I'm not a fan of clients looking over my shoulders when I'm working on their property. I don't do it to professionals when they are on my property, working on my things. I never go into a kitchen at a restaurant and suggest that they add more garlic, mostly because it's rude and not just because they are often holding big sharp knives. I don't critique the pilot after a hard landing and I don't ever give my insights to the captain of a ship. I have paid all of these professionals and I trust they are doing their best because, more often than not, those people want to be successful, they want to feel pride and honor in a job well done and without guilt to reap the reward of another job and financial advancement. So I'm a little exasperated at some of the tones and proclamations seen lately here on the official forums. Now, it is not my place to suggest anyone change there behavior, but I don't think I am out of line to remind people that I myself make an effort to avoid being a prick, not always successfully, and if you're not going to rise up to the level I'm at then maybe you could take a minute to look in the mirror, because I'm a big dumdum with a quick temper and a habit of being wrong, and have discovered so many corners of my own ignorance it would make your head spin. So it would really make me feel more confident in the human species if you could all act better than me, again, because I'm the worst. Except for maybe Vandraad. /wink
Also, personally I gave those hundreds of dollars to VR so that they could attempt to make a great game. I still think they will create one. I don't deserve anything for the money I gave, I didn't sign a contract and neither did they. You couldn't sue them for breach of any contract. Leave them to create, is my advice, don't ask them to further manage your expectations, that takes resources away from the main task.
OK. I have actually complained to professionals when they failed to do their job, for example web developers that failed to do a proper job on a website I tasked them with. I told them I could do a better job and salvaged the project myself. Even if they had good intentions, or put 1000 hours in...what does that matter to me if the result is unsatisfactory? Just because VR got some of my money doesn't mean I sit back and say nothing when I think they screwed up. They gave me access to these forums in exchange for that pledge money and I'm using them to voice my displeasure. If you would rather sit back because you think things are fine that is your decision. OH and do keep in mind they promised access to the game in exchange for the pledges made. If there is no game or the game sucks well shoot the money is lost, so be it. I have given input for EQ2 and Vanguard:SOH as well during those games development. Not all my input was positive for those games either.
/snark_engaged: I'll spend emotional effort where I think it would be of use . I'm not going to waste my time and that of others, with unproductive whining. So instead I'll use all my resolve and really try to focus on the task of going down stairs and getting a cookie, because that's more important to me than shaking my finger at whomever is creating virtual shrubbery at a speed I deem a little slow.
I had to read that a few times, but I am convinced that this is indeed the authentic StoneFish.
Thunderleg said:
So, about that cookie... /man-hug
I forgot about the cookie halfway there and became riveted thinking, why do people in ship mutinies always ask for "better treatment"? I'd ask for a pinball machine, because with all that rocking back and forth you'd probably be able to get a lot of free games.
Then later, I discovered that the wife ate the cookie, so now I'm looking up divorce lawyers but none of them want to be paid in banana nut bread.
Man, those were some good drugs that gerbil had on him.
StoneFish said:I'm not a fan of clients looking over my shoulders when I'm working on their property. I don't do it to professionals when they are on my property, working on my things. I never go into a kitchen at a restaurant and suggest that they add more garlic, mostly because it's rude and not just because they are often holding big sharp knives. I don't critique the pilot after a hard landing and I don't ever give my insights to the captain of a ship. I have paid all of these professionals and I trust they are doing their best because, more often than not, those people want to be successful, they want to feel pride and honor in a job well done and without guilt to reap the reward of another job and financial advancement. So I'm a little exasperated at some of the tones and proclamations seen lately here on the official forums. Now, it is not my place to suggest anyone change there behavior, but I don't think I am out of line to remind people that I myself make an effort to avoid being a prick, not always successfully, and if you're not going to rise up to the level I'm at then maybe you could take a minute to look in the mirror, because I'm a big dumdum with a quick temper and a habit of being wrong, and have discovered so many corners of my own ignorance it would make your head spin. So it would really make me feel more confident in the human species if you could all act better than me, again, because I'm the worst. Except for maybe Vandraad. /wink
Also, personally I gave those hundreds of dollars to VR so that they could attempt to make a great game. I still think they will create one. I don't deserve anything for the money I gave, I didn't sign a contract and neither did they. You couldn't sue them for breach of any contract. Leave them to create, is my advice, don't ask them to further manage your expectations, that takes resources away from the main task.
