Forums » Crafting

Gathering, Looting or Deconstruction?

    • 45 posts
    April 10, 2015 11:38 PM PDT

    The source of our crafting materials is perhaps the most relevant indicator on how valuable crafting items will be.  Below are some pros and cons of each systems.  Below that I will write my opinion.  Please discuss.  

    ******

    Harvesting Nodes:

    Pros:

    Extremely common system made most popular by World of Warcraft.    

     

    Materials are easy to collect and collecting them poses little risk to the player.  This allows for easy "grinding".

    Cons:

    Players can collect materials above their level simply by avoiding mobs.

    Materials are of little worth as they are easily obtained.

    Nodes create visual clutter that can break immersion.  (Why is that glowing ore node in the middle of that farmer's field?")

    **** 

    Dropped Crafting Materials:

    Pros:

    Items dropped retain value as they require "risk" to obtain.  

    Creates a greater feeling of accomplishment when completing the item.

    Crafting components are collected often while grouping.  (Except when farming low level crafting components)

    Cons:

    Promotes Farming. 

    Higher level players may contest lower level players for mobs.  

    Slows how fast players can level any given trade skill.  (This may not be a Con).

    Deconstruction

    Pros:

    Removes unused items from the game.  This preserves the value of drops.

    Crafted items retain value as they require items of value to create.

    Crafting components are obtained through playing the game instead of farming.

    Cons:

    Crafting is much more expensive than other methods.

    Players may roll on loot that is not for their class solely to deconstruct it.

    Slows how fast players can level any given trade skill.  (This may not be a Con).

    ******

    My Opinion: 

    Personally I feel crafting nodes break immersion.  While I can understand skinning an animal to obtain leather I cannot abide nodes spawning in areas that make no logical sense.  The same skin could just as easily be dropped by the animal to accomplish the same thing.  I would much prefer a system that is a combination of Drops and Deconstruction.  In this way many of my crafting components can be collected while I am socially grouping.  I don't like the feeling of logging in for the day just to run a circuit between nodes while I read guild chat and try not to fall asleep.

     

    Please reply with your Thoughts & Opinions. 

    The best way to get the crafting system you want is to discuss it before it's made.  Not fix it after the fact.

     

    -Baulkin


    This post was edited by Baulkin at April 11, 2015 4:41 AM PDT
    • 353 posts
    April 11, 2015 4:41 AM PDT

    Search for: I hate Whack a Nodes for a longer discussion from a couple weeks ago in another thread.

     

    Kiz~

    • 1581 posts
    April 11, 2015 8:03 AM PDT

    1. Scaled (not total) trivial loot code for items to prevent farming. (A level 65 in a newbie zone killing all the spiderlings for silk, will get some, but at a lower rate of drop- a level 1 player will get more possible drops- scaled to each level-)

    2. Unique/particular items off all levels of mobs in a particular dungeon/zone (dungeon/zone is 25-35, all mobs drop ore X, salts Y, skin Z- with appropriate percentage-of-drop factor)

    hopefully player will "get" the idea that they can craft up some skill levels during down time or looking for groups- and continue to do so as they level so when say, an expansion comes out (at a year and a half intervals *ahem*) with a really nice multi-quested shawl that is still pretty good at initial levels- will not feel so far behind in, say fletching, because they would have had the opportunity to do so along the way from the drops in the 25-35 level dungeon.

    3. New Players joining in later expansions and wanting to catch-up in crafting will not be hindered, but will realize the slow-going of it and want to befriend or interact with newbies- the newbies all of a sudden becoming viable business men to earn money for spells or armors  to window-shop browse in the fancy bazaar, or Tunnel outpost in the far away land they have heard people speak of and wonder what things could these be and what sort of things the cheap interesting lore items might be for.

    The pros and cons of 3.

    Pros: Guilds will be interested in including younger players to the ranks

    Cons: The Ferenghi- who wish not to adventure- may wish to remain young forever to hide their evil-ebaying plans to exploit the crafting and have one mule selling all items from their armies of various leveled ferengi throughout the zones. 

    Drops:

    Pros: all get some- if the skill level advances obtained in crafting may then encouraging one to level to the next skill set items and the person will not farm but instead be inclined to move on.

    Cons: possible over farming

     

    Deconsruction:

    Pros: a crafter can avoid most of 1,2, and 3 by taking their old silk choker, and cutting it up to produce the silk thread- needed for the current recipe, instead of farming the newbie zones at their high level for less drops. having the old piece of armor, and having a better piece in mind or on the way- would allow the use old the deconstructed item from the constructed piece.

