Jobeson said: Joppa confirmed in an interview recently Pantheon was going to use instances for raids and dungeon bosses. Anyone able to say if will we fall into the standard weekly raid and daily dungeon format or will it be purely the key system limiting access? As in if you farm the key twice a day you could kill the boss twice day.
If this ends up being true, I will not be playing Pantheon. For multiple reasons, not the least of which this flies in the face of an open world MMO.
If I had to guess, cause that's all any of us can do at this point, I would say they are going to use instances to prevent things like out of party healing/raises for raids, locking boss encounters to the party that spawned/farmed them, and making you work as a small group for important dungeons, not having one overpowered group barrell through something while a horde of weaker folks follow behind so they can camp somewhere for hours or even days that they couldn't get to on their own.
What really clues me in to VR introducing instancing (which they have said since the very earliest days that instancing would be used only when it was appropriate) as much subtantial is in this picture. The quotes around 'Open World' isn't, to me, a typo or even a mistake but a deliberate statement that VR's interpretation of 'open world' will not be the same definition of other games who employ open worlds. It will be quite different.
If the reference to dungeon bosses means that after the boss fight is triggered it will be kept separate from other players in the area - this is not new at all. Over the years things such as the fight being in a room that no one else can enter have been discussed many times - I mean by developers not player speculation.
Whether it works like an instance or not is of little importance if the bottom line is that the dungeon is open world and after a group triggers a boss fight that fight cannot be interfered with by other players. Instancing would work no differently from blocking other players from the area the fight occurs in or simply preventing any effects cast by other players from affecting either the group or the mobs.
While I want an open world game - I have always seen value in using instances under very limited circumstances. To allow a story to be told without interference. To cope with overcrowding in starter areas for the first weeks or months. To prevent certain especially important content from being blocked from the rest of the server by one or two aggressive (and not very nice) guilds.
He specifically said for some bosses, NOT all bosses. It won't be presented the way that other MMOS have done it. Despite that folks are already spinning a doom and gloom narrative. One of the many reasons given is that some former EQ players were concerned about large guilds monopolizing all of the raid content. While that will still happen, you will also have a 'some' raids and dungeon bosses that are instanced so that others can have access to content. Other, very thoughtful, reasons were given over the years.
I won't comment anymore on this, cause it's already concerning reading some of the posts and comments on the internet. Instead of seeing the sincerity and specificity of VR's intentions, folks seem so very eager to make this a hugely negative thing(and 'betrayal' of the tenents) despite it being mentioned many times before in past streams and DRTs.
carry on...
IMO:
Glad to hear it confirmed again after all these years. Instancing is the one of the few ways to prevent other players from interfering with open world progression, where necessary.
Plenty of games that permit FFA open world PvP, and I've played most of them. At least with this design, some content that's required for 'key moments' can be experienced the way the designers intended, rather than at the mercy of other players.
It's been said on these forums many times, but ANY system that prevents other players from interfering will be considered instancing by some paying customers, because it provides the same mechanical separation of players actions as instancing. Even phasing, in the WoW sense, is considered instancing by some. Personal or smart loot is considered instancing by some. Locked encounters is considered instancing by some. It's nice to see the target demographic being refined.
Jobeson said: Joppa confirmed in an interview recently Pantheon was going to use instances for raids and dungeon bosses.
Could you please tell me enough details about where/when you heard that, so that I can go listen to it myself?
No intention to dispute your accuracy, I've just been in too many discussions that hinged on the exact meaning of one particular word or phrase in something said by a Dev for me to take a report that is so significant for game development at face value.
Also as others have mentioned, VR told us years ago that instances were not completely ruled out, as they would use them if a particular situation warranted it. And major/raid bosses were one of the examples they gave as a potentially necessary place. They just affirmed then - and continue to affirm - that they prefer not to have them unless really necessary.
