chenzeme said: I think 3 continents for launch won't happen. I am betting 1, with 2 following as a free update. I think they might tie races to continents too. 50 for released races should be fine. I think you are spot on really. Although If they do 1 continent I would expect that to be complete (I.e everything for all levels, classes and races released). It's a really tough call though. It really depends on how good their tools really are. If these are spot on, we may be surprised. To be honest, I haven't given this much thought, too busy arguing with people, lol. It's an interesting topic for sure though. Probably worth a thread of its own.
Where would the 6 races that dont start on Kingsreach then have their racial cities? Then what happens when those continents are released with those racial cities? Demolish their Kingsreach starting space?
No. There needs to be complete starter cities for each races on their intended continent.
dorotea said: Vandraad - six months ago I might have agreed. Given developments since then I think the top priority is minimizing delay and if they can get a one-continent game out the door a lot faster they should do so. Despite the issues you correctly raise. Even if part of the way to reach this goal is to save some of the intended races for future release.
Without the 3 continents, having all 12 races starting on 1 continent there will not be enough content on that continent for everyone. Too many people in too small a space all competing for limited resources. That alone will drive a lot of people away.
Here's the other thing: All those races that aren't supposed to start on Kings reach, will their starting cities be as complete as they would be if they were on their correct continent? Or would their starting areas be just slap-dashed together? That's a pretty big middle-finger to those races not luckily enough to start on Kingsreach. Remember, Thronefast (the human starting city/zone) has has gone through at least 5 rebuilds over the years with many more small adjustments. So the Humans get 9 years of work on their city and surrounding zones. Faerthale, the elven starting area has been MIA for years and we've only seen a couple of snippets of Wild's End where the Halflings start. So really good if you want to play Human.
I do believe that people are sick and tired of games being released in a half-baked state. If Pantheon were released with only Kingsreach it wouldn't even be close to half-baked, but not-baked-at-all, sold to the public as a money grab with a prayer people buy it and then put up with the game in such a sorry state for long enough that the 'real' release version can finally be created.
It seems like a lot of fans have this sense of urgency to release something. I understand where this came from, but it might not be as urgent as some people think (and it might, only VR knows).
I personally don't think VR should start to rush to get something out the door. I think they need to make the best world they can make with the amount of resources they have. As long as they can keep the doors open I'd definitely vote for waiting for a "complete" world to release.
dorotea said: Vandraad - six months ago I might have agreed. Given developments since then I think the top priority is minimizing delay and if they can get a one-continent game out the door a lot faster they should do so. Despite the issues you correctly raise. Even if part of the way to reach this goal is to save some of the intended races for future release. Many of us remember the Vanguard release with one of three continents almost empty. That turned into a fiasco. But not for that reason. Because the content they did start with was buggy and incomplete because they were forced to release before it was really ready. So, when I urge speeding things up and paring whatever needs to be pared - the idea is for what they do have at release to be polished, well conceived and with minimal bugs. Not three crappy continents - one or two really good ones. Not every class and race halfway polished - half the classes and races quite well done. Do I like that compromise - no not very much at all. Do I prefer VR monetizing Pantheon-lite rather than an extraction game while they work to add the extra races, classes and continents? Hell yes.
How many examples are there of MMOs that released with incomplete worlds, devoid of content, and broken systems? How many of them ever recovered and grew their playerbase after launch?
At this point VR can't afford to release the game with anything less than what has been promised. That means a complete world map, full race/class matrix, and complete content up to level 50 including tradeskills, dungeons, and raids. Releasing anything less than that would be like dropping a nuke on the already blazing criticisms of the game and the team. The game wouldn't survive long enough to see any of that content completed, but a complete Pantheon experience would at least have a chance at being successful.
Ranarius said:It seems like a lot of fans have this sense of urgency to release something. I understand where this came from, but it might not be as urgent as some people think (and it might, only VR knows).
I personally don't think VR should start to rush to get something out the door. I think they need to make the best world they can make with the amount of resources they have. As long as they can keep the doors open I'd definitely vote for waiting for a "complete" world to release.
The sense of urgency is because VR themselves have taken not one, but two acts of desperation (247 and simple art style) and claimed they needed more funds. Yes they need to rush something out the door, that is where they seem to be at. Come December we will see if they have been hiding all the completed content with 3 finished continents all the dungeons/raids, classes, starting areas, etc. What if it's really as bad as it looks? Only Thronefast complete, half the races/classes incomplete, barely any dungeons and no raids ready yet? Will the people here still demand to wait another 5-10 years til it's ready?
The sense of urgency is because VR themselves have taken not one, but two acts of desperation (247 and simple art style) and claimed they needed more funds. Yes they need to rush something out the door, that is where they seem to be at.
