Forums » Crafting

Item degredation and repair

    • 5 posts
    January 15, 2015 6:23 PM PST

    Having to repair your equipment is inconvenient and an hassle but it should be in the game.  And after a repair, it may not be as good as when you started.  A lot should depend on the amount of time between repairs.  It should even get to a point where your equipment becomes unrepairable.  And it should all cost money.  There's a reason to have a game economy and every game gets to where that economy is broken because you don't have to spend substantial amounts of money on you needs.  But economy is for another discussion.

    Xumo

    • 44 posts
    January 16, 2015 12:53 AM PST

    My opinion...

    Repairing gear isn't a real challenge it only adds nuisance to the game. 

    Whenever you want to add something that was in WoW but not in EverQuest, it should be a red flag.

    Adding to what Curlok said, I believe there will also be way too much temptation to replace death penalties with some monetary penalty. I like the idea from a standpoint of building more social aspects into the game and promoting a tradeskill, but I just think there are better ways.

    But you can consider me a classic purist.

     

    • Moderator
    • 8628 posts
    January 21, 2015 6:56 PM PST

    Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.

    If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.

    They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!

    It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.

    I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important.

    • 44 posts
    January 21, 2015 8:41 PM PST
    Kilsin said:

    Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.

    If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.

    They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!

    It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.

    I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important.

     

    How about preparation items, spell reagents, food/water, arrows(sorry rangers), bandages, etc. The day item repair breaks up a group will be a sad day for the EQ faithful, imo.

     

    EDIT: Rather see temporary imbued weapon enchants too. Fire enchants in an ice dungeon. etc. 


    This post was edited by Zircon at January 21, 2015 8:54 PM PST
    • Moderator
    • 8628 posts
    January 21, 2015 8:55 PM PST
    Zircon said:
    Kilsin said:

    Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.

    If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.

    They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!

    It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.

    I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important.

     

    How about preparation items, spell reagents, food/water, arrows(sorry rangers), bandages, etc. The day item repair breaks up a group will be a sad day for the EQ faithful, imo.

    I agree all those things should be implemented and have a cost associated with them along with a repair/degradation system, it is very important to have a working economy and getting money to move from bags/pockets to vendors it tough but repair will never break a group up mate.

    Degradation and item repair have multiple ways of being handled and it will never completely ruin your items, just debuff their stats and proficiency but in VG we used to have merchants, repair essence or repair robots that we could spawn by clicking an item in our bags, they were cheap and another great item to keep the money turning over as we would go through a bunch of them raiding and even for general use.

    Crafters could also make them along with them able to be store bought which promoted an even better economy ;)


    But a repair or item degradation system should never break a group up, it may slow it down if someone comes unprepared but you will usually find someone else will pop a merchant or repair essence etc to help them out, which also promotes healthy interactions and meaningful group play.

    • 44 posts
    January 22, 2015 9:48 AM PST

    The inflation problem is evident on P99 so I definitely agree, but I would caution that first impressions in these things count. If people see they have to do item repair and there are exclamation points over NPC's heads, etc. If Pantheon feels modernized immediately but pitched as classic it will lose both markets, IMO.


    This post was edited by Zircon at January 22, 2015 4:18 PM PST
    • 831 posts
    February 10, 2015 7:58 AM PST

    I know I'm late to this thread - and for the sake of full disclosure I will say that I did not thoroughly read every post - but I figured I'd throw my 2 copper in.

     

    I hate gear degradation as part of a death penalty.  Invariably that amounts to someone (or everyone) having to go get repairs.  It's an immersion breaker in that regard.

     

    However - I could see gear degradation being deployed in a more natural (and realistic) way.  Such that using your gear had chances to cause it to degrade - with perhaps having events of different severity granting higher chances for degradation or perhaps more degradation.

     

    What do I mean?

     

    Well, say you have a shield.  Say if you block with your shield, you have X% chance of taking some amount of damage to it when you block a regular attack.  However, perhaps if you block a critical, you have an X times 1.something% chance of degradation occurring.

     

    I would ultimately like to see it be more natural and "fantasy novel" like.  So every now and then, you have to go repair your gear.  Perhaps that's once a week on average for folks who put their gear through heavy use - and once every few weeks for folks who do not run around beating on stuff quite so often.

