Someone who works for VR said my thread went off the rails and we should choose topics that have more value. I would love to message them, but the software does not allow it. I implore the team to consider my argument because I am right & whoever closed this thread is just wrong. This is the kind of feedback you guys need to be looking for.
Again, I am right. Pantheon will get more investment if unpledged people aren't able to see these forums that make the game look like a failed project.
So your suggestion is to hide everything and then have people be disappointed afterwards and do chargebacks? If people aren't going to buy a package because of forum activity, they will make sure their money doesn't stay invested regardless. It is shady to hide everything from the public and hope they just stick it out because they are too lazy to contact their bank. On top of that, how many people need to do chargebacks before word spreads that they are hiding things to "scam" people out of money on "vaporware". (No, I do not think it is vaporware, but that *will* be the spin)
This project is what it is. People deserve to know what they are buying into whether you think it is good or bad. There are plenty of people who mull over this forum and are ok with what they see and buy packages because of it and I am sure there are plenty who read them and decide this is not the game for them. Everyone deserves the full picture when money is involved.
I think you both have valid points. I am a long-time supporter/lurker and don't feel like there is much left to discuss until Alpha begins. New people will see the forums as a bit dead, and that isn't great for generating paying pledgers. It may be a good idea for the devs to ensure what is being discussed/shared on the Discord server is also covered here in the forums (Outside of NDA-related goodies).
In my opinion, the only way that hiding the forums would be beneficial is if the Pantheon team pushes everyone to Discord as the only source of current discussions/interactions with the devs.
The forums are what they are, it's a dated communication tool that isn't terribly useful at this stage of development. Much of the community interaction happens on Discord at this point - the forum use sharply dropped off over time as the Discord moved from VIP only to all pledgers. Putting much weight on the activity of forums in this age is a mistake.
Nexira : "So your suggestion is to hide everything and then have people be disappointed afterwards and do chargebacks? "
Me : "I said nothing like that & no one gets refunds"
Nexira : "If people aren't going to buy a package because of forum activity, they will make sure their money doesn't stay invested regardless."
Me : "I'm not saying people aren't going to invest because of forum activity. I'm saying for new people interested from one of the videos posted on YouTube. The path they take through researching more about the game leads them to the forums. If there are 45 million posts & threads, yet 70% of the 20 forums haven't had a single post in 3 months, it "LOOKS" like Pantheon is a dead project that used to have a lot of interest. If this is what I saw when I came to the forums I wouldn't have invested. My own best friend I played EQ with thinks Pantheon is a failed project & we debate it. People like myself who have been looking for a new MMO for the last 20 years have watched 99% crash & burn & the numbers just looking at the forums screams not to invest.
Through a friendly debate with Bazgrim, along with the stream I saw watching the dungeon crawl in the goblin mines. I have become convinced that there is a sincere effort to make this game, & I am super excited about the future. Though bring up Pantheon on EQ Live & P99 /ooc. You will see a sizable part of our target market believes Pantheon is a failed MMO or cash grab. I think VR should be looking for ways to fight this perception in the market. The increase of YouTube content has been great for that."
Nexira: "It is shady to hide everything from the public and hope they just stick it out because they are too lazy to contact their bank. On top of that, how many people need to do chargebacks before word spreads that they are hiding things to "scam" people out of money on "vaporware". (No, I do not think it is vaporware, but that *will* be the spin)"
Me : "I'm saying make all or some of the forums only visible to logged in pledges just so the public doesn't see the lack of traffic in what once was very active forums. Or maybe consolidate / prune them somehow. I don't know the best way to fix it, I'm just trying to point out the problem. I'm not saying anything that would be perceived as shady."
Nexira : "There are plenty of people who mull over this forum and are ok with what they see and buy packages because of it and I am sure there are plenty who read them and decide this is not the game for them. Everyone deserves the full picture when money is involved."
Me: "In no scenario does any of us or the public get a full picture. Nor should we advocate for a full picture. VR needs their privacy. They also need good substantive feedback & someone out there understands my point =)
Hey Savanja. I only see an option to quote you or report you. I tried clicking your avatar & it said I didn't have permission to view the page. It's ok though. Feel free to lock or delete any of my threads. I didn't mean to come off so combative. Happy to see VR reading this stuff.
Mateowanna said:Hey Savanja. I only see an option to quote you or report you. I tried clicking your avatar & it said I didn't have permission to view the page.
Go to your messages on the navigation bar to send/compose messages to other members.
Nexira: "It is shady to hide everything from the public and hope they just stick it out because they are too lazy to contact their bank. On top of that, how many people need to do chargebacks before word spreads that they are hiding things to "scam" people out of money on "vaporware". (No, I do not think it is vaporware, but that *will* be the spin)"
Me : "I'm saying make all or some of the forums only visible to logged in pledges just so the public doesn't see the lack of traffic in what once was very active forums. Or maybe consolidate / prune them somehow. I don't know the best way to fix it, I'm just trying to point out the problem. I'm not saying anything that would be perceived as shady."
Well then what you are asking for already exists. There are at least 2 levels of forums that are blocked from the public. The VIP one probably has the most activity but I wouldn't know b/c I am not that high of a level and the champion level. We also have a discord that is for pledges with decent activity. I don't see a reason why non pledged people should be deprived of this forum to see past posts and possibly participate in new ones. There are very good discussions here that will probably convince people to pledge. These forums have a plethora of knowlege and discussions that are good for people to see. Good people with great points. Great explanations and lots of enthusiasm. Many spirited discussions.
