Discord is the standard for most guilds and players now.
I am glade I no longer have to phone my off tank to discuss a pull straight :p
Vandraad said:I wont group with people who aren't in Discord. Typing is so 1999. You can't type fast enough to get pertinent and critical information to the group in a timely manner.
In my experience, typing is not the problem...it's the other people actually reading (and understanding) what you wrote :)
Benonai said:Anyway, I was thrilled when EQ1 players started embracing online voice chat like Vent and Teamspeak. In raids or complex groups or guilds, it was much easier to communicate to teammates or guildies. And you learned much more about each other since you didnt have to type everything you said. I had much more meaningful friendships with guildies after voice chat than before.
And why are so manhy of you saying it's ok for a FPS where teamwork and timing is so critical? I thought that was what everyone has been saying VR needs to do with our combat? No more face rolling on the keys, make it more challenging, make me pay attention, combos and coordination with other group members? You want that or not? If so, why you saying voice chat is not a boon?
I like discord and will join with guildies or listen if it's a pug. I think the pacing of the games makes a big difference. Modern MMO's are much faster paced than EQ so typing commands and then reading them while pressing a button every second or two and keeping track of mechanics... is unrealistic. Pantheon doesn't seem to be as fast paced so it will be easier to go back to typing to strategize.
At the same time I do feel VR can make group teamwork and coordination a fun challenge that doesn't require voice by using visuals. Having those visuals for CC helps. If they have visuals for combos, that also helps greatly. Something like a mob being on fire when there's a fire combo in effect or going prone if it's in a tripped state that creates another combo, etc.
Would you still greatly benefit from voice chat for the toughest of encounters? Sure. But it will allow for high tactical coordination within groups even without voice in the everyday grouping giving people more of a choice if they participate without affecting their performance.
Sarim said:Vandraad said:I wont group with people who aren't in Discord. Typing is so 1999. You can't type fast enough to get pertinent and critical information to the group in a timely manner.
In my experience, typing is not the problem...it's the other people actually reading (and understanding) what you wrote :)
I peaked mid 140s WPM largely due to EQ combat. Behold the MMO real life skill training! Sadly you are right though. People never read the chat and worse many spam it all the time.
The long macros people type have gone too far. I know a part of it is an RP problem (eigth grader syndrome) but wow do too many people love text walls on macros. Really, your PC says all that 7x in a row every 1.5 seconds? I want to force a limit on all macros or at least macros that use a combat ability to 1-3 words and a %t.
As a player, generally I'm not in voice chat. I love my guildies but often voice conversation can be very immersion-breaking and honestly distracting when I want to focus on the game world and what I'm doing. So my rule is that I'm not in voice chat unless I actually need to be. Tough boss or raid with a lot of mechanics to figure out? Absolutely. Just a normal dungeon expedition or adventure? Not so much.
That said - Discord has more or less completely replaced guild websites, and now that there are some tools to schedule events and such in it, I'm pretty ok with that. So even if I'm not in voice, I still use all the other Discord features to keep up with my guilds and what we have going on.
Nephele - IMO Discord has taken a big bite out of the ubiquity of guild websites but they are very far from completely gone. You are mostly correct, of course, but "more or less completely" may be an overstatement. Many of the older players and longer established guilds still do not like Discord. A shrinking minority I admit.
I agree with your preference for typed chat - people go to a lot of effort to put sound effects and perhaps music in a game and I am one of the people that really likes hearing it - even the 10th or 100th time in an area. Sound effects can help in combat as well.
Obviously voice chat can be faster but on occasion it can be far more confusing and harder to understand when multiple people are talking or there are background distractions. Far less likely in an established and experienced guild group than a PUG but still possible. If I type ADD it is almost as fast and a lot harder to misunderstand though the occasional wit will reply "3+4 = 7". Lengthy descriptions of mechanics are obviously slower when typed though quite doable.
