Was thinking a way to bring in new player post launch that might otherwise feel they missed the boat if they were not playing from launch would be to use the Progeny system (and some rewards associated with it) as a way to incentivize established players to start Alts on fresh "Progression" style servers.
They would not be actual Progression Servers like EQ has with faster xp gain etc, just new servers at pre-arranged, heavily advertised dates (perhaps every 6 months to 1 year?) so that new players could jump in with all the excitement of a new world opening up.
Conversely, it would allow current players to make alts in different starting area and explore different early game content while still being able to "twink" them to some degree courtesy of their mains on their original server.
It could be a good way of making sure old servers stay relevant and don't become ghost towns, and at the same time new players would not feel as if they are permemantly on the back foot/left behind by not starting the game on Day One.
Personally I was never invested in the progency system and don't believe I would ever use it. I haven't heard much about it and am hoping they have moved on from it or at least relegate it to after launch. After 9 years in development, and with no signs of alpha, I believe this is one of those systems that can be ignored without compromising the integrity of the game. Just my opinion...
lotuss79 said:Was thinking a way to bring in new player post launch that might otherwise feel they missed the boat if they were not playing from launch would be to use the Progeny system (and some rewards associated with it) as a way to incentivize established players to start Alts on fresh "Progression" style servers.
They would not be actual Progression Servers like EQ has with faster xp gain etc, just new servers at pre-arranged, heavily advertised dates (perhaps every 6 months to 1 year?) so that new players could jump in with all the excitement of a new world opening up.
Conversely, it would allow current players to make alts in different starting area and explore different early game content while still being able to "twink" them to some degree courtesy of their mains on their original server.
It could be a good way of making sure old servers stay relevant and don't become ghost towns, and at the same time new players would not feel as if they are permemantly on the back foot/left behind by not starting the game on Day One.
lotuss79 said:Was thinking a way to bring in new player post launch that might otherwise feel they missed the boat if they were not playing from launch would be to use the Progeny system (and some rewards associated with it) as a way to incentivize established players to start Alts on fresh "Progression" style servers.
They would not be actual Progression Servers like EQ has with faster xp gain etc, just new servers at pre-arranged, heavily advertised dates (perhaps every 6 months to 1 year?) so that new players could jump in with all the excitement of a new world opening up.
Conversely, it would allow current players to make alts in different starting area and explore different early game content while still being able to "twink" them to some degree courtesy of their mains on their original server.
It could be a good way of making sure old servers stay relevant and don't become ghost towns, and at the same time new players would not feel as if they are permemantly on the back foot/left behind by not starting the game on Day One.
i seem to see a lot of holes in this.
seems Encouraging players to make alts on other servers, IF it took off and was used would dwindle the population on the original server.
Twink alts on one server from chars on another server, not sure cross server item swapping is such a good idea.
Chimerical said:Personally I was never invested in the progency system and don't believe I would ever use it. I haven't heard much about it and am hoping they have moved on from it or at least relegate it to after launch. After 9 years in development, and with no signs of alpha, I believe this is one of those systems that can be ignored without compromising the integrity of the game. Just my opinion...
I'm excited about it and still not sure if I will ever use it (will I get a char to max in order to use it?)
I don't believe you have anything to worry about it holding Launch up, as I have never heard it being planed to be in at launch, i actually believe they have stated IF it makes it in it will definitely be post launch.
Timing on Progeny is very much uncertain - much of what they have said over the years was when they expected release to come earlier than is likely to be the case. I agree that after release is the way to bet but one can always hope. I also agree that if it would hold release up it should come later.
I agree with Zorkon but this is all enormously premature. Fresh start servers are something to consider years after launch - right now we have no idea how many servers there will be, how crowded they will be, and whether Pantheon will need to add additional servers or will be doing mergers. In other games I like the idea of fresh start servers but if it takes a year to get to maximum level I will have far less enthusiasm for starting over on a brand new server.
Last I heard, Joppa said that they weren't sure exactly how Progeny would be handled and that it wasn't planned for release. Personally, I'm interested in it, especially if it's how we unlock race/class combos.
Of course it might end up being something entirely different. Imagine if it was a way to go above the level cap. Get to max level, reroll as a Progeny, then you can get to max +1. Once there, use Progeny again and unlock another +1.
vjek said:lotuss79 said:Was thinking a way to bring in new player post launch that might otherwise feel they missed the boat if they were not playing from launch would be to use the Progeny system (and some rewards associated with it) as a way to incentivize established players to start Alts on fresh "Progression" style servers.
They would not be actual Progression Servers like EQ has with faster xp gain etc, just new servers at pre-arranged, heavily advertised dates (perhaps every 6 months to 1 year?) so that new players could jump in with all the excitement of a new world opening up.
Conversely, it would allow current players to make alts in different starting area and explore different early game content while still being able to "twink" them to some degree courtesy of their mains on their original server.
It could be a good way of making sure old servers stay relevant and don't become ghost towns, and at the same time new players would not feel as if they are permemantly on the back foot/left behind by not starting the game on Day One.
What are you proposing as the incentive?
I really don't have any specifics about what benefits the Progeny system should be able to pass on, but its really more of a way to try and encourage rolling on new servers.
The end goal being establishing new servers where large populations can join the game at the same time. Someone mentioned "fresh start" servers, thats really the goal.
For example, who would want to start a game on an established server where everyone is lvl 40-50 and theres no one left to group with. Almost makes it prohibitive for new players to get into the game
Counterfleche said:Imagine if it was a way to go above the level cap. Get to max level, reroll as a Progeny, then you can get to max +1. Once there, use Progeny again and unlock another +1..
