I know there is a lot of controversy going on about this leak, but maybe someone can help me understand this, but isn't this really just alpha and not pre-alpha? I want to understand this, but that looks a lot like an alpha phase to me, a phase that many people paid extra money to be part of, so if it is alpha, then VR failed to provide them their alpha access.
No, it is different. It is explicity different in that they have created a new perk called 247 access. Joppa confirmed in the Q&A last night that alpha pledgers will be given 247 access, and they will retain that, but that when MMO client testing comes back they won't necessarily have access to it (presumably that's if they are still considering it Pre-Alpha).
Jeremiahcp said: I am sorry, but I don't get it. How is it different? Also if it had not been for the leak would they still be giving this access to pledgers? This seems like a potential area of legal trouble for VR. Someone that paid for alpha access might decide to sue them over it.
There is not an alpha client at this time.
There is a Pre-Alpha MMO client that is currently suspended.
There is a 247 Game Mode client that is currently being tested by users with 247 client access.
When MMO client testing resumes, it may or may not be a Pre-Alpha client.
If you disagree with their terminology, that's your prerogative, but I definitely don't think you have a legal case.
Jeremiahcp said:I know there is a lot of controversy going on about this leak, but maybe someone can help me understand this, but isn't this really just alpha and not pre-alpha? I want to understand this, but that looks a lot like an alpha phase to me, a phase that many people paid extra money to be part of, so if it is alpha, then VR failed to provide them their alpha access.
The terms, beta, alpha, pre-alpha, etc are defined by the company that is creating the product, not by the customers or fans.
Ranarius said:Jeremiahcp said:I know there is a lot of controversy going on about this leak, but maybe someone can help me understand this, but isn't this really just alpha and not pre-alpha? I want to understand this, but that looks a lot like an alpha phase to me, a phase that many people paid extra money to be part of, so if it is alpha, then VR failed to provide them their alpha access.
The terms, beta, alpha, pre-alpha, etc are defined by the company that is creating the product, not by the customers or fans.
Yes, and no.
Beta and Alpha are common terms, with commonly used and understood definitions. As a dev, I have never heard of the term Pre-Alpha being used outside of Pantheon. The closest term would be "Proof of Concept" or "Prototype". VR just made up the term "Pre-Alpha" because it sounds better than those two (as in, conveying development is further along than it is), or because they are actively avoiding providing the Alpha access that so many people pledged for.
That said, developers are free to try and define a phase however they want. If they want to invent a phase called "Pre-Alpha" and have it be largely what most developers would call an Alpha, while making what would normally be called Alpha functionally just a Beta... They can. There are no hard set specifics defined for a development phase like "An alpha has to have ___ percent of features done" or something.
Generally, I think most development goes like:
Prototyping: Getting very a basic code foundation added, mostly focusing on being able to test out the viability of key unique systems ideas. (For example in this case maybe getting a basic player character controller setup, some terrain, crude NPC AI, auto attack combat, etc. Just some bare minimums to then test something like the weather system.) The point is to have something to iterate upon.
Proof of Concept: Further expanding on the ideas that makes a project unique, implementing something that can be more called a game. But still largely just something thats main purpose is to show yourselves or others that the idea of the project is taking shape. Its a solid foundation with which to work on.
Alpha: Now that you have a foundation, you start trying to add in all your ideas in their final form. Previous code is often completely scrapped and replaced with more solid, well refined code. During this phase you try creating all your ideas for the project.
Beta: Largely focused on refining existing content over adding anything new. The point of this phase is to get the project to a point of being a stable release candidate.
At the very least, this is a progression I have always followed with projects. But also one I have seen most follow for the most part. VR? Not so much. They slotted in their own Pre-Alpha phase, and have been stuck in that for most of the last decade. I used to think it was more because they didn't want to give Alpha access supporters what they paid for, but now... I'm more afraid its because they are perpetually stuck in the "Proof of Concept" phase. Which for 10 years later? Its rediculous!
DarkAkuma said:
Ranarius said:
Jeremiahcp said:
I know there is a lot of controversy going on about this leak, but maybe someone can help me understand this, but isn't this really just alpha and not pre-alpha? I want to understand this, but that looks a lot like an alpha phase to me, a phase that many people paid extra money to be part of, so if it is alpha, then VR failed to provide them their alpha access.
The terms, beta, alpha, pre-alpha, etc are defined by the company that is creating the product, not by the customers or fans.
Beta and Alpha are common terms, with commonly used and understood definitions. As a dev, I have never heard of the term Pre-Alpha being used outside of Pantheon.
Ranarius said:Jeremiahcp said:I know there is a lot of controversy going on about this leak, but maybe someone can help me understand this, but isn't this really just alpha and not pre-alpha? I want to understand this, but that looks a lot like an alpha phase to me, a phase that many people paid extra money to be part of, so if it is alpha, then VR failed to provide them their alpha access.
The terms, beta, alpha, pre-alpha, etc are defined by the company that is creating the product, not by the customers or fans.
Sweety said: I have been a software engineer for 20 years, and run a engineer team now. I do this for a living. So you can take this as gospel... Pre-Alpha is a commonly used term, however literally every company I have ever worked for has used different nomenclature for the lifecycle of a release. Generally, most companies include Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (sometimes called Delta or Gamma), RTM, then GA (generally Available) Live or Production. These are some basic terms and doesn't include things like Scrums and Sprints.