I look at it like this. Would I ever go back to using the cell phone I had in 1999 just for the challenge of it? Certainly not. Talking to people over Discord isn't always perfect or enjoyable, but it beats the heck out of trying to type everything through a clunky interface. With that said, imagine if we had rando proximity voice chat between cars on the highway, and how hateful that could turn out. Discord is good for some purposes, but not for absolutely everything.
Nephele said:As a player, generally I'm not in voice chat. I love my guildies but often voice conversation can be very immersion-breaking and honestly distracting when I want to focus on the game world and what I'm doing. So my rule is that I'm not in voice chat unless I actually need to be. Tough boss or raid with a lot of mechanics to figure out? Absolutely. Just a normal dungeon expedition or adventure? Not so much.
That said - Discord has more or less completely replaced guild websites, and now that there are some tools to schedule events and such in it, I'm pretty ok with that. So even if I'm not in voice, I still use all the other Discord features to keep up with my guilds and what we have going on.
Absolutely, this is me. I want so much out of Terminus, why would I want to play distracted? I want to feel like I'm not in reality. Books, movies and games are how I 'get away'. When I play Pantehon, I want to be away.
The benefits of voice chat far outweigh the disadvantages.
Back in my EQ days, I rolled female characters 95% of the time. I played in 3rd person and enjoyed looking at something easy on the eyes. Since I roleplayed a little, I often avoided dealing with the question of if I was a female in real life. Voice chat was out of the question for me. I totally get people not wanting to use voice chat if they have something they want to hide for whatever reason. No judgement.
Not using voice chat because you had bad experiences in the past, I don’t really understand. If you don’t like someone’s playstyle/communication, you add them to your ignore list. You filter out the “bad” players and increase your pool of “awesome” players. Avoiding pain, bad experiences, is not the best way to interact. Pain is the strongest catalyst for growth.
If you want to roleplay, a simple solution would be for VR to add an option in the Group Finder to toggle Roleplay Voice Chat. In fact, just add these options: No Voice Chat, Roleplay Voice Chat, Voice Chat. About once a month I play DnD online (dndbeyond) with friends and max fun is always when we roleplay our characters.
Benefits of Voice Chat
Disadvantages of Voice Chat [solution]
If you don’t want to use voice chat, don’t use it. If you say that voice chat is bad for Pantheon, you need to have a moment of introspection. You will find that you are overvaluing your desires versus the common good of Pantheon.
NegativeNRG said:The benefits of voice chat far outweigh the disadvantages.
Benefits of Voice Chat
- Ease of communication: in general, for a slow typer, already using complex typing for the game play.
- Build more meaningful friendships.
- Coordination of more complex “combos” between player classes and NPCs.
- Ease of teaching players.
- Ease of group hearing and understanding what you are communicating.
Disadvantages of Voice Chat [solution]
- Annoying people [add them to ignore].
- I want to roleplay [add Roleplay Voice Chat toggle in Group Finder].
- I can’t hide something important to me [none; don’t use voice chat].
- I can’t immerse myself in Pantheon’s world [none; don’t use voice chat].
If you don’t want to use voice chat, don’t use it. If you say that voice chat is bad for Pantheon, you need to have a moment of introspection. You will find that you are overvaluing your desires versus the common good of Pantheon.
The entire conversation is opinion vs opinion but a few of the thoughts above I find questionable. In the literal sense, I agree I can hear people better when they talk than when they type but that shouldn't be a comparison. As for teaching players, it would depend on what you're teaching them.
Consider that we're not all playing the game for the same reasons. Of course you shouldn't agree with everyone. That said, they have their POV for a reason and it's likely that they want a different experience than you.
Finally, I agree that discord isn't bad for any game. Use it or don't use it. It won't make a game worse because it exists.
"Finally, I agree that discord isn't bad for any game. Use it or don't use it. It won't make a game worse because it exists."