Of course anything is possible because we're all just speculating, but I "personally" would hate having to play a character from level one again just to get +1 (or even +5) level cap.
I think a good alternative to raising level cap could be to allow for a type of mentoring system that allowed players to level down and while mentoring lower level players in a leveled down status, that exp went toward raising your level cap.
I personally loved the mentoring down in EQ2. The AA system in EQ2 incentivized mentoring down and helping out the lowbies. Getting out of sync with friends can be a real bummer in MMOs. Darch's idea of mentoring down to bank xp towards additional benefits for your higher-level character sounds pretty sweet to me.
Darch said:Counterfleche said:Imagine if it was a way to go above the level cap. Get to max level, reroll as a Progeny, then you can get to max +1. Once there, use Progeny again and unlock another +1..
Of course anything is possible because we're all just speculating, but I "personally" would hate having to play a character from level one again just to get +1 (or even +5) level cap.
I think a good alternative to raising level cap could be to allow for a type of mentoring system that allowed players to level down and while mentoring lower level players in a leveled down status, that exp went toward raising your level cap.
I'm not a fan of constantly increasing level caps, but I do like Darch's suggestion of requiiring mentoring to get there. I'd really like to see a whole Alternative Advancement using mentoring, if it's not used for level cap increases.
My comment about repeating an entire 1 to max level in order to gain +1 level cap was not a suggestion, but rather a 'maybe they will do his totally unexpected thing instead' comment. I dislike grind-inducing game mechanics and I don't want Progeny to become some defacto requirement. It should be something chosen because it sounds fun.
I like the Progeny system as the concept, but it would have to be done right - otherwise it could become clusterfu...dge. I wonder how are they going to factor things beyond just level of retireing character - like number of abilities upgraded by "extra" (gained as drop etc and not by level) mastery orbs, level of skills and other stuff that takes a lot of time and grinding to achieve... Otherwise the only "proper" way to deal with progeny as a player would be to rush to level cap just to retire and it would be really bad for the game expirience and game itself in the long run.
There are entire threads that have disected this. The major issue's involved are the perk's required for rerolling from a min/max perspective. Also the time allocation and resource requirement's are still unknown with regards to max level.
I also am just waiting for the first guild that has to postpone there entire raid schedual for two months because Bob , the main tank got smashed last night and wanted to reroll his max level tank for some arbitratrary % bonus.
I still think something along the lines of Paladins at cap rerolls into Crusader , Wizard into Necro and so on with new entire skill lines that can only be obtained by this system.
This makes the reroll "worth" the effort, if it is only a minor adjustment on stat's for a player to min / max Paladin > Paladin and rehash the same content , I just did the system is DOA.
The way I think about the progeny system is, what is the goal? My assumption has always been to increase replayability so that new players have others to play with even if we're years into the game's life (which is what OP is also stating if I'm not mistaken). If that's correct, then the goal is not for it to eventually be required. With stats being so powerful in this game, any introduction of bonus stats from such a system would make it feel mandatory for some.
In my experience, there are very few people who don't have alts in games outside of those where you can play every class on one character like in Final Fantasy. We're already incentivized to replay MMOs for a number of reasons. Trying different classes, races, storylines, starter areas, etc. What else incentivizes players then? That feeling of exclusivity, accomplishment, recognition, and showing off their hard work. We constantly see people showing off their rare mounts/gear, displaying hard to get titles, or happily talking about a new achievement they unlocked.
If we add those to a progeny system, that would be reason enough for a number of players to be excited about it (not everyone will be interested in every system a game has).
-Exclusivity: have a token system. You hit level cap on an ogre shaman? You get 1 ogre shaman token. Allows you to make an 1 ogre with any class you want or a 1 shaman with any race.
-Titles: have titles that show off your work. "Second Generation Halfling" for a halfling you created as a progeny to a max level halfling you have or "Fifth Generation Wizard" for the progreny of four other max level wizards (why you'd want to do this, idk, but I'm not judging). Plus have all the titles of the progenitor transfer over so you have things like a gnome with a human exclusive title.
-Achievements: Have things like "Unlocked all classes as Dark Myr" if something like the aforementioned token system is used. Or "Obtained all race exclusive titles on one race" if the titles are copied over.
In my opinion, progression style servers are for people to experience how a game was when it released. This doesn't become relevant until many expansions into a game's lifespan, and therefore doesn't help new player populations when the game is trying to establish itself the first few years.
Lastly, not to discredit everything I just wrote, but I honestly believe that a well designed mentor system will do way more good for the new player grouping experience than any progeny system can.
vjek - true to a large extent but things that aren't measurable can be critical to some people. Giving a progenized character +3 to an attribute is measurable and may or may not make the progenization worthwhile. Allowing a class/race combination that is otherwise impossible is not measurable but some people will *really* want to play that combination. There are *always* some people that want any new or hard to get combination.
Feasty - I agree about mentoring but the two systems are not mutually exclusive. Having either one does not mean that having the other will not help achieve the same game design objectives (as well as other objectives).
Xxar - nothing one can do about irresponsible or selfish guild members other than to have back-ups. Bob the tank could decide to delete the character and reroll as a finger wiggler if drunk enough. To me a MMO I care about is like driving - I don't do it drunk.
dorotea said:vjek - true to a large extent but things that aren't measurable can be critical to some people. Giving a progenized character +3 to an attribute is measurable and may or may not make the progenization worthwhile. Allowing a class/race combination that is otherwise impossible is not measurable but some people will *really* want to play that combination. There are *always* some people that want any new or hard to get combination.
If Progeny gives a plus or one or mutiple stats, then the question for me becomes "what happens if I just progeny the same class (and possible same race) again and again and again and again? How far can I stack the stat increase?"