Hieromonk said:
Yokoshima said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
...
I don't think anyone wants separate areas/zones for two styles of play.
I agree with this. I would rather it be each zone has MoBs and dungeons that increase in difficulty (as in solo MoBs, then duo, etc.) from some sort of centralized point. That way if you were /lfg you would not have to travel to whole new zones, exploring areas of the zones would at times require a group so nowhere is totally "safe", and you could progressively challenge yourself by simply moving deeper into the zone with an exponential increase in the risks and rewards.
Brad typically design his games like that. He has a vision & if you look at EQ & VG, you will see that mobs where actually part of the world, & had meaning and purpose. It was YOU, that interacted with them. Without you there, this all would still be going on without you. Living and breathing.
An Orc camp wasn't just a prop... to lure in haptards, but an actual Orc camp... with a possible outpost nearby and most definitely a roaming guard who will call on support if you in area too long, alerting others. But, if you are good enough and aware enough (cognoscente), you can figure all these things out & even use them to your advantage, etc.
Additionally, in Role-Playing 101 rule book, it states: As One moves closer to a throne, tribal king, artifact, chieftain, demon, etc.. mobs get tougher.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.
Visionary Realm is using lore to make the world. They will not use the "solo", "duo" mentality when placing their encampments, etc.
That implies that lore and game mechanics are mutually exclusive. According to that mentality when determining MoB strength (as in difficulty) you would not factor in PC classes, numbers of players, gear, skills, or levels. The only way that would even kind of work is with a pure action game/interactive story games (such as "The Wolf Among us"). And even then it's pretty improbable. The only way lore exclusive MoBs can really work is in a book or movie.
Or the guard patrols near. Solo will come from understanding the game and knowing your opportunity(s). Not with mobs standing alone with a abandoned look on their face, with 20 other friends standing by unwilling to help as you kill them... <-- because "solo game play" somehow has importance to that mob?
I agree, that should not happen. I mean if the patrol is out of earshot/eyesight then yeah no help for him. But that doesn't mean solo players can't/shouldn't be able to kill anything. There is a middle ground between a hack n' slash and a group only MMO.
Most "mobs" have a story and watching them tells alot. Even grazing animals. Most humanoids are not "mobs", but parts of mini-kingdoms and their society & hierarchy are all taken into consideration. These are the things that make roleplaying games. Even snakes in a pit, had dominance over one another.. there was always a named that would come along and claimed ownership of the pit. A snake..
...I have no idea what that has to do with being able to kill by yourself. You can have lore driven "solo" areas. Also the word "MoBs", for simplicities sake refers to all "living" things. Usually hostile targets.
Lastly, Each zone..? Isn't this an Open World ..? You mean region?
Take your pick, they all mean pretty much the same thing in this context. This is just semantics at this point.
Hieromonk said:
There is no such thing as group quest, or solo quests...
Just difficult quests & easy... compared to how YOU yourself perceive them. Or whether or not you will bring a single friend, or 3~4 others to complete. If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. If not, then group. Determined by you... not Brad, or Visionary Realms.
Pretty sure they get to decide MoB and player stats and skills, level system, gear, etc. It would be kinda neat if you were right though.
Point being YOU... the player always determine the outcome.
Again, that would be pretty neat. Or not neat because I am tired of action RPGs (where skill only deter mains how well you do). Depends on how they would give the player ultimate control over the game difficulty.
Understand, sometimes a Warrior can solo a mob, he just has no way to peal it away from the other mobs standing around... The way another class with root could... leaving the second mob for the Solo Warrior = emergent solo gameplay... ! And quest stage complete for 2 different people, that didn't even know each other, or even knew one was on a quest.
Again, I don't think you'll have any problems solo'ing or finding your way in Pantheon.
I do hope that is true.
Hieromonk said:
...
and if you reread my post you will see i am on the other side of the fence, i feel that having solo play designed into the game is beneficial. i just dont think that it should be installed in such a way as to replace grouping. that is designed solo play. emergent is where the community figures out a way to do something that was never designed. such as Kiting mobs in eq1. the problem with emergent solo play is that it limits soloing to the one or 2 classes that have the required skill or skill combination to solo.
Also to the people who keep bringing up VG in this forum as a bastion of group play, you need to remember what VG was like, TONS of soloable mobs they were at the entrance to every region starting with the 2 dot mobs and getting more difficult as you progress twards the queen or king of the area. but you couldnt get anything from these mobs besides crafting mats, or a few parts to your armor quests which you still needed to group to finish. this is what most of us who want solo play in the game are asking for. not a stand alone solo game that leaves no reason to group.
I don't see a problem with emergent gameplay.
Any class in EQ could solo. They just had to be on the right mob, or have the right supplies, etc. The outright opinion that solo'ing only means one or two classes, is a misnomer. Any and all classes in Everquest solo'ed. Nuff said.
Yes but this is a discussion of whether or not meaningful (meaningful defined as: vs at level MoB, enough areas to do so when needed, rewards though not nearly as good as group ones etc.)solo play should be included. In EQ very few classes could consistently do that (as in past lv 30)
Not all quest that you stumble upon, will require only you.
It is improper to think of yourself as a God, and able to conquer any & all quests alone. (Brad's games do give you many years of trying though.)
Agreed, though I don't think anyone here ever said they wanted that in any capacity.
Hieromonk said:
There is no such thing as group quest, or solo quests...
Just difficult quests & easy... compared to how YOU yourself perceive them. Or whether or not you will bring a single friend, or 3~4 others to complete. If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. If not, then group. Determined by you... not Brad, or Visionary Realms.
Point being YOU... the player always determine the outcome.
Understand, sometimes a Warrior can solo a mob, he just has no way to peal it away from the other mobs standing around... The way another class with root could... leaving the second mob for the Solo Warrior = emergent solo gameplay... ! And quest stage complete for 2 different people, that didn't even know each other, or even knew one was on a quest.
Again, I don't think you'll have any problems solo'ing or finding your way in Pantheon.
Just difficult quests & easy... compared to how YOU yourself perceive them. Or whether or not you will bring a single friend, or 3~4 others to complete. If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. If not, then group. Determined by you... not Brad, or Visionary Realms.
Well, if you are right that the only thing that affects your ability to kill your enemies is the attitude that you can take take them on, you go charge the end level content from the very beginning. Then keep trying time and again. Eventually, you will have played for months and not even reached level two. Now that is what I call a slow progressing game.
Understand, sometimes a Warrior can solo a mob, he just has no way to peal it away from the other mobs standing around... The way another class with root could... leaving the second mob for the Solo Warrior = emergent solo gameplay... ! And quest stage complete for 2 different people, that didn't even know each other, or even knew one was on a quest.