Jothany said:Jobeson said: Joppa confirmed in an interview recently Pantheon was going to use instances for raids and dungeon bosses.Could you please tell me enough details about where/when you heard that, so that I can go listen to it myself?
No intention to dispute your accuracy, I've just been in too many discussions that hinged on the exact meaning of one particular word or phrase in something said by a Dev for me to take a report that is so significant for game development at face value.
Also as others have mentioned, VR told us years ago that instances were not completely ruled out, as they would use them if a particular situation warranted it. And major/raid bosses were one of the examples they gave as a potentially necessary place. They just affirmed then - and continue to affirm - that they prefer not to have them unless really necessary.
Jothany, it's in the Desperate World interview.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/14213/disparate-world-interviews-joppa
Zorkon said: Jothany, it's in the Desperate World interview.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/14213/disparate-world-interviews-joppa
This reminds me, I watched a bit, then had to stop and never got back to it :)
Thanks Zorkon, appreciate it.
Tigersin said:"It's not that Pantheon will have no instancing." This is about the only quote worth anything. Everything else is tossing around ideas. The discussion is yet to be had.
Joppa mentioned the starting areas when the game releases as an example of where it makes sense to have limited instancing.
"Joppa mentioned the starting areas when the game releases as an example of where it makes sense to have limited instancing."
Good - some of us have been pushing this for years as an area where an extreme "no instancing ever under any circumstances" stance might hurt the game badly. Far better to have 10 versions of a starter area (all sharing the same chat and with an ability to move from version to version to play with friends) consolidating to one area after a few months than to have one hugely overcrowded area or to have 10 servers merging into one after a few months.
Kaynrath said:Tigersin said:"It's not that Pantheon will have no instancing." This is about the only quote worth anything. Everything else is tossing around ideas. The discussion is yet to be had.
Joppa mentioned the starting areas when the game releases as an example of where it makes sense to have limited instancing.
Absolutely. That's what I'm talking about.
I had no problem with EQ2's starting area.. I mean I don't want exactly that in Pantheon but starting areas are fine. My point was, at this point, he's just throwing ideas out about instancing. I'm really looking forward to finding out the details after PTV. I used to be a "no instancing" guy but I've come around. This is a great team of guys and they'll be careful with the implentation , I'm sure.
edit: guys/girls/autobots etc
I always called that population management stuff sharding since it often is large scale zones that often run on temporary servers to keep performance ideal.
Using it for launch / expansion launches is a great system when you have a huge swath of players all at once. Joppa has talked a ton about over population pushing players to go explore elsewhere so I hope they will only use it around launches otherwise they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Kalok said:Jobeson said: Joppa confirmed in an interview recently Pantheon was going to use instances for raids and dungeon bosses. Anyone able to say if will we fall into the standard weekly raid and daily dungeon format or will it be purely the key system limiting access? As in if you farm the key twice a day you could kill the boss twice day.
If this ends up being true, I will not be playing Pantheon. For multiple reasons, not the least of which this flies in the face of an open world MMO.
It has also always been on the table as a tool for making Pantheon as good as it can be, as far back as 2015:
Will the game have instances?
Pantheon will support instancing to a limited degree, using it primarily for storytelling in a linear fashion, perhaps at the end of an epic quest. The vast majority of content, however, will exist in non-instanced shared zones.
The above could easily be extended toward major dungeon bosses, certain raids, etc. Really any reasonably high challenge encounters where skill can (and should) be the primary filter, not player gating.
I don't think there is going to be a lockout. It will probably be an area temporarily locked off from the rest of the dungeon while your group kills a triggered boss. At least that is how I recall the instance talk through the years.