    So- deconstruct from constructed piece, or deconstruct from dropped piece. like an iron sword being melted down to iron ore, to be used with another ore to craft another sword.  (hilts excluded)

    cons: Forced construction, in order to deconstruct, also farming.

     

    Nodes:

    Pros: none

    Cons: lack of immersion

     

    Challenge: Obscure "left-field" crafted items that allow bridge skill ups in non-character specific skill set. The only example I can think of is the fish-bone dart tool in EQ1. it was a low to mid-level skill smithed item, that when combined with the waste from a lunch item (fish bones) in a fletching kit, created fish-bone darts, useable only by other classes.

    I remember being in a group when medding- spamming a little in chat for my fish lunch crafting, then hauling out the fletching kit and spamming a little of the fletching of the fish bones into the darts. People then said- what is that? I asked the SK if he would try them, for they were throwing things, good for pulling and my class could not use the finished product (I could summon throwing daggers if I wanted, anyways). He used them and chuckled, really liked them and I asked if he wanted some lunch! The monk wanted to try them, too. They really liked them- I suppose they had fairly decent range *shrug* and the cool thing was, the making of the fish bone darts skilled up fletching to a nice mid-to upper-mid level and I didn't have to be a ranger to justify the ability to fletch. So when I was later thrusting arrows on newbie rangers who would always ask "Mage, why are you making arrows?" and then - "can you make a bow?" (which I couldn't because it was class specific if I recall) it was not so odd when I explained it helped me get skill-ups in fletching, and for which I would always implore them to please, please not hunt the pegasus, but possibly to help a mage because mages couldn't track and had to hope to see it in observed areas. (as I helped you and will continue to do so!- seriously! if I am on,  chat me!) for at the level you can hunt the pegasus, ANY mage will gladly summon you lifetime supplies of flight rings- ANY TIME. The rangers would say, but now I have permanent Lev and would consider it a retirement vehicle for in 15 levels they would have eagle spell and NOT NEED the cloak and sell it for a whopping 60k. waugh!.

     

     


    This post was edited by Manouk at April 11, 2015 9:38 AM PDT
    • 158 posts
    April 13, 2015 9:29 AM PDT

     

    Since my link has gone away into the ether, I will chime in.

     

    I love all the forms you have provided in your OP.  My thoughts on it below:

     

    Node Harvesting

    Not sure how this is unimersive, what more natural way to get metal then to mine it?  What more natural way to get stone then to quarry it?  Or pick a plant?

    Is there a reality I am unware of? 

    Anyway I believe this be the most productive way all the "base materials" or "common" elements should be gathered.  Depending on the far reaches of your crafing system within the game, you cannot have it any other way.  the reality of needing so much of the base materials and with it you can only make mundane items, is it really a game breaker?  OH look I just made a new copper sword......  Oh OH I just broke the game.

    Above and and beyond this brings group harvesting one of my favortie things in VG, and with out it?  Kiss good by crafted boats, housing and guild halls, due to sheer volume of base materials required.

    I also think small chances of "enhanced" crafting drops should be here as well. Rares, Ultra Rares, and what ever the game mechanics uses for adding magic effects.  The chance would go up with every extra person to max out with 6 harvesters.

     

    Deconstruction

    I put the need for deconstruction in a game on par with node harvesting.  This should be the second most productive route for base material harvesting and in my opinion the best route for the "enhancing" mechanics for adding magic effects. 

    I also believe is should be a skill, by specilization as well.  So a Weaponsmith is the only one who can deconstruct a sword at the smelter, also its be random chance based on skill etc for returns, from absolute failure to critical sucess.

    This also helps support the "player" economy, adventurers sell to crafters,who then craft and sell to adventurers.

     

    Loot drops

    Loot should be reserved for the "enhancing" mechanics, and only off named and raid mobs and such.  Since they already supply the "Deconsctruction items" there is no need to add a ton more. 

    If we have a decon system, we already have a sustaining loot for crafting mechanic.  Thus expanding beyond this should be specific and well planned.

     

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Exmortis at December 22, 2015 11:04 AM PST
    • 1889 posts
    November 29, 2015 5:44 PM PST

    Baulkin said:

    The source of our crafting materials is perhaps the most relevant indicator on how valuable crafting items will be.  Below are some pros and cons of each systems.  Below that I will write my opinion.  Please discuss.  