Yeah, I'd call this ks'ing. Plus, if there is another player doing the same quests that I am doing, I'd probably group up with that person. Then, they would want to continue on with quests and I'd want to gawk at the world around me. Then they would leave and I'd be back trying to peel and kill all by my lonesome. And of course, since you don't want all classes to solo with the same efficiency, one of the classes being played would have to do worse than the other (b/c for one to be better, someone has to be worse) and if I'm playing that class, I get screwed. And now I'm stuck sitting around waiting for a group (which is fine some of the time, but other times, I want to explore. That is why I play the game.), which may not become available when I'm playing.
So, yay(!) emergent gameplay. It limits how much I can do with that single character. B/c no matter how hard I may WANT to be able to kill that enemy, it sometimes won't be possible. For instance, say you have a class that is given mostly root skills with one damaging attack, which you have to be standing still to cast, and there is an enemy that does all my health in one hit and can't be rooted. Sure, I may WANT to kill this enemy, but I can't. Though, according to you...
"If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage."
Now, an answer in the past is "play as a different class to kill that enemy.". Well, what if I don't like the style of play of other classes? Are you going to turn me away simply b/c I want to play the class that I want to play?
I don't care for emergent gameplay for a couple of reasons. I'll use the internet as an example. Lots of people use the internet. All in their own different ways. Some go to Facebook, some to Reddit and, yes, some even play WoW. But I'll stick with getting games off the internet. There are different ways to get the games. You can go to Amazon, Gamefly, Steam, the list goes on. But, there are those that have found ways to get games for free, downloading them illegally. Now, no matter how hard they try to remove the ways to illegally download games, people keep figuring out ways to do it. This isn't fair. People shouldn't be able to get away with things that were not intended. So lets say that I can't afford the game I want. It is impossible for me to get the game from the method that I'm using. Would you say that to get the game, I should switch to the available method of stealing it? That is essentially what emergent gameplay is kind of like. You can't do something specific with one way, switch to another way and do something that the creators did not intend for you to do.
EDITED: Hiero pointed out a mistake. Sorry Hiero, I thought you said something when it was someone else. Human memory isn't the most reliable thing. Also, if you hadn't noticed Hiero, I tend to italicize when it is something pulled from the post I'm responding to (unless it is one or two words and I'm using it for emphasis), but I threw on the quotes anyway.
Yokoshima said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
...
I don't think anyone wants separate areas/zones for two styles of play.
I agree with this. I would rather it be each zone has MoBs and dungeons that increase in difficulty (as in solo MoBs, then duo, etc.) from some sort of centralized point. That way if you were /lfg you would not have to travel to whole new zones, exploring areas of the zones would at times require a group so nowhere is totally "safe", and you could progressively challenge yourself by simply moving deeper into the zone with an exponential increase in the risks and rewards.
Yeah, separating the group and solo content would be a pain for when you finally find a group. I would mainly use the solo play as a means for when I'm waiting for a group and if you put the parts far from each other, then the would be group would just find someone else while waiting for you/me/whoever. I do like the idea of "radiating difficulty". You would have those nice boundaries that taunt you to test your skill as you progress further out from the central point. Party play would have a use (safety in numbers and all that) and exploration would be encouraged by the group (one of the drawbacks to grouping normally being that exploration is frowned upon b/c people want to get as much done as possible b/c they have a time frame to keep). Overall, a good idea on how to merge the two different types of play to get something that stays exciting, challenging, and fresh. All the things a good game should have.
Take that dungeon you spoke of. You could spend days lost in a hole, pushing your limits, driving ever deeper for that chest out of reach to all but the most thickened players (and I don't mean just in physical fortitude). Now, there may be those enemies further in that you may not be able to kill. Then as you chop and fire and blast your way through, you see another player willing to stake a claim on the fortunes within. Of course, by now, you are far past those ne'er-do-well enemies that you fought in the "solo" opening of this hole in the ground (and maybe even the 2 player targets) and he is taken down by the brutes ahead of you. You catch his name right before he rez'es and you message him "I like your skill to have gotten that far alone. I've struggled for the past three days and I've only been able to take one of those walls of health. When you get back, you want to team up?" You wait anxiously as the goal of winning has never felt so close. A chime. "Sure, I'll be in shortly." followed be a request. You start chatting while you wait for your comrade and even blast some of those 2-3 man targets as you wait for your ally. He shows up and you say to yourself "Yeah! Let's take on these 4 man targets." You break through the enemies that stand between you, but 30-45 min. in, as you round the corner a trap is sprung and you are pinned. Your fellow tries to hold off the foes as you wait for the trap to release. But, of course problems were had and you both go down. So you march back to drive through once again, the first tiers going by quicker b/c there are two players that were capable of killing the 2-man groups. You reach where you were, now aware of the dangers and with the knowledge to be cautious on your side. You fight through and lose the time until you run into "The Big One". You and he stare up at this gruesome looking... thing... and you ask "Well, we've avoided the perils of this cave so far. Onward?" He stares at you and you can tell that the player is thinking that you lost your sanity back when you were soloing. Luckily for you, so did he. "Yes, onward." is his response. You both take a moment to say your prayers to which ever deity you each have. You start your pre-battle rituals and head in. Well, the boss was far and above what you expected, but you dwindle his health. 50%. 40%. 30%. 20...10...5. Then he regains to 20% and enrages. Despite all your effort, you and he lay there as his laughs bellow while your respawn timer counts down (a timer that was added just for that area, all so you would be taunted). "Well," you say "THAT was an experience.". To which he responds "Yeah, did not see that coming. I've got to go though." You look up to your clock to see that you have spent the day getting here alone and a chunk of the night delving deeper. You say "Yeah... Well tomorrow, then. My buddy will be on and then, that fat **** is going down." "Kay. See you then."
You lie awake thinking on how to best The Big One. You tell yourself "No, I need to be sharp for tomorrow." right before you drift off.