I think you're taking one quote to the extreme and ignoring the other quote. They did say they wanted more funds to speed up the process, they've actually said that many times over the years. This most recent was the most public time they've said it and many people think that implies something that it might not.
Don't ignore the other quotes where they have also said many times that they have what they need to continue at the current pace and that they will continue working to make what they love.
chenzeme said:
The sense of urgency is generated by a few vocal individuals. 247 was not an act of desperation, it was supposed to be a testing tool initially with a possibility of commercialising it. There was no desperation to generate money. It was looked at as a way to increase revenue with a view to employing more staff to finish the game quicker for us all. The funds were not needed, just wanted. If you are expecting a complete game when we are let in, you are deluding yourselves. This will be to test each aspect of the game mechanics, this is not beta or alpha phase. Alpha players are being invited into pre-alpha testing. That is all. Wait, or don't. Simple!
chenzeme said:
Bro!
First, they are not underfunded, VR keep re-iterating they have funds to completion. THEY ARE NOT UNDERFUNDED!
lotuss79 said:
chenzeme said:
Bro!
First, they are not underfunded, VR keep re-iterating they have funds to completion. THEY ARE NOT UNDERFUNDED!
Is it even worth it to point out that 'you can't prove this!'
Provide a link to an official financial statement showing how much cash they have on hand.
"Underfunded" is a subjective term. You can't make it a declarative statement like this without proof.
As established, you never express your opinion as fact without documentation to back it up. (and it can't be "because VR says so")
One standard. If you're going to apply it to others, apply it to yourself as well.
Im afraid you might be *gasp*, disingenuous here.
But of course im sure there is a good reason why when you express an opinion as a fact its ok.
lotuss79:
As established, you never express your opinion as fact without documentation to back it up.
justdrop said:
Anytime you find a discrepancy in what they say, they claim it's rude or toxic and claim you're derailing. While I hope they have the funds, I'm wary considering VR said more will speed it up.
justdrop said:
Literally just admitted to blindly trusting a company in the face of doubt, then claims they won't stand by and consent to statements that quote facts or statistics without due diligence. HUH? And no, I'm not the only one you've made accusations or false statements about. You make tiny comments in your responses to people then accuse them of being problematic for having the nerve to defend their position while not holding yourself to the same standards you apply to them. Do you not find it odd that everyone you make comments about seems to have this problem with you?
I'm positive you'll enjoy reporting this as off-topic but knowing that you saw this and that you know everyone sees what you are is worth having it posted.
chenzeme said:
Bro!
First, they are not underfunded, VR keep re-iterating they have funds to completion. THEY ARE NOT UNDERFUNDED!
Second, they will have to develop and maintain whatever they release. They need to scale their work force to match. Whether it is the full world as per there original plans or a part, it makes no odds, that will have to take place.
Third (and most importantly) I never commented on whether the pre-alpha testers did the intended job or not. Some did, most didn't. VR have already stated they will be saying what they want tested and will also ask for players to do certain things if they need aspects tested. They will provide testing directions to players.
If that "They really did jack all bro..... like wtf???" was just a comment on the pre-alpha testers, then fair enough. If it was directed at something I said, then I stand by my post, pre-alpha is a test phase and should only be viewed in that way, regardless of what people may or may not have tested.
Grimseethe said: Show me how you can launch this game now that the following things are true. 1. You apparently have no money. 2. A vast majority of your players have left, because of the art style (myself included, im just waiting incase there is a chance you do the right thing) 3. Anyone new just discovering the game will see an art style they will likely hate and a forum filled with poeple who hate the game now (this means no more new money coming in) I feel most have checked out and those who havent are holding out hope you will change your mind, or are just unwilling to abandon the hundreds they spent on the game. Remember devs, im not your enemy, i'm actually your best friend...are you going to listen to your bests friends advice...im very good at business and games. Wouldnt be retired at 30 if i wasnt.
Yes. So, none of these things are true.
You're welcome.
Bro!
If they are seeking additional funds to help vastly SPEED up the creation of the game, they are UNDERFUNDED!.
Also, that comment was in regards to the pre-alpha testers, and not directed at you. I apologize if I came off as implying otherwise.
If I was building a house extension that was guaranteed to be 50k and take 6 months to complete. Say I had say 50k in the bank, then I would be fully funded. If I was given say 20k by my folks, then I would ask the builders to draft in more man power and complete in say 4 months. Either way I am fully funded. But I would prefer to complete in 4 months over 6, if I could. It's not underfunded, it just takes longer with less.
This is a good analogy. As I understand it, we can get it done with current funding. What would be awesome is if we could bring on some vital dev power to get some things moving, faster.