    ******

    Harvesting Nodes:

    Dropped Crafting Materials:

    Deconstruction

     

    My Opinion: 

    Personally I feel crafting nodes break immersion.  While I can understand skinning an animal to obtain leather I cannot abide nodes spawning in areas that make no logical sense.  The same skin could just as easily be dropped by the animal to accomplish the same thing.  I would much prefer a system that is a combination of Drops and Deconstruction.  In this way many of my crafting components can be collected while I am socially grouping.  I don't like the feeling of logging in for the day just to run a circuit between nodes while I read guild chat and try not to fall asleep.

     

    Please reply with your Thoughts & Opinions. 

    The best way to get the crafting system you want is to discuss it before it's made.  Not fix it after the fact.

    -Baulkin

    Personally a blend of of the dropped and deconstruction would be best.  I too am not a fan of a gathering node unless it actually made sense but should never be over-used.

    I really like deconstruction because it means that old useless weapons and items can be re-purposed.  What is wrong with melting down that old rusty sword to get some bits of iron that can, with other materials, create a fine steel sword?  I'd say that the better quality item have a greater return on the materials returned so that rusty sword might yield a few bits of iron but that FS sword could yield a full ingot.

    Where I have problems though with crafted items is how they compare to items which require a group or a raid to acquire.  In order of quality I'd say Crafted/Dropped > Quested > Raid.  Crafted/Dropped can switch positions throughout levels so at some points Dropped items are better but then at some points Crafted is better.

    Honestly if Pantheon could implement quests along the lines of the Coldain Prayer Shawl quest throughout the levels you can then easily incorporate all 3 aspects.

    • 182 posts
    February 2, 2016 5:45 PM PST

    I'm a fan of the dropped / deconstruction method.  

    • 466 posts
    February 8, 2016 12:10 PM PST

    I like all three

     

    Node drops .  I remember Harvesting Nodes in EQ2 if i needed stone or metal I had to hunt for nodes that spawned near mountains and suchLumber spawned near trees and forests.  You also had chance to harvest/mine a rare item used in crafting slighty better items or potions or creating a third teir of spells and was worth more then the common trash you got from the node..  You got the basics doing this and could make common items not worth much more then Vendor trash.  It is time consuming but thats life sometimes.

    In one of the expension packls they added Transmuting and tinkering.  Pretty much you could take an item and break it for base materials the rarer the item the rarer the results.  These were used in advanced items as well as adornments for weapons.

     

    You could also get things to craft via drop from mobs.

    • 666 posts
    February 16, 2016 9:32 AM PST

    The best items in game at any level should be the result of crafting from rare/boss drops.   If you want the uber chestplate, you need the uber dragon scale to have the chestplate crafted for you.   Perhaps the dragon drops a lesser chestplate that you could just wear, but it should be imbued, altered, crafted or improved in some way by appropriate level crafts people if you want the best available item for your level.

     

    I like harvesting nodes for resources where that makes sense for the item.   A resource node that dropped skin/fur is just silly, but ground spawn ore that I need mining skill to harvest, that seems immersive to me and provides an area of expertise (as an advanced miner) that I can specialize in.  Crops can be farmed, herbs can be foraged or gathered from ground spawns, lumber should be harvested from trees.

     

    Decomposing dropped items makes sense also, but the decomposition should have a moderate chance of simply destroying the item or yielding very meagre components.   Decomposition should be a skill which impacts my success rate and likelihood of getting better/rare items from the process.   It goes without saying that the result of a decomposition should be capped by the level/quality of the item, combined with the skill of the craftsman doing the decomposition.

     

    Mobs may drop crafting elements (other than rares), but this needs to be balanced so you can't just kill goblins to get your ore.  We don't want to create an easy workaround or bypass for the community of hard working miners who are out there plying their trade.

     

     

    • 182 posts
    February 16, 2016 9:46 AM PST

    Decomposing dropped items makes sense also, but the decomposition should have a moderate chance of simply destroying the item or yielding very meagre components.   Decomposition should be a skill which impacts my success rate and likelihood of getting better/rare items from the process.   It goes without saying that the result of a decomposition should be capped by the level/quality of the item, combined with the skill of the craftsman doing the decomposition.

     

    Mobs may drop crafting elements (other than rares), but this needs to be balanced so you can't just kill goblins to get your ore.  We don't want to create an easy workaround or bypass for the community of hard working miners who are out there plying their trade.

    I love these two ideas. Deconstruction of mob-dropped vendor trash should yield some materials.  That's like scavanging the dead body, and I love the idea, and I think it should be something you can do "in the field".  Also, at least some of the mobs we're going to face are supposed to be sentient, right?  Why shouldn't they be carrying some crafting resources?  They've got to get their weapons/armor/food items from somewhere.  I suppose they need the same crafting materials that wee would. 