You log on and introductions are had between your friend and your player pal. You explain the upcoming trials to your friend as you march through the solo enemies at the front of the cave. You round the corner that held you up yesterday, but your friend gets caught in the trap. You and your new pal defend him as he struggles (You know, that would be cool if there were some traps that generated aggro when you got stuck in them. Say a ranger doesn't see it. Now the tank has to do all he can to keep the enemies at bay.) to stay alive. You make quick(er) work of them and head on, the foes falling faster than the previous day's excursion. You get to The Big One and you all play your rolls. 50%. 35%. 20...5... He bumps back up and does his taunting laugh as he glows and grows. But you keep your cool and bring him back down to size. (Again an interesting idea. An enemy that changes size as you kill him. Going from big, bulky and slow to small, nimble and quick.) You defeat the monstrosity in front of you and he explodes , covering your party in the goop that was his insides. "Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.". You try your hand at his bellowing laugh and your pal says "Yeah. Give him a taste of his own postmortem medicine." as your friend stands there confused, having not seen the events of the previous night. "Well, treasure time." he says and heads for the chest. IT'S A TRAP! a mimic spawns and bites your friend debuffing him with fear and leaving his accuracy something to be joked about. You and your pal crush the mimic down to splinters and mimic pulp. Your new pal says "Mimic Maid(TradeMark) orange juice anyone? I hope you like it with pulp." You crack a smile and say in synch with your friend "Carlos!" as you grab your treasure. You three head out of the boss room, hop over that tricky trap, round the corner and make your way to the surface. You all split off to go your separate ways, proud that the three of you took on a 5+ mark and won your treasure fair. It dawns on you that this was just one of many challenging parts of this expansive world to come...
A seamless blend of solo and group play. Sure, you could march your way to the end with a group, and that would be a viable option, but the progressive challenge layout aspect of it gives you a way to test your character, your build, yourself. And no, this is NOT emergent gameplay b/c the whole thing was setup to follow this pattern.
Arthilios said:
Hieromonk said:
There is no such thing as group quest, or solo quests...
Just difficult quests & easy... compared to how YOU yourself perceive them. Or whether or not you will bring a single friend, or 3~4 others to complete. If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. If not, then group. Determined by you... not Brad, or Visionary Realms.
Point being YOU... the player always determine the outcome.
Understand, sometimes a Warrior can solo a mob, he just has no way to peal it away from the other mobs standing around... The way another class with root could... leaving the second mob for the Solo Warrior = emergent solo gameplay... ! And quest stage complete for 2 different people, that didn't even know each other, or even knew one was on a quest.
Again, I don't think you'll have any problems solo'ing or finding your way in Pantheon.
Just difficult quests & easy... compared to how YOU yourself perceive them. Or whether or not you will bring a single friend, or 3~4 others to complete. If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. If not, then group. Determined by you... not Brad, or Visionary Realms.
Well, if you are right that the only thing that affects your ability to kill your enemies is the attitude that you can take take them on, you go charge the end level content from the very beginning. Then keep trying time and again. Eventually, you will have played for months and not even reached level two. Now that is what I call a slow progressing game.
Understand, sometimes a Warrior can solo a mob, he just has no way to peal it away from the other mobs standing around... The way another class with root could... leaving the second mob for the Solo Warrior = emergent solo gameplay... ! And quest stage complete for 2 different people, that didn't even know each other, or even knew one was on a quest.
Yeah, I'd call this ks'ing. Plus, if there is another player doing the same quests that I am doing, I'd probably group up with that person. Then, they would want to continue on with quests and I'd want to gawk at the world around me. Then they would leave and I'd be back trying to peel and kill all by my lonesome. And of course, since you don't want all classes to solo with the same efficiency, one of the classes being played would have to do worse than the other (b/c for one to be better, someone has to be worse) and if I'm playing that class, I get screwed. And now I'm stuck sitting around waiting for a group (which is fine some of the time, but other times, I want to explore. That is why I play the game.), which may not become available when I'm playing.
It is not KS, such a scenario is TWO people mutually working together, to solve a problem; 2 people... 3 mobs.
Many people who solo'ed in Everquest ran a mob by a party or another, asking for a root, or help..! , etc. Mobs didn't drop in 30 seconds. You didn't always succeed. That is life.
So, yay(!) emergent gameplay. It limits how much I can do with that single character. B/c no matter how hard I may WANT to be able to kill that enemy, it sometimes won't be possible. For instance, say you have a class that is given mostly root skills with one damaging attack, which you have to be standing still to cast, and there is an enemy that does all my health in one hit and can't be rooted. Sure, I may WANT to kill this enemy, but I can't. Though, according to you...
" If you think you can solo a quest mob, then it is a solo quest stage. " <--- Please put those in quotes, as I said that
Now, your answer in the past is "play as a different class to kill that enemy." <--- Please remove those quotes, I have never said that. Have never said that. Only that perhaps certain classes do not suite particular mobs well, for one on one.
Well, what if I don't like the style of play of other classes? Are you going to turn me away simply b/c I want to play the class that I want to play?
I don't care for emergent gameplay for a couple of reasons. I'll use the internet as an example. Lots of people use the internet. All in their own different ways. Some go to Facebook, some to Reddit and, yes, some even play WoW. But I'll stick with getting games off the internet. There are different ways to get the games. You can go to Amazon, Gamefly, Steam, the list goes on. But, there are those that have found ways to get games for free, downloading them illegally. Now, no matter how hard they try to remove the ways to illegally download games, people keep figuring out ways to do it. This isn't fair. People shouldn't be able to get away with things that were not intended. So lets say that I can't afford the game I want. It is impossible for me to get the game from the method that I'm using. Would you say that to get the game, I should switch to the available method of stealing it? That is essentially what emergent gameplay is kind of like. You can't do something specific with one way, switch to another way and do something that the creators did not intend for you to do.
Look, let me be blunt Arthilios: When you happen so see someone solo'ing a mob in front of you, YOU arbitrary assume YOU, should also be able to solo that mob..? Without knowing anything about it..? , or preparing..?, etc. Honestly, that is just entitlement thinking, & utterly wrong, if so. That is Not the style of free thinking needed in a sandbox gameplay.
You may not understand, that the person doing that soling, didn't just happen upon this area. They have taken several hundred runs to the zone because they failed, until they found out these mobs are not resistant to poison, and very susceptible to blunt weapons, etc. SO after a week of questing for new blunt weapons, and getting 1-hand blunt skill up... plus, a few long-lasting barb potions, they have learned threw emergent gameplay, how to solo these mobs quite efficiently.
But you standing there... do not see any of that^, only the will & desire to SHOW OFF and try it yourself..? ..and fail/can't because you didn't kill that mob on the 1st try..? Or the 2nd or 3rd..? Or learned your own way of doing it..? Or finding out what YOUR character pros & cons are. Or bothering finding mobs that make for better odds (ie: easy kills) for your Character's build..? See..?
Pantheon will be a chess game. Any class in EverQuest could solo... those who could not where not good players. Vanguard had great combat, more geared toward the solo'er. Pantheon will have both styles of gameplay.
