Liav said:You're completely misinterpreting what I mean by "devastating psychological consequences". People getting burned out from running the same raids over and over again for months or years, AND THEN QUITTING is pretty devastating. It's horrible game design, plain and simple.
Liav said:I guess I just don't really see "mudflation" as a bad thing, necessarily. What's the point of progression if you never become objectively more powerful than before?
You are absolutely correct. Mudflation in and of itself is not a bad thing, on the contrary it is necessary, even crucial for a game to survive. You understand that if players do not have new goals, new heights to strive for they will lose interest and stop playing.
@Wolfsong
An entire game can't thrive on roughly 5-10,000 players, which given the state of EQ progression servers is about the best you can expect in terms of people interested in killing 17 year old content over and over again.
The consequences of Linkamus' proposition are far more dire than you realize. I understand that Pantheon is a niche game but thinking that people will enjoy killing the exact same dragon literally hundreds of times is painfully naive.
Vandraad said:Liav said:I guess I just don't really see "mudflation" as a bad thing, necessarily. What's the point of progression if you never become objectively more powerful than before?
You are absolutely correct. Mudflation in and of itself is not a bad thing, on the contrary it is necessary, even crucial for a game to survive. You understand that if players do not have new goals, new heights to strive for they will lose interest and stop playing.
Liav said:@Wolfsong
An entire game can't thrive on roughly 5-10,000 players, which given the state of EQ progression servers is about the best you can expect in terms of people interested in killing 17 year old content over and over again.
Liav said:
The consequences of Linkamus' proposition are far more dire than you realize. I understand that Pantheon is a niche game but thinking that people will enjoy killing the exact same dragon literally hundreds of times is painfully naive.
Wolfsong said:Progression, be it in levels, areas, gear, etc requires new goals and such be introduced.
However, that needn't be at the cost of old content or gear becoming obsolete and forever useless, either.
You can have both.
Older MMOs did a good job of keeping older, even lower level gear, relevant for a while. In FFXI, I had a pair of level 14 gloves that remained very useful for 20+ levels. Acquiring that gear required me to go into an area I'd long-since out-leveled in order to defeat the enemy that dropped it, and it took several tries, because it wasn't a 100% drop. It didn't bother me that I was in an older zone, which I'd been through many times already, going for lower-level gear. It was still fun, and I still enjoyed the experience. Of course, at the same time, I was striving for something better to replace that piece.
Ok..so you have an example where 1 pair of lvl 14 gloves lasted for 20 levels. Great. But now you're lvl 60..do you want to be wearing that same set of gloves? Do you really want a game where what you got at lvl 14 ended up being the best in slot for the entire life of the game? Would you play a game for years where the gear you got even before the first expansion was released never needed to be replaced?
Does going back to an old zone to kill 1 mob really keep that zone 'useful'? I look back on the Wizard epic and some of the places that quest required us to go. Kedge Keep? That zone was crap because the code that handled movement in 3 dimensions was garbage and the loot tables were also crap. Nobody fought Phinegel Autropos because, ontop of the horrible zone mechanics, his loot table was garbage. But Sony thought 'lets make this zone useful again' and put epic quest drops on Phinny. Did that make the zone useful again? No. Nobody grouped there. Nobody went there to xp. It was only when someone needed an epic drop did anybody ever show up. That isn't keeping zone useful.
Zones will fall into disuse. It cannot be prevented...only delayed.
Liav said:@Wolfsong
An entire game can't thrive on roughly 5-10,000 players, which given the state of EQ progression servers is about the best you can expect in terms of people interested in killing 17 year old content over and over again.
The consequences of Linkamus' proposition are far more dire than you realize. I understand that Pantheon is a niche game but thinking that people will enjoy killing the exact same dragon literally hundreds of times is painfully naive.
Which is why we have the Progeny system and other mechanics and features that we will be putting in place to mitigate a lot of that, not to mention the horizontal progression that Brad has specifically spoken about to take more load off this end game build up.
We will lose players who hit max level and get bored, that is just a given in life, especially if players race to the end bypassing content just to get there first, we can't please everyone and we don't intend to try, we will, however, be creating meaningful content, zones, progression and ways to follow different paths to get to the top, then once you are there and maxed out and eventually have nothing left to do, die...then reroll as your son or daughter, keep a couple/few of your best skill bonuses/possible attribute increases and start all over again, this time taking a different path to the top and being slightly better at a few things.
