else's death penalty is just a turn off for me.
I always took it as experience points were an intangible sense of your character learning and growing stronger, as you said earlier. But when you die and lose that experience, it's kind of like failing a math test in real life. You thought you learned from your experiences fighting kobolds but turns out you forgot you had to carry the 2 so you have to relearn and go over what you thought you knew again.
Lol that's a very good way of looking at it. I like that.
Yah, i don't like the XP stone things cuase this for one i tihnk would kill the Progeny system they have in place simply becuase a max out lvl character i think would rather Fill up stones and trade them for money, which there is nothing wrong with that, but also is a easy farm with very little effort to make money, and also i can see the people who sell things is money taking a huge advantage in this as well, like how in WoW gold was along with basically every other game so there's really no stopping that portion to a point. but the exp stones we can. But back to the point I really do think it would almost instantly kill the progeny system cept for the slight few who are set in stone to use it like myself. This is just my opinion
Beefcake said:Although I am against xp as a commodity, I think we should clear xp up.
XP is not about learning. It's simply a system for incremental increases in character power. If you die and lose xp, you don't become less learned, you simply become incrementally less powerful.
Although this is simply semantics, and we're not here to really argue or discuss semantics, the concept of xp IS based on learning. That's why it is called 'experience' - the observation of facts and events or in other words...learning. When you die and lose xp, YES you don't become 'less learned'. Why? Because you are still learning, to next time to try to avoid whatever it was that led you to your death. The concept is what I think people are explaining and why it doesn't make sense to be able to bottle it up and be used as a commodity.
But you're not necessarily wrong either, you just appear to be discussing its more literal sense in video games and how it basically functions. Learning in real life is a very complex process, in games it has to take on a very basic, primitive form.
edit. I'm not arguing that you couldn't magically create a stone that holds knowledge and whoever holds the stone and 'activates' it gains its knowledge and gains its 'xp'. It's just that I would think the main idea of these games are to gain the experience our selves by doing whatever task is required to gain that xp.