Again, nobody said there won't be mobs others can't solo... or that You won't find your own little haven in some corner and learn how to kill high exp mobs all by yourself... But, just that there will not be endless fields of single mobs DESIGNED INTO THE GAME, leaving swaths of dead mobs all over the place from solo players. That style of gameplay isn't what Visionary Realms is setting out to do. You can play ArcehAge for the next 5 months and get that out of your system. This game will having meaningful solo play, just not handed to you on a platter. P1999 <--- try it out for a crash course.
Arthilios, what type of class do you plan on playing..? What is the character you want to roleplay..?
Arthilios said:
Yokoshima said:
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:
...
I don't think anyone wants separate areas/zones for two styles of play.
I agree with this. I would rather it be each zone has MoBs and dungeons that increase in difficulty (as in solo MoBs, then duo, etc.) from some sort of centralized point. That way if you were /lfg you would not have to travel to whole new zones, exploring areas of the zones would at times require a group so nowhere is totally "safe", and you could progressively challenge yourself by simply moving deeper into the zone with an exponential increase in the risks and rewards.
Yeah, separating the group and solo content would be a pain for when you finally find a group. I would mainly use the solo play as a means for when I'm waiting for a group and if you put the parts far from each other, then the would be group would just find someone else while waiting for you/me/whoever. I do like the idea of "radiating difficulty". You would have those nice boundaries that taunt you to test your skill as you progress further out from the central point. Party play would have a use (safety in numbers and all that) and exploration would be encouraged by the group (one of the drawbacks to grouping normally being that exploration is frowned upon b/c people want to get as much done as possible b/c they have a time frame to keep). Overall, a good idea on how to merge the two different types of play to get something that stays exciting, challenging, and fresh. All the things a good game should have.
Take that dungeon you spoke of. You could spend days lost in a hole, pushing your limits, driving ever deeper for that chest out of reach to all but the most thickened players (and I don't mean just in physical fortitude). Now, there may be those enemies further in that you may not be able to kill. Then as you chop and fire and blast your way through, you see another player willing to stake a claim on the fortunes within. Of course, by now, you are far past those ne'er-do-well enemies that you fought in the "solo" opening of this hole in the ground (and maybe even the 2 player targets) and he is taken down by the brutes ahead of you. You catch his name right before he rez'es and you message him "I like your skill to have gotten that far alone. I've struggled for the past three days and I've only been able to take one of those walls of health. When you get back, you want to team up?" You wait anxiously as the goal of winning has never felt so close. A chime. "Sure, I'll be in shortly." followed be a request. You start chatting while you wait for your comrade and even blast some of those 2-3 man targets as you wait for your ally. He shows up and you say to yourself "Yeah! Let's take on these 4+ man targets." You break through the enemies that stand between you, but 30 min. in, as you round the corner a trap is sprung and you are pinned. Your fellow tries to hold off the foes as you wait for the trap to release. But, of course problems were had and you both go down. So you march back to drive through once again, the first tiers going by quicker b/c there are two players that were capable of killing the 2-man groups. You reach where you were, now aware of the dangers and with the knowledge to be cautious on your side. You fight through and lose the time until you run into "The Big One". You and he stare up at this gruesome looking... thing... and you ask "Well, we've avoided the perils of this cave so far. Onward?" He stares at you and you can tell that the player is thinking that you lost your sanity back when you were soloing. Luckily for you, so did he. "Yes, onward." is his response. You both take a moment to say your prayers to which ever deity you each have. You start your pre-battle rituals and head in. Well, the boss was far and above what you expected, but you dwindle his health. 50%. 40%. 30%. 20...10...5. Then he regains to 20% and enrages. Despite all your effort, you and he lay there as his laughs bellow while your respawn timer counts down (a timer that was added just for that area, all so you would be taunted). "Well," you say "THAT was an experience.". To which he responds "Yeah, did not see that coming. I've got to go though." You look up to your clock to see that you have spent the day getting here alone and a chunk of the night delving deeper. You say "Yeah... Well tomorrow, then. My buddy will be on and then, that fat **** is going down." "Kay. See you then."
You lie awake thinking on how to best The Big One. You tell yourself "No, I need to be sharp for tomorrow." right before you drift off.
You log on and introductions are had between your friend and your player pal. You explain the upcoming trials to your friend as you march through the solo enemies at the front of the cave. You round the corner that held you up yesterday, but your friend gets caught in the trap. You and your new pal defend him as he struggles (You know, that would be cool if there were some traps that generated aggro when you got stuck in them. Say a ranger doesn't see it. Now the tank has to do all he can to keep the enemies at bay.) to stay alive. You make quick(er) work of them and head on, the foes falling faster than the previous day's excursion. You get to The Big One and you all play your rolls. 50%. 35%. 20...5... He bumps back up and does his taunting laugh as he glows and grows. But you keep your cool and bring him back down to size. (Again an interesting idea. An enemy that changes size as you kill him. Going from big, bulky and slow to small, nimble and quick.) You defeat the monstrosity in front of you and he explodes , covering your party in the goop that was his insides. "Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.". You try your hand at his bellowing laugh and your pal says "Yeah. Give him a taste of his own postmortem medicine." as your friend stands there confused, having not seen the events of the previous night. "Well, treasure time." he says and heads for the chest. IT'S A TRAP! a mimic spawns and bites your friend debuffing him with fear and leaving his accuracy something to be joked about. You and your pal crush the mimic down to splinters and mimic pulp. Your new pal says "Mimic Maid(TradeMark) orange juice anyone? I hope you like it with pulp." You crack a smile and say in synch with your friend "Carlos!" as you grab your treasure. You three head out of the boss room, hop over that tricky trap, round the corner and make your way to the surface. You all split off to go your separate ways, proud that the three of you took on a 5+ mark and won your treasure fair. It dawns on you that this was just one of many challenging parts of this expansive world to come...
A seamless blend of solo and group play. Sure, you could march your way to the end with a group, and that would be a viable option, but the progressive challenge layout aspect of it gives you a way to test your character, your build, yourself. And no, this is NOT emergent gameplay b/c the whole thing was setup to follow this pattern.
Incredible^.... you have it 100%... then throw it away with the last sentence.
Yes, what you describe is 100% all emergent gameplay. You assume that every wizard is going to have the same spells memorized, or have the same abilities, or even situational awareness, etc. Each person you come across will have different spells loaded, or innate racial ability. Making for different experiences & gameplay.
Don't assume every Wizard, or Warrior are the same. That is pre-programed thinking since essentially WoW, in that Class types only differentiated/changed graphically, not in actuality. Pantheon will be a chess game, with daily moves.
I think you are going to love Pantheon Arthilios...!
Hieromonk said:
...