This sounds reasonable but it isn't quite so. I don't see how it can be avoided these days but splitting the community into those that love discord and won't group with anyone that isn't on it, those that hate discord (at least the voice elements) and won't group unless most people in the group type so they aren't totally left out, and some people in the middle is not a good thing. I certainly have seen more than one guild destroyed by this dichotomy.
With discord so ubiquitous the likely path to predict may be almost all serious players (in a group-centered game) on discord and anyone too stubborn or with bad hearing left in a "casuals and others" niche.
I prefer typing over voice in most circumstances. When I read text, it feels more immersive and feels more like the character is speaking. When I hear voice chat, I'm hearing the person controlling the character. Also, some dialog (especially jokes) only really works in text.
Fulton said:I'm not big on voice gaming, except as you mention in FPS games, where timing and coordination is crucial.
I'm not against listening in on voice during raids and such for directions, but I prefer not to use it during daily groups (except amongst friends). I've had too many instances where someone is hacking/coughing, chewing, yelling at their kids/mom (Grandma, bring me a grape soda), etc. Not to mention some of the stuff people think is funny, that just isn't ,unless your 11 years old.
If voice is required in a regulalr group I wil probably pass and find another or go off soloing.
That sums up my view on this topic pretty well!
dorotea said:"Finally, I agree that discord isn't bad for any game. Use it or don't use it. It won't make a game worse because it exists."
This sounds reasonable but it isn't quite so. I don't see how it can be avoided these days but splitting the community into those that love discord and won't group with anyone that isn't on it, those that hate discord (at least the voice elements) and won't group unless most people in the group type so they aren't totally left out, and some people in the middle is not a good thing. I certainly have seen more than one guild destroyed by this dichotomy.
With discord so ubiquitous the likely path to predict may be almost all serious players (in a group-centered game) on discord and anyone too stubborn or with bad hearing left in a "casuals and others" niche.
Fulton said:Benonai said:And why are so manhy of you saying it's ok for a FPS where teamwork and timing is so critical? I thought that was what everyone has been saying VR needs to do with our combat? No more face rolling on the keys, make it more challenging, make me pay attention, combos and coordination with other group members? You want that or not? If so, why you saying voice chat is not a boon?
I don't want action combat, twitch response type gameplay. Maybe those of us against "forced"(For lack of a better term) voice chat, aren't the same one asking for those features you mention.
I am not against voice chat, I just prefer not to listen to the mature adults who talk like pre-teens, or the inconsiderate folks who slurp, chew, sneeze/cough into an open mic. Or the family player who has their kids screaming in the background for us all to listen to. I get that sometimes the mic pics up background sounds, but I have encountered way too many that have no live mic etiquette or consideration.
As I said, I fully understand using it in raids and such, it just simplifies coordination and such, but in a daily PUG with strangers, I am more than likely to avoid group that insist on voice chat, or at the least if the voice chat is as I described above, I will inform them I need to excuse myself from the group.
Maybe my view is jaded from so many bad experiences, but it's my experience. Maybe players in PRoTF will surprise me, but history tells me I'm probably more right than wrong. :)
I agree. Too many folks making constant immature jokes that are not funny, the constant use of profanity by some, folks playing music in the background and a host of other things I wish to avoid. I don't even own a microphone, so it would not be possible. I don't raid so I don't have to stress about not getting into those type of groups. If I do decide to raid in Pantheon, it will be with a group of folks who I have already spent a lot of time with and we can communicate without everyone needing to use chat. If not, then I just won't worry about it.
I always play the game as the developers made it. No add-ons, no music other than in game. I want to experience all the sights and sounds that the developers put into the game, and chat breaks that immersion for me.
I take a much more relaxed approach to playing. I only use Discord to keep up with Pantheon, dabble with Midjourney and a few other games. I may increase my use after awhile, but not in any rush to do so.
Just chiming in again ... the use of discord is not an indication of whether or not a player is "casual" or "serious." There might be a correlation between the two, but I'd bet it's not a super strong correlation.