    I don't know if that's where you were headed, Celandor, but that's what popped into my head.

    • 464 posts
    February 18, 2016 4:14 AM PST

    I suppose I don't mind a combination of all three methods but there should be limits and restrictions.

    Nodes should be base material primarily with only rare component drops to prevent farming. Over-farming should have penalties applied (encumberance). I like Baulkin's idea on high-level character farming in lowbie areas; should produce significantly less material. This would allow the lowbies to have more influence in the crafting market for material that is accrued from areas they should be in by default anyway.

    Dropped items should have a greater chance of producing rarer components. The rarest components should only come from the most difficult of mobs.

    Deconstruction would be your mid-range component collection method. I think it would be interesting to make it profession specific and leveled too as Exmortis suggested. Base materials are readily obtained but not in the degree as node gathering. But other component material would come from deconstruction much more frequently than node gathering.

    • 357 posts
    March 5, 2016 8:36 PM PST

    I like the idea of decompisition being a skill that effects success, however i would rather see it as a subskill of the specific craft. say i find a Ringmail i would need to be a Smith in order to decompose the ringmail, however if my skill is high enough i could get nearly everything used to make the item, but lets say my skill is still insufficient. then i could put priority on either the rings or the padding wich would allow me to get more of the one i wanted while the offset is that the majority of the item i didnt make priority is destroyed in the process.

    • 44 posts
    March 29, 2016 8:29 PM PDT

    I like all 3 and like it was mentioned nodes were made popular by WoW and through many years I have rarely had issues with high levels farming them on me usually I was up against mostly my level because face it a lvl 60 on his epic mount would be there theN gone the node would repawn and I'd harvest it. Besides last I checked back before modern mining machines I swear I saw a lot of photos of miners using pick axes to mone with and guess what most games I've played place the. Nodes in the mountain and rocky areas where you might actually expect them. So no harvest nodes are not taking away from the emerssion of the game and I pray hat they are not shining or blinking to alert you to where they are. So I am a fan of all 3 being in game 

    • 254 posts
    March 29, 2016 10:11 PM PDT

    I'm a fan of a mixture of all three as well, good info here!

    The blinking node part is also an immersion breaker for me and I believe I remember something about mining in UO, as in here was no node, you had to pick a spot and just start mining where it made the most sense and your skill ability allowed you to mine ore. Then once it was depleted you could move over a bit and try some more.

    This could go a long way in the 'sense' mechanic they've mentioned some form or another and the flavored text telling you about the area you are in. Not sure how this could be switched on to tell you that it's a good spot to try to labor for whatever resource that might be in the area. Either by equipping a harvesting object or something, else it's just a chat text channel you turn on or what not.

    Don't want to see the blinky node items either and instead figure out where it might be best to harvest a particular substance, albeit farming, mining, harvesting, etc

    Make it make sense, as in, you see a stalagmite structure of crystal if you equipped the correct harvesting tool for that resource you could extract it


    This post was edited by Nuemcy at March 29, 2016 10:13 PM PDT
    • 28 posts
    March 29, 2016 10:30 PM PDT

    Nuemcy said:

    I'm a fan of a mixture of all three as well, good info here!

    The blinking node part is also an immersion breaker for me and I believe I remember something about mining in UO, as in here was no node, you had to pick a spot and just start mining where it made the most sense and your skill ability allowed you to mine ore. Then once it was depleted you could move over a bit and try some more.

    This could go a long way in the 'sense' mechanic they've mentioned some form or another and the flavored text telling you about the area you are in. Not sure how this could be switched on to tell you that it's a good spot to try to labor for whatever resource that might be in the area. Either by equipping a harvesting object or something, else it's just a chat text channel you turn on or what not.

    Don't want to see the blinky node items either and instead figure out where it might be best to harvest a particular substance, albeit farming, mining, harvesting, etc

    Make it make sense, as in, you see a stalagmite structure of crystal if you equipped the correct harvesting tool for that resource you could extract it

    I agree with this!

    • 239 posts
    March 31, 2016 10:04 PM PDT
    Deconstructing mob dropped stuff has always been my favorite because it fosters a relationship between the adventures and crafter in a two directions system. The adventurer kills mobs and collects nonplayer usable weapons and armor and sell them in town to crafters. The crafter melts them down to metal bars and make new armor and weapons. Those get sold back to the adventuer.
    Imagine if froglocks dropped armor and weapons with stats far bellow what a player would want. Those are what you would be converting into crafter gear. Not your named drop stuff with stats and such.
    • 45 posts
    April 1, 2016 1:58 AM PDT

    I like a system for crafting Gear with simultaneously chance for loot.