A seamless blend of solo and group play. Sure, you could march your way to the end with a group, and that would be a viable option, but the progressive challenge layout aspect of it gives you a way to test your character, your build, yourself. And no, this is NOT emergent gameplay b/c the whole thing was setup to follow this pattern.
Incredible^.... you have it 100%... then throw it away with the last sentence.
Yes, what you describe is 100% all emergent gameplay. You assume that every wizard is going to have the same spells memorized, or have the same abilities, or even situational awareness, etc. Each person you come across will have different spells loaded, or innate racial ability. Making for different experiences & gameplay.
That is not emergent gameplay, that (what Arthilios described) is designed gameplay. When you find a way to exploit your character/class to take on content that you were not meant to (say group [3+] MoBs solo) then that is emergent. Because the game was not DESIGNED for you to be able to do that. If the MoB is a group MoB (assuming you are at level etc.). In every game there is a variance to what each person can do based on skill (this game has a low ceiling because it is not an action RPG). To give it an arbitrary number system say with good gear you are a 100 base. With skill, you could become say 150 in a game like this and take on challenges that would also rank 150 or lower. That would be something that is designed. But when you start with what should be 100 and take on 500 content then that would be emergent gameplay because such play styles EMERGE due to people learning ways to exploit the system.
Don't assume every Wizard, or Warrior are the same. That is pre-programed thinking since essentially WoW, in that Class types only differentiated/changed graphically, not in actuality. Pantheon will be a chess game, with daily moves.
I could be wrong, but what you are saying by comparing this game to a chess game is that skill will have great effect on how every class is played. On this I would have to disagree. If the game was like darksouls or something where you could be immortal naked while someone else in the best gear can't kill some "weak" MoBs I would agree. But that is not the way this (nor almost any MMORPG) is made. You have set skills and gear to get. You remember your rotation on skills and watch for adds. That's it. Almost no skill involved.
Hieromonk said:
Arthilios said:
A seamless blend of solo and group play. Sure, you could march your way to the end with a group, and that would be a viable option, but the progressive challenge layout aspect of it gives you a way to test your character, your build, yourself. And no, this is NOT emergent gameplay b/c the whole thing was setup to follow this pattern.
Incredible^.... you have it 100%... then throw it away with the last sentence.
Yes, what you describe is 100% all emergent gameplay. You assume that every wizard is going to have the same spells memorized, or have the same abilities, or even situational awareness, etc. Each person you come across will have different spells loaded, or innate racial ability. Making for different experiences & gameplay.
Don't assume every Wizard, or Warrior are the same. That is pre-programed thinking since essentially WoW, in that Class types only differentiated/changed graphically, not in actuality. Pantheon will be a chess game, with daily moves.
I think you are going to love Pantheon Arthilios...!
Firstly, I'd like to know how you voted in the poll... https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/210/solo-vs-group-play-balance
Now, it seems that the only thing that we are arguing over is phrasing. I call this designed solo b/c through learning your class, you can solo enemies in ways the creators designed it to be. I call emergent gameplay you finding a specific setup that was not originally intended to work. Saying that learning how a class works counts as emergent gameplay simply b/c other players can't figure out the class is wrong.
So,I'd like to use these terms b/c they are self explanatory.
1.) Playing your class as it was designed to be played through learning what you are capable of is designed gameplay.
And
2.) Playing the class and emerging from the norm through the use of exploits that were not originally intended to be used is emergent gameplay.
Hieromonk said:
Arthilios said:
Hieromonk said:
...
Look, let me be blunt Arthilios: When you happen so see someone solo'ing a mob in front of you, YOU arbitrary assume YOU, should also be able to solo that mob..? Without knowing anything about it..? , or preparing..?, etc. Honestly, that is just entitlement thinking, & utterly wrong, if so. That is Not the style of free thinking needed in a sandbox gameplay.
Provided you are about the same level with about the same gear you should be able to, at least after a few tries. There's not much a MoB can teach you. They attack via ____ (ranged, melee and or a bit of both) have ____hp and, _______ friends in the area. They may also have ________ debuffs. Some games have resistances to factor in. Not that much to figure out.
You may not understand, that the person doing that soling, didn't just happen upon this area. They have taken several hundred runs to the zone because they failed, until they found out these mobs are not resistant to poison, and very susceptible to blunt weapons, etc. SO after a week of questing for new blunt weapons, and getting 1-hand blunt skill up... plus, a few long-lasting barb potions, they have learned threw emergent gameplay, how to solo these mobs quite efficiently.
Yes, and good on them too. But because you have to have everything just so, otherwise you would die by yourself means it is not a solo MoB. Just because you can kill it by yourself does not mean that is the way you are expected to. I hope that remains in this game because its fun and rewarding, but it is NOT solo gameplay. It is finding out how to kill MoBs designed for a small to large group by yourself. I suppose "solo content" is a bit of a misnomer, so I will explain the standard connotation. Solo content is content that is meant to be soloed. If done in a small to large group the rewards and content become trivialized. You are expected to be able to (with some variation) be able to take on most solo content provided you are at their level with at level gear. Solo play and solo content is not group content you painstakingly do by yourself.
Pantheon will be a chess game. Any class in EverQuest could solo... those who could not where not good players. Vanguard had great combat, more geared toward the solo'er. Pantheon will have both styles of gameplay.
Ok first of chess is nothing but glorified rock paper scissors. Same game, same pieces. Every single time. I hope that Pantheon is better, I don't want to have to fight the same 6 MoBs just re-skinned over and over again. In EQ (at least way back when, haven't played in years) most classes could not, in any practical sense of the word, solo. The best (skilled) warrior could do far less than a mediocre necro. Skill is not that important in a game like this (provided the player is not mentally challenged and can reach a certain baseline. For example healers should not reserve heals exclusively for party members at full health. Common sense stuff really).
Again, nobody said there won't be mobs others can't solo... or that You won't find your own little haven in some corner and learn how to kill high exp mobs all by yourself... But, just that there will not be endless fields of single mobs DESIGNED INTO THE GAME, leaving swaths of dead mobs all over the place from solo players. That style of gameplay isn't what Visionary Realms is setting out to do.
Solo content does not have to be fields of weak MoBs who are there just to be killed by solo players. Solo content can be implemented in the exact same way all other content is. The only difference is the strength of the MoBs. How that is implemented is up to Visionary Relms, but I can assure you that there are ways to do it that are not easy mode nor is it lore unfriendly and odd (again groups of MoBs standing there for no real reason other than to be farmed). Go play almost any western sp RPG for examples of challenging lore friendly content and gameplay.
EDIT: I would like to point out I would hate to see solo content in this game be implemented as it was in other games such as FF14:ARR.