     

    Same can be extended to crafting gear or whatever - if you craft more, you will have to repair your gear sooner than someone who crafts rarely.

     

    But having it part of a death penalty?  It's an immersion breaker (as said), and, at this point, I think lazy design.  The devs can do better with death penalty - and they can do better with implementing gear degradation.

    • Moderator
    • 8628 posts
    February 10, 2015 5:32 PM PST
    Wandidar said:

    I know I'm late to this thread - and for the sake of full disclosure I will say that I did not thoroughly read every post - but I figured I'd throw my 2 copper in.

     

    I hate gear degradation as part of a death penalty.  Invariably that amounts to someone (or everyone) having to go get repairs.  It's an immersion breaker in that regard.

     

    However - I could see gear degradation being deployed in a more natural (and realistic) way.  Such that using your gear had chances to cause it to degrade - with perhaps having events of different severity granting higher chances for degradation or perhaps more degradation.

     

    What do I mean?

     

    Well, say you have a shield.  Say if you block with your shield, you have X% chance of taking some amount of damage to it when you block a regular attack.  However, perhaps if you block a critical, you have an X times 1.something% chance of degradation occurring.

     

    I would ultimately like to see it be more natural and "fantasy novel" like.  So every now and then, you have to go repair your gear.  Perhaps that's once a week on average for folks who put their gear through heavy use - and once every few weeks for folks who do not run around beating on stuff quite so often.

     

    Same can be extended to crafting gear or whatever - if you craft more, you will have to repair your gear sooner than someone who crafts rarely.

     

    But having it part of a death penalty?  It's an immersion breaker (as said), and, at this point, I think lazy design.  The devs can do better with death penalty - and they can do better with implementing gear degradation.

    What's more natural than walking down into a dungeon, all nice and shiny and reemerging all banged up and in need of cleaning/polishing your armour and repairing your blunt/damaged weapons after battle?

    It plays a vital role in the economy too which is a lot more important than I think people realise. My view is that if you use something or get attacked it gets dirty or damaged and requires cleaning or repairing. I would hate to walk into a dangerous dungeon for hours, killing tons of mobs and a few boss battles to walk out not only with extra loot and money but also just as shiny as I walked in as if I am in god mode, it makes not sense and is more natural to me.

    I understand that a handful of people here don't like repairing for whatever reasons but I think if we ask for challenge and realism in some aspects we need to also follow through with what can be little annoyances like repairing too since it plays a bigger part in the game than most realise. I personally do not mind it at all and would welcome it as it not only stimulates the economy but can also be tied in with Crafting and Npcs, like I mentioned in a previous post.

    It's all about risk vs reward for me, if you take more risks, you get rewarded more often but you also will need to repair your gears and weapons from being used so much, someone who doesn't dungeon crawl as often will not have to repair as often, so it balances itself out.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at March 5, 2015 11:27 AM PST
    • 831 posts
    February 10, 2015 5:37 PM PST

    I think you and I are sort of in line.  I think that it's fine for the gear to get banged up as I use it - ultimately requiring repair.  I just don't like it being implemented as a death penalty.

     

    My version would have chances for my gear to get dinged as I'm using it - at a slow enough rate that I won't go into that dungeon fully repaired and have to leave to get it repaired.  For me every several days would suffice.

    • 295 posts
    February 11, 2015 5:37 AM PST

    Hmmm realistic?  Ok, this big bad spider queen just killed me by driving her forelegs straight through my chest plate and out the other side.  I died of course but I should not have to repair said chestplate after I get my corpse back?  *eyebrow*  It is very easy to justify having to repair armor and gear after a death.  What happens after we kill a mob?  We ruffle through their belongings looking for loot or nice shiny things.  They would do the same to us when they kill us.  They want those shiny things and maybe an arm and a leg for a meal.  In getting those things they would not be very gentle with our gear so it would make sense that everything needs to be repaired. 

    • 224 posts
    February 26, 2015 11:59 AM PST

    At the same time though,  You don't want it to be so bad that it hinders the economy.  Take SWTOR for example,  the repair cost in the beginning of that game were outrageously high.  I think if there are multiple ways to repair the armor and weapons(ie: blacksmith type crafting, npc, or even a magic item) then having to deal with repair wouldn't be so bad.  This would also give a reason to take up crafting, or recruit someone who is a blacksmith into a guild.  Say it costs 100 gold to repair a full set of armor.  A Blacksmith could hang in "I'm going to say bazaar because I wish it would come back" and advertise repairs for tips, or for half of the NPC cost would be.