Another note that I'll add from my experience. This is a very common (most common) scenario for me when I play games. I join a group and someone in the group says "yo, we're in discord, here's the link." About half the time I reply with "sorry, I can't join discord tonight but I'll still do my job just fine" and I can say I've never encountered a problem with this. The group is pretty quiet on my end because they're chatting in discord, but the group is still successful. It doesn't take a lot to figure out what they groups plan is, and in the very few instances that I can't just figure it out myself based on how their characters are acting someone is always willing to type up a sentance to catch me up. Something like "we're getting ready to go to another location" is often plenty of information. Once they start moving, I follow (which I would do even if no one typed that out).
The other half of the time I reply with "Sure, I'll join and I can listen, but I can't chat." In those scenarios I can obviously hear what they're talking about in discord and I just reply to them with in-game chat. I've also never encountered a problem with this. As long as they know to expect my responses in chat that's where they look for my responses. It's pretty simple and I've never had anyone complian about it.
Ranarius said: About half the time I reply with "sorry, I can't join discord tonight but I'll still do my job just fine" and I can say I've never encountered a problem with this. The group is pretty quiet on my end because they're chatting in discord, but the group is still successful. It doesn't take a lot to figure out what they groups plan is, and in the very few instances that I can't just figure it out myself based on how their characters are acting someone is always willing to type up a sentance to catch me up. Something like "we're getting ready to go to another location" is often plenty of information. Once they start moving, I follow (which I would do even if no one typed that out).The other half of the time I reply with "Sure, I'll join and I can listen, but I can't chat." In those scenarios I can obviously hear what they're talking about in discord and I just reply to them with in-game chat. I've also never encountered a problem with this. As long as they know to expect my responses in chat that's where they look for my responses. It's pretty simple and I've never had anyone complian about it.
That's a most excellent example of how not all issues need simple binary 'all or nothing' solutions. A very functional compromise. I like it a lot :)
Jothany said:Ranarius said: About half the time I reply with "sorry, I can't join discord tonight but I'll still do my job just fine" and I can say I've never encountered a problem with this. The group is pretty quiet on my end because they're chatting in discord, but the group is still successful. It doesn't take a lot to figure out what they groups plan is, and in the very few instances that I can't just figure it out myself based on how their characters are acting someone is always willing to type up a sentance to catch me up. Something like "we're getting ready to go to another location" is often plenty of information. Once they start moving, I follow (which I would do even if no one typed that out).The other half of the time I reply with "Sure, I'll join and I can listen, but I can't chat." In those scenarios I can obviously hear what they're talking about in discord and I just reply to them with in-game chat. I've also never encountered a problem with this. As long as they know to expect my responses in chat that's where they look for my responses. It's pretty simple and I've never had anyone complian about it.
That's a most excellent example of how not all issues need simple binary 'all or nothing' solutions. A very functional compromise. I like it a lot :)
So his choice to not join discord (or to join discord) still seems binary. That said, binary isn't always simple. "I'm not in voice chat unless I actually need to be" is just fine. It's like saying "I'm not getting into an elevator unless I need to" or "I'm not going in for a work function unless I need to." As far as functional compromise, those who don't wish to hear others talking do what? Speak and not listen? Please, no. :P
Overall, there is also the "stupid" Discord option.
I was in a group this PA session with discord on. I joined in and discussed, made jokes but was a bit confused that nobody seemed to care about what I was saying. OK.. whatever. My jokes may not be very funny, but at least I still could do my job as tank to the best of my abilities...
It is only a couple of hours later that I saw that I was on muted. They never heard anything that I said. "Stupid discord" works. I know now.
3rd party voice chat systems completely remove immersion for me, and the "game" typically turns into a "chore" at the point where 3rd party voice chat becomes a necessity instead of a convenience. I feel this way about most 3rd party resources that become a necessity (like having to reference a 3rd party site for a map or better explanations/descriptions of your character's skills/spells). 3rd party applications should only enhance gaming experience, or inform players beyond what is required to fully enjoy everything a game has to offer.