We have now explained this in the Developer Round Table Podcast, and while we understand that everyone has a different view on solo gameplay, what this should be and how it should be implemented, we will be following a similar path to EQ and VG as I have already explained in a previous post.
Pantheon is being created with group gameplay in mind but solo gameplay will not be prohibited, players will be able to solo some content although it will be difficult and there will not be specific content created for solo grinding.
FF14: RR is not a game we are basing any of these mechanics on even though it may share some similarities. Pantheon is being created as a spiritual successor to EQ/VG but with some modern tweaks to be able to call itself a standalone game/IP.
I just want to remind everyone that these are developer forums, not fan forums and while discussion and feedback is very important to us, circular arguments over opinions - when the topic has already been addressed - are not helpful at all, I ask that you please stop and direct your attention to the Developer Round Table and other topics for now.
Thanks
Yokoshima said:
Hieromonk said:
...
A seamless blend of solo and group play. Sure, you could march your way to the end with a group, and that would be a viable option, but the progressive challenge layout aspect of it gives you a way to test your character, your build, yourself. And no, this is NOT emergent gameplay b/c the whole thing was setup to follow this pattern.
Incredible^.... you have it 100%... then throw it away with the last sentence.
Yes, what you describe is 100% all emergent gameplay. You assume that every wizard is going to have the same spells memorized, or have the same abilities, or even situational awareness, etc. Each person you come across will have different spells loaded, or innate racial ability. Making for different experiences & gameplay.
That is not emergent gameplay, that (what Arthilios described) is designed gameplay. When you find a way to exploit your character/class to take on content that you were not meant to (say group [3+] MoBs solo) then that is emergent. Because the game was not DESIGNED for you to be able to do that. If the MoB is a group MoB (assuming you are at level etc.). In every game there is a variance to what each person can do based on skill (this game has a low ceiling because it is not an action RPG). To give it an arbitrary number system say with good gear you are a 100 base. With skill, you could become say 150 in a game like this and take on challenges that would also rank 150 or lower. That would be something that is designed. But when you start with what should be 100 and take on 500 content then that would be emergent gameplay because such play styles EMERGE due to people learning ways to exploit the system.
Don't assume every Wizard, or Warrior are the same. That is pre-programed thinking since essentially WoW, in that Class types only differentiated/changed graphically, not in actuality. Pantheon will be a chess game, with daily moves.
I could be wrong, but what you are saying by comparing this game to a chess game is that skill will have great effect on how every class is played. On this I would have to disagree. If the game was like darksouls or something where you could be immortal naked while someone else in the best gear can't kill some "weak" MoBs I would agree. But that is not the way this (nor almost any MMORPG) is made. You have set skills and gear to get. You remember your rotation on skills and watch for adds. That's it. Almost no skill involved.
Yokoshima, I think you make some good points. (+1)
But I think your frame of reference is from today's games, not tradition Brad games. It seems you still think Warrior = Warrior.
For instance, two same level Warriors (lvl 27). One has spent considerable time on his character's abilities and spent hours maintaining a decent sub-set of his Class's core skill abilities. Specializing in 1-hand blunt & 1-hand sword & shield. While the other Warrior... has a big 2-hand axe and never used a shield, or ever touch 1-hand blunt, etc..
Contrast those two with a simple PUG, with same 4~5 people + either warrior^.
You are going to have different gameplay, based on what Warrior you swap in-&-out of that party. That chemistry is emergent. This particular group combination might be the first ever, on these mobs. So you tactics may vary based on what classes you have, or what spells the caster actually have. But after some failed attempts, people in that party start to swap out spells, or weapons trying to find the right combo to take these mobs down, to make it worth their while to set up camp.
Emergent gameplay was awesome in EverQuest, how a EQ party member goes link dead, & all of a sudden you don't have a Wizard anymore, but an Enchanter, & your party now has crowd control, etc. And instead of running or dieing on your first 5 pulls, over the last 45 minutes... you actually move into a room that you just cleared and set up camp. Hodge-podge group of people, with different propensities can do different things. Potential difference.
That is where the chess game comes into play.
Is when someone figures something out, that nobody has yet... and exploits that knowledge for their own benefit. They are not exploiting the game... only exploiting the knowledge they gained (something they learned from within the game). It might be the right combination of weird... that ends up unlocking their secret. Which can be filed away in the back of their mind and used levels later when they encounter the same thing, in another land, etc.
How many people running from a lowly ghoul... because they didn't know traditional weapons can't hurt it. Knowledge is power.
edit:
BTW, please listen to the whole 1.5 hours of the Round Table podcast. Almost everything we are discussing is headlined.
Just wanted to say that I will no longer be discussing this topic. I'd like to say it is because I realized that there is no hope for a proper resolution, but to my shame a forum mod had to convince me that this is truly going no where. I would also not like to discuss this privately through PMs so I will not respond to any if anyone should send them. Thank you all and have a nice day.
Just to lighten the mood a bit I wanted to share a joke with you all. Ok, here goes. What do you get when you play in an underwater zone? You get submergent gameplay. hehe ;) Sometimes if we are passionate about something we can take it a little bit too seriously. I hope this little bit of humor helped ease the tensions a little.
Yokoshima said:
Just wanted to say that I will no longer be discussing this topic. I'd like to say it is because I realized that there is no hope for a proper resolution, but to my shame a forum mod had to convince me that this is truly going no where. I would also not like to discuss this privately through PMs so I will not respond to any if anyone should send them. Thank you all and have a nice day.
No shame at all Yokoshima, sometimes it takes an outside voice to help you realise something or to help you look at something from a different perspective but it is not shameful, we can learn from things like this and grow stronger.
I enjoyed the conversation a lot but the last few pages were just repeats, so it's best to save your energy for a fresh discussion than to waste it on one that is going no where friend ;)
PS: Kyndreads joke was really bad! Hahaha :P
Yokoshima said:
Just wanted to say that I will no longer be discussing this topic. I'd like to say it is because I realized that there is no hope for a proper resolution, but to my shame a forum mod had to convince me that this is truly going no where. I would also not like to discuss this privately through PMs so I will not respond to any if anyone should send them. Thank you all and have a nice day.
A proper resolution to one may not be the same for another. We talk and discuss things to view out our points and if our idea's mix with others we have to respect them as well. At the end of the day if we get a couple of things we like and a couple we don't its still a win. No game in the world will please everyone. Its about compromise to please as many as possible.
Yokoshima said:
At some point this message seems to have been lost based on the last few posts. I put it in my original post but it seems to have gone unnoticed.
Solo play and solo content =/= easy mode.