    • 16 posts
    March 2, 2015 1:42 PM PST

    I also think that magic items should not need to ever be repaired. Mundane items sure but not magical ones. The economy will be big enough if there is not a cash shop. 

     

    Gear found during a raid should not be breakable at all. If you are going to add some kind of durability in a game then make it mean something. A magical weapon with high durability against one of low durability should inflict alot of wear and tear on that weapon. 

    • 224 posts
    March 2, 2015 1:57 PM PST
    Redwolf said:

    I also think that magic items should not need to ever be repaired. Mundane items sure but not magical ones. The economy will be big enough if there is not a cash shop. 

     

    Gear found during a raid should not be breakable at all. If you are going to add some kind of durability in a game then make it mean something. A magical weapon with high durability against one of low durability should inflict alot of wear and tear on that weapon. 

    I think the definition of magical items needs to be addressed then.  I think if your saying all Stat based gear is magical, then that would not work well.  Also I think excluding all Raid gear I feel would not work well at all either.  I think if you said like Epic weapons(EQ Epic) was non damageable, I could agree with you there.

    • 107 posts
    March 5, 2015 11:35 AM PST

    I don't see any problem with excluding epics, that are already no-drop, from decay.  It does make sense to me though that they might need to recharge their clicky effects.

    • 1 posts
    November 15, 2015 11:21 PM PST

    I think I want this game to value preparation. In fact I think I'd take it to the next level. 

    1. I'd like to see different enemy weapons / abilities affect weapons and armor differently

     An enemy with a hammer will do more damage to plate armor than a flexible material like chain or leather.

     An enemy with a sword or spear will wear down leather and plate quicker than cloth.

     An enemy with fire breath my hurt leather and cloth more, but the armor provides better resistance to the heat than plate.

     

    2. They've talked about this game considering the enviroment at many facets.

     Perhaps cloth and leather armor gains weight while it is raining

     Perhaps metals start to seize up when they get cold or wet, hurting a players agility or dexterity.

     Perhaps certain weapons or armors camoflouge in certain areas adding AC bonus' 

     I think if they build a really complex way of how equipment works, the crafting possibilities are endless. Perhaps you can specialize in "Arctic Armors" or "Underwater weaponry" Different trade skills can modify the different pieces of gear, to really make a customized character feel.

    Just as a dumbass example: You get a sword that drops from a mob. You have a wizard imbue it with "Dragon Slaying". Then you have a jeweler fit it with a special diamond making it lighter. You have a leather worker modify the hilt(handle) with genuine saskatchewan sealskin to improve your swing speed. Perhaps a mage can give it an ability like you can right click it for enduring breath, night sight, etc etc. Sort of like jboots or batskull earrings from EQ, or enchanting gear from World of Warcraft, but really give a ton of possibilities that aren't overpowering, but really customizeable. With 1000's of possibilities, it really opens the door to make a robust crafting platform for the game.

    Think i kind of got rambling there, but the point is more crafting, and more customization may be better, especially to the serious gamer.

    • 759 posts
    November 16, 2015 8:59 AM PST

    I am okay with gear repair but think costs should reflect quality of the gear.  This would make sense in a true economy where specialty items tend to cost more to fix.  I do not think "earned" gear should ever break or be useless, that is way to harsh.  But, fixing it after severe abuse or being able to repair on the fly by means of repair specialization is great. (If players can only specialize in a few categories)  This adds another element to the game, along with player class and its unique abilities, that makes players feel "special or needed" in game.

    I like the idea of a player made alchemist potion that provides a X% reduction to gear damage when applied.  This would give another "value" to a player that specializes in alchemy.

    Anyway, I do think it should be a part of the game but have ways to counter the nuisance within the game.