The shady part is taking something that has been public and hiding it because you aren't happy with the optics. If someone doesn't want to invest because of a forum that has low activity, let them not invest. When the NDA is lifted and alpha happens, there will certainly be an uptick in activity which will be good for people to see as well. Will we only show the forums when the activity is good? By your logic, we will lose pledges if we don't show the forums when they have high activity. In the end, if the forum activity was the deal breaker, they will invest when the activity inevitably rises again.
A better arguement would be for VR to have more interactions on this forum. A more in depth discussion with the community about their monthly video. An AMA that they funnel through here and maybe cycle it between forums and twitter/facebook so each gets some good interaction. They have also been starting to raise awareness of all social medias including the forums with their pre alpha giveaways which will help, but instead of just the automated like my post, make a profile etc etc, have it so they have to post on a specific social media to qualify, (maybe give away 1 per social media instead of just 1, that would also funnel more people here for discussions as well as facebook/twitter.)
My point is hiding stuff is almost never the answer. It makes it feel dirty, shady, a secret that someone is going to find out eventually. It also leads to speculation, and it probably won't be positive. There are already constant posts on facebook about vaporware, "is it going to come out before I am dead", "can I give my pledge away in my will", "2050 here we come" etc. Do we really need to add " did you hear, they are hiding their forums now, it really is vaporware". Of all the snarky comments I have seen on the social media posts, none of them talk about forum activity.
Me: "In no scenario does any of us or the public get a full picture. Nor should we advocate for a full picture. VR needs their privacy. They also need good substantive feedback & someone out there understands my point =)
You know what I meant. Taking away information that was formerly available means you no longer have the full picture that others were privy to. Obviously they don't share everything with us and they have made that clear. And I agree, they need feedback. But while you are thinking of it from one side with good intentions, others will take what you are doing negatively and use it to fuel the already prevalent hater posts. They have been a relatively open book through this whole process(much more open than others), so my feedback is I don't think they need to walk that back because of a slow forum that will likely become active again in the future. Instead they should lean into it and make it more alive instead of hiding it in the attic and feeding it fisheads like Barts "evil" twin.
Mateowanna said:
Someone who works for VR said my thread went off the rails and we should choose topics that have more value. I would love to message them, but the software does not allow it. I implore the team to consider my argument because I am right & whoever closed this thread is just wrong. This is the kind of feedback you guys need to be looking for.
Again, I am right. Pantheon will get more investment if unpledged people aren't able to see these forums that make the game look like a failed project.
Posts that force their opinion on others are a big reason why users stopped engaging on this platform and Discord. Questioning staff and making statements like "Again, I am right." is antagonistic and repels most community members from wanting to reply.
Most of our active chat during this stage of development is over on Discord, and it happens in real time with developer engagement. These forums will pick back up as we progress through development phases, but for now, most topics have been discussed, and it's just easier for our community members to jump into discord and chat in real-time with each other.
For the record, unpledged followers can view the General sections of our forums. When we're able to upgrade the forums, you will see a consolidated and fresh look with a section both on Discord and the forums for free accounts to engage with the community.
But for now, please don't post threads with the mindset of "it's my way or the highway". They're not friendly and open to discussion. They are combative and attract users who want to take up a sword and argue with you. You will also have a much higher chance of being moderated, or worse, if you incite unrest.
At your pledge level, you have the ability to send a private message.
I also encourage everyone to take a moment to re-read the guidelines, so everyone is clear on what we expect from our members.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1595/pantheon-community-guidelines
I tend to use the forums much more than the Discord. This is because Discord happens in real time and it's much harder to go back and follow conversations that have happend throughout the day. If you aren't there and paying attention while things are being actively discussed then you tend to miss out on what was said.
On the forums, you can check in whenever you get the chance and easily follow the conversations you missed. Even if it's been days since the last time you visited.
Discord does have features now that allow servers to create forum like channels where people can make Posts instead of just live chatting. Perhaps VR can consider adding some of those types of channels to our Discord. Might encourage more engagement from some of us who can't be actively attentive to a Discord chat all day long.
Just my thoughts.
Mateowanna said:Again, I am right. Pantheon will get more investment if unpledged people aren't able to see these forums that make the game look like a failed project.
Your conclusion is based on your own perception and what you consider a dead forum. Others might loot at the very large total number of posts. Or look at the large post counts of several regulars. Or perhaps skip that and judge the current state by how positive/ negative most posters seem to be.
Personally, I find threads like this to be more likely to keep me from considering supporting a game, but that's my own subjective perception and personal dislike of negativity.
I get that you're motivated by your desire to see Pantheon get more funding, and I share that goal, but I think it's very unlikely they will actually hide most of the forums, because VR is trying hard to earn and keep trust with being transparent. Perhaps you could help liven up the forums by posting in many of the less active sub forums.
Many of the counter aguments misrepesented the point I was trying to make, were passive aggressive, & I responded in kind. Obviously there was a problem with my communication, & to those I offended, I am sorry. I was very much annoyed by the whole "what you're saying is" & throwing out a bunch of nonsense I didn't say. My point was made. Obviously VR saw it. It's like a twilight zone episode to me to be alone in the argument. This thread should be deleted since it wasn't productive at all. Really fun going back in forth with a couple of you guys. Go Pantheon.