I have not said ever, nor do I ever want, a game that is without challenges. There should always be areas, and many of them, that contain difficult MoBs for one reason or another. And in these areas people should be able to challenge themselves by fighting there and soloing where they should not be, just as was done in EQ1. The only difference is not every area would be like this, not that they would cease to exists. At least if done right. VG is a pretty good example of this.
I am not sure where this idea came from ...solo play = easy mode. I remember teaching myself to solo as a wizard, after 3 frustrating days of looking for a group, back when they made the nukers less effective, and pumped up rogue damage. BTW there were whole rants on SOE's forums from wizard groups about this change, just so you know I wasn't the only one.
So...what to do? I wasn't getting anywhere with my wizard, I loved my wizard, I loved the game, I wasn't about to quit ...not yet!
So I got myself out to the Kunark regions, and decided to learn how to kite (with snare) skellies in that area.
I died A LOT. Til I learned how they pathed ...and how to keep myself alive. IT WASN'T easy, I didn 't have anyone advising me. But I learned.
And eventually decided my hangout was in Skyfire, with all the agro mobs that could make a real nasty train in the matter of minutes if you didn't kill everything you agroed.
I spent time in Skyfire, because there were wizard spells that dropped there, that I could never get my hands on, due to exorbitant prices on the market. In retaliation and rebellion, I would collect all these spells for myself and my friends. Giving them away for free, to cut into the profits of the gougers (probably gold and plat farmers) I teamed with necromancers there too, sometimes, wizzies and necros made great duos.
It was all a learning curve, a challenge that I was up for...and I never had to wait for 3 days running again. That was spawned out of necessity and out of wanting to play the game. I had to deal with summoning mobs which were my bane as a wizzie, being a soft, squishy target ...dressed in toilet paper armor. :P
But I learned, and I think...became a much better player for it. :)
**edit this was emergent game play...not programmed into the game. Player versus environment. This is the type of game play I prefer if I can't find a group. And it seems it will be the type of gameplay allowed. Which means I can continue to challenge myself when and if I can't find a group or I am not crafting or exploring, or doing other interesting things. :)
Can't wait for Pantheon. :)
Kilsin said:
Yokoshima said:
Just wanted to say that I will no longer be discussing this topic. I'd like to say it is because I realized that there is no hope for a proper resolution, but to my shame a forum mod had to convince me that this is truly going no where. I would also not like to discuss this privately through PMs so I will not respond to any if anyone should send them. Thank you all and have a nice day.
No shame at all Yokoshima, sometimes it takes an outside voice to help you realise something or to help you look at something from a different perspective but it is not shameful, we can learn from things like this and grow stronger.
I enjoyed the conversation a lot but the last few pages were just repeats, so it's best to save your energy for a fresh discussion than to waste it on one that is going no where friend ;)
PS: Kyndreads joke was really bad! Hahaha :P
It was a bit shameful. I had hoped that a I would eventually be able to participate in a point-counter point style of debate and eventually come to a reasonable conclusion. I was foolish for holding out so long in hopes of it happening and I should have known better.
I think EQ did it about right. Every class could solo with varying degrees of difficulty, but you had to stick to areas where it worked and fight mobs below your level. Dungeons were generally not solo friendly and hands down had the best loot. So players who wanted good equipment had to group up to get the best rewards.
Solo content is needed for sure. I liked the Vanguard System very much with mobs having dots above their head. 1 dot = super easy and 6 dot is for strong groups.
I remember there was a Spider dungeon at around level 12 in the beginning the quests all been soloable by my warrior. There also was 1 way in the dungeon where mobs had 3 dots and it was pretty rough so grouping made sense.
Group only content would make people bored pretty fast if they cant get groups and there isnt any way to adventure. I also have in mind that nowadays most people arent in school/university anymore like earlier. That means playtime overall went down for most of us. After 10 hours of work I wouldnt mind just logging in for 45 minutes and just relax by doing a few solo quests / talk with friends.
That said , I want group / raid content to be the most rewarding and hard. I love grouping :-)
I'm not sure how to approach this seeing as how some design decisions have already been made in regard to soloing and many approaches have already been discussed, yet I'd still like to drop my opinion into the mix. I can already see that it will suffer some scrutiny from the more modernized players in the community, nevertheless...
For me, the thought of any class being able to solo all the way to cap leaves a bad taste in my mouth (tastes like vomit).
First, let me preface this by saying I don't mind, given the right mobs and the right equipment, that any class have the ability to solo to some degree. The problem I think a player should run into soloing is how to progress their equipment, in order to continue soloing for xp gains. At level 1 for instance, the mobs should be on somewhat of an even playing field. They aren't well equipped or overly dangerous, and neither is the player. However, without a way to improve your characters equipment by yourself, you should be running into trouble taking on those stronger, more equipped gnolls, orcs and bandits.
The more poignant question therefore is,
1) will solo item progression be available to enable players to continue gaining levels solo?
2) will a player wearing rags or even level ~10 dungeon armor at level 30 actually be capable of soloing a level 30 mob?
For me, I see no problem with a level 30 player who has grouped and acquired level 30 gear from harder content being able to solo in their downtime or while looking for a group. What I don't like is
1) the notion that a player should be able to solo indefinitely with lower level equipment that should be obsolete.
2) the notion that a player should be provided with solo content to gain equipment which will further enable them to solo.
Those two concepts stand out in my mind as being some of the most hazardous design decisions in the modern mmorpg where community and multiplayer aspects are concerned. They will single-handedly crush the desire for players to interact with other players, because people will not generally not look to group if they can progress (both items and exp) more effectively alone.
Now I have heard of the class trials or achievements system which will have you doing different things to unlock the ability to continue gaining experience, among other things. Permitted these trials actually require a group, that system comes as great news to me. That alone will mean grouping will be necessary at some point for everyone.
I submit however, that gear should be an important variable in the soloing equation. I don't just mean for tanks and melees (like EQ), I also think even a caster should struggle to efficiently kill mobs around their own level if they don't have equipment that is of a similar level. Whether its simply a lack of mana or a lack of focus stats, I don't think a level 30 caster should be able to reliably kill an even-con mob with level 10 gear.
I also find the concept of providing a method of solo gear progression equally abhorrent *cough - quest progression. Sorry, Vanguard had a lot to enjoy, but that aspect of it as well as the other themepark features that were added along the way basically turned me off from playing the game as a whole. Don't get me wrong, what Vanguard had going for it made it 100x the game that its contemporaries were (and even current games for that matter), yet I still could not bring myself to continue either way.
I know these opinions make for a pretty hardcore game, but I feel they are totally necessary if we ever want to see the sense of adventure and community return in Pantheon.
tl;dr
- I think players that group and have acquired the necessary gear, should be afforded the privilege of soloing.