    Pyye

    • 11 posts
    November 25, 2015 10:31 AM PST

    To be honest I strongly agree with "item degration" though I also strongly believe that players should be able to take up a skill that lets the convert certain ores wether bought or mined into the repair materials of equal rank. That not only makes it easier for players to get more connected in their groups but it also helps build friendships between guilds as well. Mining guilds would be able to form and sell their wares (ores and gems) to Blacksmithing guilds and regain profit without the need of selling to a NPC. Then of course the Blacksmithing guilds could use the raw materials that the Mining guild sold to them to create new objects (rings, armour, weapons, and home materials) and sell to either regular guildless players, or Combat focused guilds. This in turn provides for each player not only just guilds. The ability to control the market would of course be derived by the supply and demand that the buying guild or player in which is called for. Of course nothing can completely be repaired up to 100% quality it'll just deteriate untill in is etheral and cannot be repaired at which point it breaks completely. I also believe that for players that are able to keep their item pieces that long should get a small reward from it, not cash or anything, just a bit of expeirence towards that kind of gear to make it easier to use for the next time you use one like it. That's all i can really think of on that. Thank you for reading my post fully if you do. =) 

    • 301 posts
    March 22, 2016 5:43 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Just to flip the coin again and jump in here, while item degradation may be an annoyance, it is a vital part of keeping the economy healthy as it is a money sink that is very important in keeping the money cycling. Yes there are many ways to do this and I believe there should be many ways implemented but I also strongly agree with item degradation and repair costs being implemented to help maintain a healthy economy which will promote spending/earning especially since we may not be able to launch with a crafting, harvesting or tradeskill sphere.

    If adventurers head out and slaughter beasts for a few hours, whether it's overland or down in the depths of a dungeon, they should have to come back and polish their armour, repair dings and dents, sharpen their weapons, wash their bloody clothes and buff their shields.

    They should not come back after all that fighting absolutely sparkling clean and shiny just as they left without any consequences at all!

    It may not be a fun mechanic but it is an important one if we are to maintain a healthy economy.

    I would really like to give this job to crafters too and allow crafters to make a profit from cleaning, polishing and repairing specific types of armour depending on their crafting skills plus their clothing and weapons and have a higher priced NPC option available to do an average/basic job if no crafter is available but the money sink is very important.

     

    Item degradation is great for the possibilities it opens up. It makes you carry an extra set of armor if you can hold it and an extra set of weapons, making you hold on to your old gear a bit longer. It makes outposts with a repair npc a gathering place and important location of note. It gives a little down time 5-10 mins or so depending on how far away you are in long grinds. It helps the economy. It gives crafters something nice if they can do the repairs. It could make useful Summoner gear for those times when you can't repair or don't want to.

    It was great in EQOA. It felt something like you could grind in a group for 2 hours or so before you needed to repair. Generally there were outposts where you could do this not all too far away, maybe 5-10 minuets round trip. Those outposts did have other people hanging around which is always nice to see. In EQOA the tank took the biggest hit on the repair bill since he's the one taking all the hits. What groups did most of the time was give tanks the "stacks", all the loot that was stackable. The tank would sell that off and generally it was right around the cost of repairs, which wasn't cheep! So even though it would be nice to split that loot up with the group most everyone understood the cost of repairs and had no problem with it, stax plz. Melee classes would carry around extra weapons with them but with only 2 items fully damaged to fix it wasn't too expensive to deal with. Casters really didn't have much to repair at all, so long as they didn't get hit.

    As far as crafters go, I hope they will have to do it at an outpost too. You shouldn't be able to repair armor out in the middle of no where. I would be a little worried about making the crafting repairs too good compared to npc repairs or you might see every tank training to be an Armorsmith.

    Since you mention bloody clothes, my question is do you really need to repair your armor if you don't get hit? If you're a Wizard in a group with a good tank and you're killing stuff from range without ever taking a hit should your robe/armor really get "bloody" or take damage? It doesn't seem like it to me. Like I said with EQOA tanks took the most of the damage and groups would give them the loot stacks to pay for it. It could be just part of the role you want to play that you have to accept that being a tank isn't going to be cheap.


    I don't like death causing huge hits to your gear. Either just the normal damage your gear would take from those hits or if it must be % based on death then make it small 1%-5% max. If death causes 10%+ damage thats going to hurt raids the most. Unless there would be repair kits/bots to use on those raids then after 10 deaths everyone would have to go back somewhere to get repairs.

    Speaking of bots/repair kits, please don't.