Jeremiahcp said:
Sweety said: I have been a software engineer for 20 years, and run a engineer team now. I do this for a living. So you can take this as gospel... Pre-Alpha is a commonly used term, however literally every company I have ever worked for has used different nomenclature for the lifecycle of a release. Generally, most companies include Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (sometimes called Delta or Gamma), RTM, then GA (generally Available) Live or Production. These are some basic terms and doesn't include things like Scrums and Sprints.
I honestly think this would be a question more for a lawyer and court than an engineer. Also, just a side note, I am not going to take your word as gospel, simply for the fact that you are just some random on the Internet and that generally is bad practice.
Jeremiahcp said: I honestly think this would be a question more for a lawyer and court than an engineer.
I don't disagree that there's not typically a formal testing phase called "Pre-Alpha", nor that VR is using these terms generally in a way that is not typical, but there's not really a universal standard for how these terms are used... there's just what is typical. Particularly as it relates to the law and a court, there's not going to be a legal standard as to what an alpha test is - a company is free to have as many test phases as they want and call them whatever they want.
If you're thinking that their decisions in that regard were for the purpose of fraud, I think you'd have a very difficult time proving that in court.
Sweety said:Jeremiahcp said:Fair enough, and certainly wise to have that attitude on the internet. Though, I will say that most of us on this forum are middle aged men (mostly men, some women) that loved EQ1 in our college or high school days. I haven't seen a lot of trolls or teens pretended to be someone else on the Pantheon forums. This isn't reddit. My point is, I think most people here, are who they say they are. Anyway, getting back on topic. I agree with your point of paying for Alpha and not getting it. While PA is a common software development stage, VR seems to be using PA as a barrier to bad press and community backlash because they game is awful and not remotely what they promised us. Which is very clear after watching the embarrassing 247 gameplay video.Sweety said: I have been a software engineer for 20 years, and run a engineer team now. I do this for a living. So you can take this as gospel... Pre-Alpha is a commonly used term, however literally every company I have ever worked for has used different nomenclature for the lifecycle of a release. Generally, most companies include Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (sometimes called Delta or Gamma), RTM, then GA (generally Available) Live or Production. These are some basic terms and doesn't include things like Scrums and Sprints.I honestly think this would be a question more for a lawyer and court than an engineer. Also, just a side note, I am not going to take your word as gospel, simply for the fact that you are just some random on the Internet and that generally is bad practice.
Personally I think they just over sold alpha, couldn't support the sales, so they decided to call it pre-alpha, sell that for a much higher price, and then continue to sell their fake alpha access.
Jeremiahcp said:Sweety said:Jeremiahcp said:Fair enough, and certainly wise to have that attitude on the internet. Though, I will say that most of us on this forum are middle aged men (mostly men, some women) that loved EQ1 in our college or high school days. I haven't seen a lot of trolls or teens pretended to be someone else on the Pantheon forums. This isn't reddit. My point is, I think most people here, are who they say they are. Anyway, getting back on topic. I agree with your point of paying for Alpha and not getting it. While PA is a common software development stage, VR seems to be using PA as a barrier to bad press and community backlash because they game is awful and not remotely what they promised us. Which is very clear after watching the embarrassing 247 gameplay video.Sweety said: I have been a software engineer for 20 years, and run a engineer team now. I do this for a living. So you can take this as gospel... Pre-Alpha is a commonly used term, however literally every company I have ever worked for has used different nomenclature for the lifecycle of a release. Generally, most companies include Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (sometimes called Delta or Gamma), RTM, then GA (generally Available) Live or Production. These are some basic terms and doesn't include things like Scrums and Sprints.I honestly think this would be a question more for a lawyer and court than an engineer. Also, just a side note, I am not going to take your word as gospel, simply for the fact that you are just some random on the Internet and that generally is bad practice.Personally I think they just over sold alpha, couldn't support the sales, so they decided to call it pre-alpha, sell that for a much higher price, and then continue to sell their fake alpha access.
But when they actually created the pre-alpha pledges right along side the alpha, beta and regular access pledges from the beginning, that kind of makes this statement moot.
arazons said:Jeremiahcp said:Sweety said:Jeremiahcp said:Fair enough, and certainly wise to have that attitude on the internet. Though, I will say that most of us on this forum are middle aged men (mostly men, some women) that loved EQ1 in our college or high school days. I haven't seen a lot of trolls or teens pretended to be someone else on the Pantheon forums. This isn't reddit. My point is, I think most people here, are who they say they are. Anyway, getting back on topic. I agree with your point of paying for Alpha and not getting it. While PA is a common software development stage, VR seems to be using PA as a barrier to bad press and community backlash because they game is awful and not remotely what they promised us. Which is very clear after watching the embarrassing 247 gameplay video.Sweety said: I have been a software engineer for 20 years, and run a engineer team now. I do this for a living. So you can take this as gospel... Pre-Alpha is a commonly used term, however literally every company I have ever worked for has used different nomenclature for the lifecycle of a release. Generally, most companies include Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (sometimes called Delta or Gamma), RTM, then GA (generally Available) Live or Production. These are some basic terms and doesn't include things like Scrums and Sprints.I honestly think this would be a question more for a lawyer and court than an engineer. Also, just a side note, I am not going to take your word as gospel, simply for the fact that you are just some random on the Internet and that generally is bad practice.Personally I think they just over sold alpha, couldn't support the sales, so they decided to call it pre-alpha, sell that for a much higher price, and then continue to sell their fake alpha access.
But when they actually created the pre-alpha pledges right along side the alpha, beta and regular access pledges from the beginning, that kind of makes this statement moot.
I don't see how, could you explain how that makes it "moot"?