Would you question the pilot if they landed the plane in the lake, right next to the runway? Would you question the chef if your steak was clearly microwaved? If you never expect anything from professionals, there's no reason for them to care. Now you might think these are apples to oranges comparisons but you know what else is? Comparing far left field changes after 10 years of development, to a pilot landing a plane.
It sounds like you need to drastically raise your standards. Being a doormat, only serves those who step on you. Don't be a scam artists dream client.
RedGang said:Would you question the pilot if they landed the plane in the lake, right next to the runway? Would you question the chef if your steak was clearly microwaved? If you never expect anything from professionals, there's no reason for them to care. Now you might think these are apples to oranges comparisons but you know what else is? Comparing far left field changes after 10 years of development, to a pilot landing a plane.
It sounds like you need to drastically raise your standards. Being a doormat, only serves those who step on you. Don't be a scam artists dream client.
I'm thrilled to be presented the opportunity to expand my position and address the above reply.
First the tone: You and I do not have a relationship of any complexity, we are only but dogs pissing on a neighborhood tree. This is a forum discussing the creation of a recreational past time for the enjoyment of people with free time and disposable income. You and I are not adversaries or competitors. There seems to be little reason or necessity to refer to me as a doormat, and if I happen to enjoy Bellitranix the Dominatrix stepping on me then it's my life and I'll live it anyway I wish. I'm sure you're sorry about this unnecessary insult and I will accept your humble apology accompanied with flowers and chocolates.
Let us now take a look at your use of the sentence "It sounds like you need to drastically raise your standards." In my post I mentioned: a hard landing: the lack of sufficient garlic in a meal: and the operations of a vessel at sea, all normal things, no catastrophe, none of which could lead a reader to conclude a failure or serious error has occurred because of the actions of the professional persons involved. No reasonable person would equate a hard landing with crashing into a lake, but that is exactly what you did. You took my small anecdote and extrapolated to the extreme so as to better fit your desired position, once you set me into your imaginary construction of being someone who would act nonchalant about crashing into a lake, you get to bravely and intelligently point your finger and proclaim that this seems unreasonable. You can also now safely criticize the man who is so weak and floppy, so lacking in backbone that they would happily pay for a microwaved ribeye, BTW in my opinion a bigger crime than crashing a plane, because really.... I'd rather you somehow light the microwave on fire and use that fire to cook the steak but I've lost my thread now. I should get a nice steak tonight, anyway. Try to avoid twisting another's word(s) into a ridiculous extreme so as to make your point more reasonable.
"If you never expect anything from professionals, there's no reason for them to care.". Avoid using the word "never". It sets up an argument of absolutes, this leaves little room for maneuvering your arguments further, also it allows others to dismiss your opinion. It's just a very silly sentence and would only work on toddlers and feeble minds, and a toddler hasn't beaten me in a game of checkers for years now.
Onward we progress to the apple and oranges and seemingly a proclamation that you are having some difficulty understanding analogy. It's not the changes to the game or the plane itself that is the focus of my analogy, it's the trust we place in professional people. I trust a pilot and I trust the game designers, and neither will find benefit from unstructured criticism.
Finally, I would like to point out that the proximity of the lake to the runway doesn't diminish or add to the value of whether or not landing in a lake is desirable. If they land the plane in the lake, sure, I'm going to have some questions. I'm a little worried you think I'm fine with landing in lakes, I assure you I always order the non-lake landing flights, but you don't know me well enough, but I am a little odd so maybe this is a bit my fault. Just to clarify, I prefer non-lake landings.
The last sentence is the most hurtful, or confusing. Am I the scam artists client? Did I hire the scam artist to scam myself or to scam another? Do I get the goods that the artist scammed? Can I now add a line item to my taxes for supporting the arts? Haha, just having fun here, I know you meant victim or target or mark.