     

    • 58 posts
    March 23, 2016 7:17 PM PDT

    Another vote for item degradation.  Even though I plan to tank and it might cost tanks more than other classes.  I'm for player made repair kits though.  Doesn't have to be a full repair certain percentages is fine.  I'm not for making 20 min round trip walks just to repair every single time if we're trying to learn encounters.


    This post was edited by leafnin at March 23, 2016 7:17 PM PDT
    • 201 posts
    March 24, 2016 11:07 AM PDT

    leafnin said:

    I'm not for making 20 min round trip walks just to repair every single time if we're trying to learn encounters.

     

    Maybe we could go with a mobile, repair kit and skill that can can be used stricly as a money sink rather than a time sink. I agree that it helps with the economy, much like reagents for spell casting.

    • 254 posts
    March 24, 2016 12:14 PM PDT

    To me, this mechanic has always failed it whatever form it takes in any game I've ever played with it as part of game play.

    It has never been fun, always annoying and is simply just a thinly veiled time/money sink and is more of a PIA than any benefit it may provide

     

    Edit: Just read this from a post from Aradune aka: Brad

    not that this cannot change, but..

    Aradune said:

    Quick comment:  whatever the specific death penalty turns out to be, I can say now that we're not going with an item system where your items wear down and need to be repaired.  

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty/view/page/6

     


    This post was edited by Nuemcy at March 24, 2016 4:32 PM PDT
    • 301 posts
    March 24, 2016 6:03 PM PDT

    ^ That's too bad if true

    • 1718 posts
    March 25, 2016 12:09 PM PDT

    Pantz said:

    ^ That's too bad if true

    I'm curious as to why you think that.  Are you thinking that with item repair/degredation you'll somehow profit off it?  Because that is the only motivator most people secretly harbor "do this so I can profit and become rich" when the chances that many people would seek you out specifically to repair the stuff is, well, thinking quite highly of yourself.  Think about it.  If you're putting in the time to raise the skills to repair armor and weapons, why wouldn't the next guy also do it and not pay your fees+markups for repairs?  Many, and I'd say it would be a safe bet the vast majority, would fix their own stuff thus minimizing their long-term costs while also opening the door to them getting paid to repair.

    Anytime anybody says crafting needs to be an essential component to the game is only ever acting out of self interest.

    • 301 posts
    March 25, 2016 4:37 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I'm curious as to why you think that.  Are you thinking that with item repair/degredation you'll somehow profit off it?  Because that is the only motivator most people secretly harbor "do this so I can profit and become rich" when the chances that many people would seek you out specifically to repair the stuff is, well, thinking quite highly of yourself.  Think about it.  If you're putting in the time to raise the skills to repair armor and weapons, why wouldn't the next guy also do it and not pay your fees+markups for repairs?  Many, and I'd say it would be a safe bet the vast majority, would fix their own stuff thus minimizing their long-term costs while also opening the door to them getting paid to repair.

    Anytime anybody says crafting needs to be an essential component to the game is only ever acting out of self interest.

     

    No, not thinking about profit. I don't have an interest in it as a crafter. I like it because it adds immersion to the game. Like I said before an outpost where you can repair becomes a popular player destination to hang out. It gives you reason to keep an extra set of armor and weapons for long grinds. It gives a soft-forced reason to take a break from long grinds for 5-10 mins every few hours. It's just another social element that everyon will face. Thats why I still hope to see it.

    As far crafting goes, I was thinking about some ideas earlier. Lets say an Armorer, Weaponsmith, and Tailor all could do repairs but only to 100% like normal. Then give them a more permanent path of mastery choice to focus in repairs. They could start out with a 105% bonus to repairs and work up to a 150% bonus to repairs. Since it's a mastrey choice, hopefully they would be giving up something to do this. So hopefully not everyone would auto pick it and hopfully crafting itself takes a while to level up so it's not just a tack on bonus for every tank. I could definitely see players visiting a crafter in a main city to top off their armor for a long trip.

    For repair kits an idea could be the first one patches 50% and the next only 25% and make them about the price of a full repair.

    Anyway I like it and hope they changed their minds about it.


    This post was edited by Pantz at March 25, 2016 4:38 PM PDT
    • 201 posts
    March 25, 2016 6:05 PM PDT

    I like your idea, Pantz. I had a similar one but you articulated it better than I would have.