If people still don't like that then that is perfectly fine, this game might not be for them and we wish them well and hope they find a game that better suits their needs :)
I personally see AAs and Progency being two different paths for two different types of players (if both paths could be relatively balanced in a meaningful way). Some players prefer not to kill off their character and progress instead through AA grinding, while others may prefer to kill off their character through progency and gain bonuses that way. Two different character gains at "end game" beyond loot, both could be viable. I'm a little concerned with the level of Progency mentioned and how little AA is mentioned.
spyderoptik said:I personally see AAs and Progency being two different paths for two different types of players (if both paths could be relatively balanced in a meaningful way). Some players prefer not to kill off their character and progress instead through AA grinding, while others may prefer to kill off their character through progency and gain bonuses that way. Two different character gains at "end game" beyond loot, both could be viable. I'm a little concerned with the level of Progency mentioned and how little AA is mentioned.
Hopefully an AA system if implemented would transfer over to the progeny in some shape or form.
I am not sure if this is the right thread but I have to say although I don't fully understand how the Progeny system will work I am not a fan of killing off my character. I hope that this is not something the game mechanics will force me to do in order to remain competitive for end game raiding and grouping. I would rather get on and work on getting xp every day for AA's then I would want to start over. I am not much for alts other then making up someone to play with my friends at different level ranges. I never really max them out or take them seriously but I am sure I am the minority. I pretty much focus on my main all the time. Running groups for my guild mates so they can get whatever upgrades possible so that we can be just a little bit tougher the next time we face X mob. People always need to finish some quest, get some drop or need to get somewhere with some help. That is more of my thing than starting over.
Liav said:I guess I just don't really see "mudflation" as a bad thing, necessarily. What's the point of progression if you never become objectively more powerful than before?
Someone needs to brush up on the EQ paradox. If you don't get that...
Another thing to consider which I have brought up in other discussion is what the impact of raiding has on the guilds and raid force.
If you have a classic Everquest system then recrutiing a raid force ealy on is pretty easy. If that same escalation of difficulty occurs then you need to take the same raid force through the content in progression to ensure they are geared up enough to do the next higher fights on and on. Once you are a few expansions into the game however and you have lost some of your raid force due to real life, burn out, schedule changes, or any other factor the recruitment effort can be strenous. You actually have to consider doing lower level raids to gear up your recruits to continue any level of raid progression. Some guilds would actually have off night raiding with their alts, recruits, and friends at lower level dungeons to in a sense create a farm system to keep them operating.
If however you immediately obsolete the content and gear with the new expansiont that raises your level and easy to obtain gear is enough to get you started then recruitment is much more flexible and you can then progress. Players can actually consider going to their alts, using the progeny system, or other options to keep the game fresh for them.
Guild management wise the obsolete progression is easier to recruit for, but on the flip side the turnover is higher.
Personally I think the escalating progression is the best way to go despite the recruitment efforts needed for the stronger sense of accomplishment, the greater risk = greater rewards/prestige, and the bonds that come from this.
From someone who actually played at the end game of EQ2 I find it very frustrating when I have put in a years’ worth of work and on day one of the next expansion mindless quest rewards are giving away items like candy to everyone that are equal to or marginally better than the same items we just raided all year to get. I am not saying there should not be some upgrades and a continual challenge to acquire more and better gear. I just do not think it should be that drastic. I believe some of the best items from the previous expansion should just be good for longer. Replacing my raid armor with quest gear on day one of the expansion makes me sad. Leveling 10 levels in three days makes me sad. Killing the first half of the raid content in a few weeks makes me sad. Say what you want for forward progression but I do not know who really likes this roller coaster.
In EQ2 even items that could have been good the following expansion, like Trakanon’s shield with the clickie hate buff got nerfed as soon as the next expansion came out. Had they left this item alone it would have been something tanks just had to go back and get even expansions later if they did not have it. Even if they would not use it full time they could have always used the buff. This would generate need to return to old content.
Some items need to retain their value after the expansion.
Rewind to EQ1, Amulet of Necropotence. People went back for years to POF for this item and it still sold for ridiculous amounts of money when I left in 2004. Something again every fat and mismatched armor wearing tank needed, on top of everyone else who just wanted the cool factor.
I can’t explain which type of progression is what or what it really all means but I can tell you that we had a lot more fun playing EQ1. I just hope we recapture a similar type of value system.