As much as people hate instances, they were introduced for good reason. The problem , as with most good things, is that too much is also bad. I have no doubt the use of instances in a limited capacity will make Pantheon a better game. FWIW, I don't see them instancing off entire dungeons which is what everyone thinks of first when "instancing" is mentioned. I do hope that the way they instance lets people watch their battle from the outside. I've always wanted to see guilds fight big raid bosses as a spectator rather than seeing a stream or something like that.
dorotea said:If the reference to dungeon bosses means that after the boss fight is triggered it will be kept separate from other players in the area - this is not new at all. Over the years things such as the fight being in a room that no one else can enter have been discussed many times - I mean by developers not player speculation.
Whether it works like an instance or not is of little importance if the bottom line is that the dungeon is open world and after a group triggers a boss fight that fight cannot be interfered with by other players. Instancing would work no differently from blocking other players from the area the fight occurs in or simply preventing any effects cast by other players from affecting either the group or the mobs.
While I want an open world game - I have always seen value in using instances under very limited circumstances. To allow a story to be told without interference. To cope with overcrowding in starter areas for the first weeks or months. To prevent certain especially important content from being blocked from the rest of the server by one or two aggressive (and not very nice) guilds.
Dikenzu said:He specifically said for some bosses, NOT all bosses. It won't be presented the way that other MMOS have done it. Despite that folks are already spinning a doom and gloom narrative. One of the many reasons given is that some former EQ players were concerned about large guilds monopolizing all of the raid content. While that will still happen, you will also have a 'some' raids and dungeon bosses that are instanced so that others can have access to content. Other, very thoughtful, reasons were given over the years.
I won't comment anymore on this, cause it's already concerning reading some of the posts and comments on the internet. Instead of seeing the sincerity and specificity of VR's intentions, folks seem so very eager to make this a hugely negative thing(and 'betrayal' of the tenents) despite it being mentioned many times before in past streams and DRTs.
carry on...
Both of these ^
You can't have a "Massive Multiplayer Online" game without a "massive" amount of content, and some of that content, at some point, is going to need to be instanced. Having "instanced content" does NOT mean that it will not be an "open world", it just means that some content will be inaccessible while simultaneously accessing other content. The acclimation system in itself is going to be a HUGE version of "instancing" in which some people will have access while others will not. That does not make the game any less "open world".
A free-for-all environment is nice in the abstract, but it fails once the practical reality hits: this is a game where the vast majority of subscribers will NOT be dedicated 'live in the world' clan members. Pantheon absolutely has to find a way to ensure that the dominant clans can not monopolize a feature/area/engagement. Instances are the most cost effective solution. It's not a debate, it's a reality of the current economy and tools available.
That being the true state of things leaves us with a choice. Trust the team at VR to do their upmost to adhere to the tenants they have used all this time and to make a large, fun, full adventure for us all to enjoy together. Or assume that VR is just a bunch of fools that know nothing about game design and would rather be eating banana nut bread on their private island they get to using their crystal aeroplane they stole from wonder-woman. I trust the VR team.
StoneFish said:A free-for-all environment is nice in the abstract, but it fails once the practical reality hits: this is a game where the vast majority of subscribers will NOT be dedicated 'live in the world' clan members. Pantheon absolutely has to find a way to ensure that the dominant clans can not monopolize a feature/area/engagement. Instances are the most cost effective solution. It's not a debate, it's a reality of the current economy and tools available.
That being the true state of things leaves us with a choice. Trust the team at VR to do their upmost to adhere to the tenants they have used all this time and to make a large, fun, full adventure for us all to enjoy together. Or assume that VR is just a bunch of fools that know nothing about game design and would rather be eating banana nut bread on their private island they get to using their crystal aeroplane they stole from wonder-woman. I trust the VR team.
Well said, Sir. VR is thoughtfully and intentionally addressing a lot of the issues from previous MMOS and creating a game we can all enjoy and make our MMO home.
StoneFish said:Or assume that VR is just a bunch of fools that know nothing about game design and would rather be eating banana nut bread on their private island they get to using their crystal aeroplane they stole from wonder-woman. I trust the VR team.
I wish VR had star citizen money for this joke to make sense.