So here we be, you and I, and I must admit I'm a little sad. Sad because I'm stuck inside today and this is what I chose to do with my time. I'm very bored at the moment, I felt like it was my duty to make the attempt to set you upon a better path, one where you could more accurately and clearly mock and chastise others. I hope I was of some help today, because I weep when I imagine you, out there in the world, making decisions that could affect others, being in charge of a motor vehicle, or having possession of a pack of matches. Now this has taken a turn and some moderator is wondering if I sould be told to sit down and behave, and ya, maybe, I'm a little mean sometimes and this is not really a productive exchange. My only defence for being so snarky is that first sentence you wrote. The use of the comma in the first sentence. I make mistakes all the time, but you made me read that sentence, like, 4 or 8 times. I just got stuck on it, and the more I read it, the more I became enraged. Because if we are in the lake, after flying around in a plane, I would really really hope the people of earth would assume that I had myself assumed we had missed the runway. In the lake = missed the runway!!!! ......,..WHY DID YOU INSIST ON TELLING US THE LAKE WAS NEXT TO THE RUNWAY! WHYYYYYY! I CAUSES ME PAIN AND ANGUISH, I AM SO CONFUSED!!!! why why why why why????? Oh, wait, no, I wouldn't question the pilot after crashing into the lake that is right next to the runway, the pilot clearly missed the runway. I would have questioned the pilot if we were crashed into a lake that was far away from the runway. I would ask "where are we?" "What lake is this?". I guess that was a good question, good for you RedGang, /thumbs-up
Stonefish,
I do disagree with your take on "not bothering the professionals" argument. I appreciate your anecdotes, but I've always seen anecdotes as slippery things that can be difficult to hold onto. As you correctly accused RedGang of, your anecdote also set up a premise, albeit at the opposite extreme. Your anecdote of a rough landing sets up the premise that we basically got what we paid for, a flight to some destination, everyone was safe and basically on time, just the landing was a little rough. The other extreme compares Pantheon development to a plane crashing in a lake. You don't get what you paid for, you're not safe and maybe not even alive, and there wasn't a landing, it was a crash. Those are two very extreme premises that probably don't reflect reality.
I think that your argument at its core is that VR are professional game developers, and as a not-professional not-game-developers we should essentially let them get about what they are doing with minimal feedback or direction from us. I don't think that really works in this scenario. I didn't pay market price for a plane ticket, repair work, or steak with the legal expectation of recieving those things regardless of quality. I paid 4 times the market price for a video game with no expectation that I will ever be able to play it. Why is that? Because I wasn't buying a video game. I was buying a promise, and I was buying the opportunity to be part of this community and the ability to provide feedback to VR during the development process. I don't believe that in the world of crowdfunding a company has any reasonable expectation of not having an open communication loop with the people who funded them.
To your second point about not being a prick. I agree. There is a lot of in-fighting happening on the forum right now. People are throwing around a lot of hyperbole. There is a lot of absolutist "you either agree with me or you are complicit in lying and a moral pariah". There is a lot of room for nuance that is being ignored on the forum. Example: Did VR lie, or did they exersize their reasonable expectation that they don't have to share everything with the community the day after they decide something? Another example: Is PRotF a scam, or are the developers truly working their hardest to bring us the MMO they promised but through mismanagement and inexperience have stumbled big time.
There is nuance and room for other perspectives while still communicating to VR your legitimate feelings of anger or disappointment, or your dispassionate assessment of their decisions. And attacking other community members for having a different perspective than you is completely unnecessary and unhelpful in my opinion. Although I did fall into this trap while defending against someone I perceived as attacking the community. I attacked back which does make me a bit of a hypocrite.
You alluded that it's unreasonable to question professionals. I asked you two questions which fly(pun) in the face of that. That is a far cry from straw-manning. As you know, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to question any professional and they are much less than landing a plane in a lake.
If you do not question services, purely on the basis that they are "professional", you will undeniably be used as a doormat. I don't think that's the case here, as your reply is proof enough. What's more likely is you're using examples you don't really believe, in order to white knight for VR. People tend to defend their bad investments/purchases, whether it's stocks or a simple movie ticket. Maybe it's the sunk cost fallacy or maybe it's pure stubborness. Doesn't really matter, it results in a lesser final product.
Like I previously stated. If it's unreasonable to compare a hard landing to landing in a lake, then it's certainly unreasonable to compare a hard landing to 10 years of questionable decision making. Have you ever seriously criticized any decision VR has made on here, contructively, structured or otherwise? If you're having trouble answering with 600+ posts, I'll just have to rest my case. Here's a more apt analogy: don't wait for the titanic to sink before you warn of the iceberg
You don't need to be a pilot to spot a bad one and you don't need to be a manager to spot poor management.