My greatest pet peeve while in voice chats is having to listen to random people saying or doing things irrelevant to the game content (i.e. trying to be funny, or talking about their day or their failing relationship, or their children crying in the background) and then there's the opposite of that, where the chat regulator is a nazi who declares anyone making a sound is insta-banned. So it goes from extremes of being annoyed, or being afraid to cough, with the happy medium being just a chat room where, if you instead focused your energy on the game instead of being a Chatty-Cathy or watching netflix, maybe voice chat wouldn't be required.
If it turns out that we "have" to use Discord to complete "non-raid" content, I'll likely only be playing with a limited number of people (the ones that aren't annoying) outside of raids. Its really a shame because I'm certain that there are many good players that would otherwise be great adventuring companions.
@Ranarius,
You've been very fortunate to never run into a VOIP Nazi who demands all participants in a group be in voice chat... the ones I've seen have always been the ones with some kind of "perceived" in-game authority but never really had to manage/supervise humans (like players given guild officer titles and have a little bit of responsibility for the first time, combined with their in-game authority, and the power to remove/exclude players from desired/contested content = power trip mentality). I've seen this more often than not - or I have listened to voice chats making fun of the person(s) not in the voice chat - it can be pretty toxic sometimes. You've been very fortunate (or simply unaware) to not encounter it.
To that point, if there were an in-game chat option that took precedence over 3rd party VOIP like Discord, this would reign in some of the arrogance and "otherism" that CAN be associated with using 3rd party applications. OR... even better: if VR could coordinate with Discord to sync chat so that players could chat through PRotF to Discord and vice versa (Playstation just did this with Discord), that would relatively easily resolve the "otherism" inherent with some people wanting to use VOIP and "others" not if it was as simple as being able to mute people through the game interface, or otherwise have an icon in the game voice chat that indicates that you can hear them but have no mic, etc etc. The important part of this would be to have it be seemless to the PRotF player that this is anything other than a normal game feature, and in creating their PRotF account, it automatically creates a Discord account or gives the option to link an already existing account - then the player virtually never has to switch away from PRotF to utilize Discord, and for the most part (other than account syncronization) they are unaware they are using anything else.
Darch said:@Ranarius,
You've been very fortunate (or simply unaware) to not encounter it.
In a scenario where I really really really want to join a certain group or raid, if the raid leader wants everyone on discord I weigh my options. Do I join discord so I can join the raid and have a chance at that special loot? Or do I decline and try again another time? It still comes down to my choice. I'm not forced to join discord, but I might choose to if it's worth it to me that day.
Earlier when I said "I've never had a problem with that" I suppose my definition of problem could use some explanation. Me choosing not to join the group is not a problem by my definition. The problem is "Do I join or not?" The solution is either "No, not today because I don't want to be on discord." or "Yes, I'll join discord so I can join the group."
After years of texting only in EQ, I was definitely leary of voice chat but now that I've used it, it is a must for me. I wouldn't kick someone out of group for not using Dscord but in the long run I'll be grouping with those that prefer VC as well. The speed and ease of communication outway the disadvantages that can come with it. Yes, I've grouped with folks who chat about things I'm not particularly interested in, eat while on mic, or have tons of background noise. Sometimes just a polite request to mute helps or I just don't group with those folks anymore. I really like the idea of an option when finding groups for a RP voice chat. My aim for Pantheon is to put a guild together that enjoys to RP over voice chat.
Tigersin said: So his choice to not join discord (or to join discord) still seems binary.
I wasn't real clear, but my 'non-binary' description was more about referencing the large number of opinions that are "I won't join a group that's using Discord" vs. "I won't join a group that isn't using Discord". As well as the specific case of being willing to listen to the group for necessary info but not have a mic for chatting back. That part is really splitting the difference, IMO.
