Because in most games the vast majority of raid gear is no drop, dungeons with decent drops are never abandoned. Even with very good raid gear people still need to gear out alts and get items to sell. I'm not sure this topic is even an issue.
I always did dungeons even when raid geared because of my up and comming alt or a friend im helping/grinding AA's. Where did you experience this issue?
Personally, this is one of the reasons I hope they go hardcore again with tradeskills. The Tradeskill sphere is so underrated in terms of time spent played. I hope they adopt a healthy mix of EQ, VG, and most importantly Star Wars for their systems. They're a wise crew, so I'm sure they'll be implementing mechanics we've never seen before in tradeskills as well (I guess they already have with the Forges deep in dungeons/thermophillic environments etc).
Taledar said:AA"S, please jesus AA"s or well have to cry ourselves to sleep every night.
I hope they go the EQ route with AAs. Wait an expansion or two until we feel like we've mastered things, like we've really gotten somewhere. Then suddenly BAM! Here's about a berjillion more hours worth of grinding to do.
Zaide said:With a stronger focus on adventuring and dungeons I suspect that raid mobs will not drop gear that fills every slot. I expect some raid loot to be best in slot, but if we look at early EQ, most of the loot from say Nagafen/Vox is actually pretty bad minus the Cloak of Flames & Runed Bolster Belt.
That could be a theme we see in various forms for each expansion. Maybe at first raid mobs drop cloaks/belts/rings but in the first expansion we see breastplates, helmets, weight reduction bags and clicky items. In all other slots dungeon or crafted gear remains the best.
+1 great idea
Raids are nice but shouldn't drop full sets of gear like WoW. I'm hoping that Pantheon will be more group than item based. Obtaining a good piece of gear in EQ really meant something, not like today where there are so many options and ways to obtain gear that when you do loot something it's expected.
Pyye said:Sounds like the conversation is just gear focused. What about needing special drops for crafting? What about perception quests that specifically require you to go into the deepest dungeons for a nice reward. How about specific colored artifacts at certain camps within a dungeon, or maybe just a % chance off any mobs within that dungeon? They could run "hot" zones like they did in EQ where you get a 15% bump in experience. There are still a lot of options to bring people into dungeons.
Exactly..I plan on being a crafter, hopefully we crafters won't be forgotten in the race for gear drops. :) After all we might just need that particular crafting component that drops in a dungeon or raid, to make that fancy coveted shield or boots that you need. :) Cana
Reafwalk said:Taledar said:AA"S, please jesus AA"s or well have to cry ourselves to sleep every night.
I hope they go the EQ route with AAs. Wait an expansion or two until we feel like we've mastered things, like we've really gotten somewhere. Then suddenly BAM! Here's about a berjillion more hours worth of grinding to do.
From the FAQ:
"Are there plans for Alternate Advancement (AA) paths? Something similar may be added post-launch but currently we’re focused on primary class advancement through leveling, skills, abilities, spells, and items."
Also see this video (around the 47:38 mark) for more info from Brad about AA's.
My hope is that there is a need for spcialized gear. I would like to see raids be another avenue for gear that is of similar quality to dugeon gear instead of be a strict upgrade. I would like to see a situation where you might go to Amberfrost to farm for gear that will help make it easier to survive in a fiery environment and vice versa. Ideally you might do the easier part of the ice raids and fire raids so that you can get gear that makes it more likely to be successful in the deeper parts of each raid.
One thing you could do is to make raids simply drop more items, whether they be gear, trade items, progression items, skill unlocks, whatever...
If you can make a four group raid roughly as difficult for four groups as a one group encounter is for one group, then the loot could be similar in quality, just not quantity. The raid group would get 4-6 items per take down, as opposed to the group getting one. The advantage to being in a raid is there will be a selection of items as well as there being more of them. And their distribution (in a guild) could be controlled/negotiated/bartered so that those that need/deserve the items have a better chance of getting one that suits them. Also, raids could be used for other progression triggers like: unlocking, keying, faction, quest steps, ect...
To get good gear, you would be best off in a raid, but a group could do it too.
EDIT: Thats not to say there couldn't be a few "better" items that drop from specific, very diffcult raid bosses. But in general, the above approach could keep groups relevant for a long, long time.
How about another way of making dungeon still valuable is let say you defeat a boss but he gives you a "broken item" and you have to go to certain dungeons to restore them, or anything like this that way just beating the raid boss is only the beginning of the quest to get your "raid gear" you want. and it could even be what you gather to make it reflects on what stats it priotizes, sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Raiding should be hard and contested. Replacing all group content items with full raid gear should take longer than the time between expansions. In EQ, even the most hardcore raiders in the best guild did not have best in slot everything. At least back in the early years when everything was contested.
Beyond that, raid gear should not be so much more powerful than group gear that it creates a massive imbalance and trivializes all other content.
Between balancing gear, and making it fully contested, this will be a non-issue. What will make it a problem is when raid content is opened up to everyone via instancing, and everyone begins to expect a chance at the best items, trivializing all that came before.
Overcrowding and too much competition are indeed problems that have plagued both MMOs with and without instancing. If there are not enough players around, it can be hard to group and socialize. But if there are too many people around, the world feels crowded and people have to wait for encounters or spawns, or even compete for them. Our answer to this issue is twofold: first, primarily during the later phases of beta, we will determine how many people online at one time in our game world feels right -- neither under-crowded nor overcrowded. Second, if and when a server’s/shard’s population grows too large, we will launch a new shard with incentives for players to spread out. And with our harnessing of cloud hosted servers/shards, this is actually something we can do dynamically, easily, and quickly.
Either give raids only a few top of the line items for a few slots, or keep them only lightly contested at worst. Let the raid difficulty be the deciding factor in who can do it or not, not some sense of elitism and dominating content by a very limited few. Top level PvE should not suddenly become a harsh PvP experience.
Aside from that, dungeons will likely always matter. Especially for the economy as things like FBSS and GEBs were always excellent items.
This post was edited by Iksar at March 9, 2017 10:29 PM PST
Rengrave said:My hope is that there is a need for spcialized gear. I would like to see raids be another avenue for gear that is of similar quality to dugeon gear instead of be a strict upgrade. I would like to see a situation where you might go to Amberfrost to farm for gear that will help make it easier to survive in a fiery environment and vice versa. Ideally you might do the easier part of the ice raids and fire raids so that you can get gear that makes it more likely to be successful in the deeper parts of each raid.
Fortunately, your hope is already in the game.
Dulla summed it up pretty well. The game is already designed in such a way that this will not be an issue.
Edit: thread's broken again - back we go into the forum abyss lol. help, Kilsin!
Bazgrim said:I think we need to remove the term "best in slot" from our vocabulary when discussing Pantheon. It simply does not apply to the design here.
From The Pantheon Difference: "In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
Best in slot for Particular Environment?
BeaverBiscuit said:Bazgrim said:I think we need to remove the term "best in slot" from our vocabulary when discussing Pantheon. It simply does not apply to the design here.
From The Pantheon Difference: "In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
Best in slot for Particular Environment?
Haha I'm sure there will be end up being stuff like "the best 2H mace for a Paladin fighting undead in a Frigid climate." That's what makes items desirable. There will probably just be disclaimers usually :P