Forums » Pantheon Classes

Plausible medieval fantasy weaponry

    • 7 posts
    July 3, 2023 2:02 AM PDT

    Hello there,

    This topic is going to be about proposing a believable (plausible, somehow grounded) set of weaponry for Pantheon MMO.

     

    Why aim for believable, plausible things in a fantasy setting?

    While Pantheon is undoubtedly a medieval-styled fantasy, it certainly has humans (and similar humanoids) as races found within. It also seems to follow many of the laws of physics that we know ourselves, thus not everything would necessarily be handwaved as 'fantasy' or 'magic' in every scenario.

    Creating parts of a setting that we can believe in would be possible for us is something that enrichens the immersion, makes it more relatable to us. When we can imagine 'us' traveling through the same paths that 'our characters' take, it creates another kind of experience - something that expert worldbuilders and roleplaying gamemasters attempt to do whenever possible to keep their readers and players 'enchanted' by the setting.

     

    What do you propose? There's weaponry in the title, so what about the other aspects?

    I propose a few changes to the currently presented weaponry to make it more plausible, and potentially create some additional 'archetype/fantasy' as a duelist (which we'll talk about soon). As for the other aspects, I wanted to dedicate this purely to weaponry, as we have to understand that Pantheon is a "high fantasy MMO" and some things have to be taken into account when you have ogres wandering around which clearly have superior strength to humans. Besides, Pantheon is really well-crafted as is and only this weaponry aspect was something (in my opinion) worth mentioning to be readjusted.

     

    1) Battle axes were not bearing a double slashing edge on both ends in any pre or post medieval depictions and records.
    This was for a good reason - the centre of mass that is the axe head would be overburdened by an additional, equally sized slashing side, and thus cause less effective strikes by both ends. At the same time, even masterful warriors could not efficiently 'turn' that axe to another side as fast as just winding up the attack and striking again. The 'other edge' hit was performed primarily (if not solely) by swords which had a construction specifically aimed at doing agile maneuvers.

    What could be done instead of only putting a single-cutting sided axe (which was a frequently seen weapon across all the periods) is throwing some variants: cutting side, bashing side (small hammer), spike on-top. This could easily be mix-and-matched, as was done so by blacksmiths back in the day, not every axe had a spike on top, etc.

    This solution would effectively replace the double-bladed "Labrys" that was never used in combat with something much more efficient to a real warrior. Axes were versatile, as they could slash, pierce and strike with blunt force depending on how well-equipped an axe was. Quite the can openers of the early days.

    Some light-hearted yet accurate material for watching: Shadiversity on the double edged axe

    2) Single weapon vs dual wielding vs two-handed

    Let's talk about dual wielding. This was a rare art, however it must be admitted that it was indeed present, albeit scarcely. In any case it was used, it was with well-balanced weapons such as a sword (rapier) and a dagger. Some recordings list Miyamoto Musashi using a katana (longsword) and a wakizashi (shortsword) at the same time. All of the sources point out to dual wielding being used with a smaller weapon accompanying a regular weapon, not two regular-sized weapons.

    This had a solid reasoning, as human hand-eye coordination and reflexes were one of the limiting factors in being able to consequently use two regular-sized weapons at once. Many times the weapon was just held there, used only for parrying blows, or a strike after the other one was performed. Simultaneous strikes with two regular-sized weapons have many more issues, such as accidentally hititng your other full-sized weapon (or even hurting yourself), tiring out the warrior faster and limiting some nimble maneuvers from occurring. In most of the cases, it was more of a burden than a help, thus when it was used - it was done with a smaller off-hand.

    As previously, some material to watch: HEMA instructors on dual wielding swords and Skallagrim on dual wielding and the cross-block

     

    Now let's go towards two-handed weapons. A common misconception is that they were clunky or heavy in particular. To compare, an arming sword (one-handed sword) weights around 1,1 kg whereas a zweihander usually weights between 2-3 kg. The additional weight is easily offset by the fact that a two-handed weapon is used with both hands, thus the actual swing recovery is just as fast as with a regular blade.

    While at two-handers, they do not hit harder. A blade's stopping power was, in simple terms, mostly based on how 'heavy' it was. A katzbalger, which was a wide shortsword, had much more stopping force than an average greatsword. Where the two-handers excelled, however, was their additional range that was a great advantage in combat. Besides, if a blade landed a hit on an unprotected area, it was very bad for the victim regardless of the blade type.

     

    Where does this connect to Pantheon? As could be seen, a few classes were featured on videos dual wielding with two full-sized weapons. While it may not bother some, it might lower the immersion due to unplausible weaponry. Some of the biggest offenders are the dual wielded spears, which would otherwise require a lot of plot armour to be used efficiently. I suggest to give review to the list of weapon pairings which can be dual wielded together to provide a more immersive experience, and in other places allowing two-handers to be used instead (if they weren't already allowed). Utilising a smaller off-hand, or even opting for some off-hand charms could provide for some interesting 'archetypes' as well.

    This is where we talk about the duelist. As can be deducted from the above, two regular-sized weapons do not provide a viable advantage versus one regular-sized weapon. This is an opportunity to introduce a certain 'fighter fantasy' to melee classes, where they can opt for a single weapon offering certain playstyles: agile fighter based on dodges, swashbuckler... Even a fighter holding some off-hand miscellaneous magical object. As important of a factor as darkness is, this would also open up more possibilities of actually holding a torch instead of opting for a belt lamp. They would still be sacrificing a certain gameplay possibility, where they'd go for a shield or a smaller off-hand weapon instead, or even a two-handed weapon.

     

    Thank you for reading, please join the discussion and share your thoughts about adding more immersion to Pantheon's equipment.
    I apologise in advance if this reading was too long or that I simplified some details (which some history enthusiasts are very welcome to expand on or correct me), however this is a complex topic so some compromises had to be made.

    • 888 posts
    July 10, 2023 3:48 PM PDT

    Personally,  the way I'd like to see weapons made more realistic would be to give them more realistic characteristics. Like how some weapons are able to parry much better than others (especially against specific weapons). Your weapon, not your armor, should be the biggest factor in if you get hit.  

    There's lots of very interesting aspects of melee fighting that rarely ever get used in games.  Like forcing NPCs to move around more and parry more frequently should drain endurance faster. We should be able to '"run" our opponents. 

    • 2752 posts
    July 13, 2023 9:58 AM PDT

    "it might lower the immersion due to unplausible weaponry"

    I'd argue the rule of cool and general fun takes the prize here. Especially given the number of people who might be fully versed in historical weapons use is very small, and of them those that care in a high fantasy video game is smaller still. 

     

    Only things weapon related I'd like to see is more of them. Whips, flails, kpinga, macuahuitl, hook swords, khopesh, urumi, and whatever else. 

    • 8 posts
    July 17, 2023 5:13 PM PDT

    Don't bring a whip to an OGRE fight.