     

    Example: The hardest Boss ingame drops 1-5 Armor Shards for the Best Armor ingame - needing like idk 500 shards to craft the Armor ... There is a 0,01% chance that the armor itself drops and x% chance for 2/3/4/5 or even more shards. So there would be both the luck and happyness if you are one of thousands that receive the armor as actual drop ... but if you go on and on you will reach the armor even if you are unlucky. This way you have something to look forward in either way - 100% success after xxx tries or 0,01% success rate on each try - This makes Boss-Loots less frustrating than Random Chances for either craftmats or endgear.

     

    For the crafting part i love the idea Black Desert follows, that your character got an energy bar which prevents people from farming nodes / picking plants throughout the whole day (also minimizes bots if they cant go for the big money with afk gather bots)

    • 582 posts
    April 1, 2016 2:28 PM PDT

    Exmortis said:

     

    Since my link has gone away into the ether, I will chime in.

     

    I love all the forms you have provided in your OP.  My thoughts on it below:

     

    Node Harvesting

    Not sure how this is unimersive, what more natural way to get metal then to mine it?  What more natural way to get stone then to quarry it?  Or pick a plant?

    Is there a reality I am unware of? 

    Anyway I believe this be the most productive way all the "base materials" or "common" elements should be gathered.  Depending on the far reaches of your crafing system within the game, you cannot have it any other way.  the reality of needing so much of the base materials and with it you can only make mundane items, is it really a game breaker?  OH look I just made a new copper sword......  Oh OH I just broke the game.

    Above and and beyond this brings group harvesting one of my favortie things in VG, and with out it?  Kiss good by crafted boats, housing and guild halls, due to sheer volume of base materials required.

    I also think small chances of "enhanced" crafting drops should be here as well. Rares, Ultra Rares, and what ever the game mechanics uses for adding magic effects.  The chance would go up with every extra person to max out with 6 harvesters.

     

    Deconstruction

    I put the need for deconstruction in a game on par with node harvesting.  This should be the second most productive route for base material harvesting and in my opinion the best route for the "enhancing" mechanics for adding magic effects. 

    I also believe is should be a skill, by specilization as well.  So a Weaponsmith is the only one who can deconstruct a sword at the smelter, also its be random chance based on skill etc for returns, from absolute failure to critical sucess.

    This also helps support the "player" economy, adventurers sell to crafters,who then craft and sell to adventurers.

     

    Loot drops

    Loot should be reserved for the "enhancing" mechanics, and only off named and raid mobs and such.  Since they already supply the "Deconsctruction items" there is no need to add a ton more. 

    If we have a decon system, we already have a sustaining loot for crafting mechanic.  Thus expanding beyond this should be specific and well planned.

     

    I completely agree with this. 

    Nodes serve a purpose and while the OP felt they break immersion, they really don't have to. Op you spoke of the glowing rock in the farmers field which I can agree is dumb. But take Black Desert for instance. Mining there meant you find rocks, none of which glow in any way, by standing next to them or on them. Basically you inspect the rocks/nodes to see what it is and then mine it. That to me is part of the immersion. If I see rocks and mountains why wouldn't I be able to mine for ore? 

    Deconstruction I feel should be in game but maybe not in the same sense as the OP. Have it in and have it give base materials for normal things like a fine steel sword. For magic items, maybe have them break down to give normal items with a chance for rare crafting materials. This method imo should not be the default method of getting mats in any way. It would be far too expensive and have an incredible amount of draw backs. While I get Exmortis' point on the circle of life for items this would cause bad blood and get many people labeled as ninjas due to them taking things for crafting mats. There simple aren't enough magic items that drop in game on a consistant enough basis to warrant this as being a viable method. In addition to node harvesting sure, but not by itself. 

    Drops ... I never really understood some of it. Acrylia caverns, like every mob dropped acrylia ore. Why? Why did those guys constantly farm ore? Why should we be forced to go farm said ore and make many many trips back and forth to a bank due to the weight limits in game? Drops can be a supliment sure, but again if drops are the only way to do crafting in game then I would be out of crafting. Having certain things being only drops I think would be fine but not everything. Again this would be a suppliment to the node harvesting. 

    Node harvesting is in itself a time sink. While some can find ways to get around it and gather higher level things, it's not a very common occurance. Especially not in a game where leashing mobs won't really exist. If it is possible to do it then the dev's have failed. It's up to them to control it. Add mobs closer to nodes or even have nodes spawn mobs ala Wildstar. There's so many ways to combat the low lvls farming high lvl stuff.