- I like EQ group-based item progression system over the trivial solo (quest hub) progression
- I think solo content yielding item upgrades should not be provided to enable players to continue soloing.
- I think players wearing rags should struggle (or just die) trying to kill a mob until they get better gear.
Nolaen said:
Solo content is needed for sure. I liked the Vanguard System very much with mobs having dots above their head. 1 dot = super easy and 6 dot is for strong groups.
I remember there was a Spider dungeon at around level 12 in the beginning the quests all been soloable by my warrior. There also was 1 way in the dungeon where mobs had 3 dots and it was pretty rough so grouping made sense.
Group only content would make people bored pretty fast if they cant get groups and there isnt any way to adventure. I also have in mind that nowadays most people arent in school/university anymore like earlier. That means playtime overall went down for most of us. After 10 hours of work I wouldnt mind just logging in for 45 minutes and just relax by doing a few solo quests / talk with friends.
That said , I want group / raid content to be the most rewarding and hard. I love grouping :-)
Let me start off by saying I loved VG and played it from the first beta till it was sadly shut down. That being said, IF and thats a big IF, solo content makes it into the game then it has to be severely limited imho for most classes. A basic rule is people will follow the path of least resistance, if there is open solo play in the game then grouping will become the rarity and solo will be the common play style. I think the majority with it being a "social" game would like to see it more group centric.(or thats my hope at least lol)
A second thing I do hope they avoid is the easy "Con" systems put into games lately, Be it dots or colors around their portraits. I always loved the original from EQ, you could see its level form the color when you hit "c", beyond that though it was always a mystery until you attacked. I for one am looking forward and hope for that feeling of being tossed into a world, lost and going "hmm ooooookay guys, what do you think" and as a team and community figure it out. The further from a theme park roller coaster ride it is the better, it forces us to work together and minimizes the true trolls, because in a game where you need a group, if you are blacklisted by the community in groups then have fun ;) Let the Dev's make and design the world and then we figure it out, bring back the Alakhazams, EQAtlas's and class sites.
Lol of course if it does go the solo easier way, I will still play :p I am just hoping for that "lost" feeling when I log in for the first time and feeling of awe as you stumble on to some new discoveries. Sitting on the edge of my seat, heart pumping feeling when I venture of the beaten paths and such. If you played EQ near the begining you know what I am talking about, lol that first time at night when you heard that skeleton cackle, "what the hell was that??" oh crap and looked for a land mark so you could find your corpse. And ran as fast as you could lol. Ok Ok I am waxing too much nostalgia, here is to hoping Pantheon reclaims some of that lost magic though *cheers*
Sevens said:
I will not purchase Pantheon if I see the game design has shifted more towards the newer MMORPGs, rather than sticking with the older, 'you definitely need to group', MMORPGs. If Brad decides the 'vision' must change in order to make more money, I could not find fault except maybe in a bait-n-switch kind of way. It's his game and his salary. I just don't want to play that game with the altered 'vision'. I will just continue to play EQ and save my money.
I definitely don't want a shift towards newer MMORPG's either, but there has never been an MMO I've played (Including EQ) that you couldn't solo in. Some classes were incredible at solo and some just couldn't do it and I would say EQ was the hardest game to solo in. I have no problem if most classes cant solo or are very poor at it. In EQ and VG I had group alts and solo alts for when I was having problems finding a group or didn't have much time to play.
Don't get me wrong I much prefer grouping to solo and if there was no solo at all I would still happily play Pantheon.
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EMULATE EQ 1 CLASSIC AS YOUR BASE MODEL IN EVERY EXPANSION AND ADD FLAVOR !!!!!!
Mix in a little VG and Shazaam...Perfect MMO. Just leave out all the Burger King have it your way garbage and it will run forever.....
Gingerbread man illusions, goofy a$$ mounts, etc etc...
I am playing eq1 progression server Lockjaw. I can solo but in most places you can not. Go to Guk and see if can solo thru there. nope. mobs will aggro on you and its over. Go to Unrest > you might be able to solo a few trash mobs if you don't aggro more than one but go inside the house and see what you can do..basemant haha yeah!!! you might be able to right your name on the wall and run...you know about the trains to zone in that place.
So yes there are places you can solo like SRO Crocs they dont agro but soloing one blue or white maybe all you can do which is minimal xp... start taking on yellows and reds by yourself ain't gonna happen. you have to duo, trio or group out for fast exp. Doing SRO Crocs with a group is faster pulls and faster kills which means faster exp which is the same in most places. Not to mention you have to be looking out for Lockjaw, Spectre, Named Mummys, Giants cuz they will crush you!!!! Split paw is like that. I went in there the other day duo box druid and sk and got owned by agro mobs, Crushbone TR, Blackburrow , SOLs ,Permafrost, the Hole....you name it. You might be able to nibble off the front entrances of these dungeons but go deeper and pull by your self YOU WILL GET OWNED.... You want the drops you have to group. Its really not that hard....You can solo in qeynos newb area, karanas, greater faydark, common lands, west freeport newb, Nuktulos forest newb, Inthuleswamp/Ferrot newb, Butcher Block semi-newb, Tox Newb, thats about it ....lowbie areas xp is min. Fast Leveling = Group.... everyone knows that!!!! ( one other thing you can be in some of these upper newb areas like common lands be bonking on a blue conned wolf and next thing you know you have a yellow or red lioness or lion on your back beating you down cause of pathing....it can be risky! even in places like these that are not so difficult as dungeons there are groups or soloers pulling to the outer areas of the zone just to escape pathing or they are running for guards/zones).
So Making Pantheon a successful MMO shouldn't really be that hard!!!!!
We know what we like. We are just asking Brad and Team to shave off all the garbage that got added and then bring it to a new level. 2 coppers
On what Raven8Hawk worte - I totally forgot about totally wretched pathing algorithms. By all means, please include totally bizarre pathing that can simultaneously wreck the lazy soloer's day, but absolutely make the crafty soloer's!
Two of my favorite "got a week alone before other people found out and stole my camp" memories ever - the guards in Katta Castelum and the tentacle terrors in Crystal Caverns...path error soloing dreams!! A stutter step left and then back to the right was all it took to keep mobs from attacking pet, aggro'd on me, and never any threat whatsoever. I LOVED finding pathing glitches and uhm...not telling anyone... :D
So sure....have a few hidden spots where the pathing is so fubar the crafty soloer can work it to their advantage. Please. In a group centric game, the folks who figure those spots are reviled and hated, like the good necro...err...players they are. :D