Darch said:If you want lore immersion from character race selection, make the game race/faction-based PvP - otherwise that (lore immersion) is an absolutely trivial reason for the restrictions. I can appreciate the current race/class matrix, but not because of lore immersion. It doesn't make sense to have a Skar Cleric, or Ogre Wizard, similar to how it use to not make sense NOT having elven clerics or Paladins... but I think they made some sensible and neccessary adjustments from the original matrix (when this post was originally created).
My "personal" changes to the current matrix would include adding:
Ogre: Ranger, Necromancer
Archai: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Dark Myr: Druid, Ranger
Elf: Monk
Gnome: Bard
Halfling: Shaman
Skar: Druid (Ogres can be Druids and Skar can be Rangers, but neither race can be both?!?)
Dwarf: Monk, ShamanBut like I said... I'm good with their current matrix (adding more races to Paladin, Cleric and Ranger was a huge). It would just be nice if every race had more than 30-50% accessibility to jobs when one race has 100% access though.
These "all or nothing" arguments are unconvincing. You don't have to flush immersion down the drain just because you can't implement it in every aspect. Why stop at faction PvP? Make sure your character regularly goes to the bathroom and sleeps 6 hours/game day. You don't even agree with your own point anyways, as your personal matrix greatly adheres to immersive race/class restrictions. I noticed Ogre/Skar Paladin didn't make it on your list. Why is that exactly, other than that it makes zero sense?
RedGang said:Darch said:If you want lore immersion from character race selection, make the game race/faction-based PvP - otherwise that (lore immersion) is an absolutely trivial reason for the restrictions. I can appreciate the current race/class matrix, but not because of lore immersion. It doesn't make sense to have a Skar Cleric, or Ogre Wizard, similar to how it use to not make sense NOT having elven clerics or Paladins... but I think they made some sensible and neccessary adjustments from the original matrix (when this post was originally created).
My "personal" changes to the current matrix would include adding:
Ogre: Ranger, Necromancer
Archai: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Dark Myr: Druid, Ranger
Elf: Monk
Gnome: Bard
Halfling: Shaman
Skar: Druid (Ogres can be Druids and Skar can be Rangers, but neither race can be both?!?)
Dwarf: Monk, ShamanBut like I said... I'm good with their current matrix (adding more races to Paladin, Cleric and Ranger was a huge). It would just be nice if every race had more than 30-50% accessibility to jobs when one race has 100% access though.
These "all or nothing" arguments are unconvincing. You don't have to flush immersion down the drain just because you can't implement it in every aspect. Why stop at faction PvP? Make sure your character regularly goes to the bathroom and sleeps 6 hours/game day. You don't even agree with your own point anyways, as your personal matrix greatly adheres to immersive race/class restrictions. I noticed Ogre/Skar Paladin didn't make it on your list. Why is that exactly, other than that it makes zero sense?
I'm not arguing that there needs to be race/class restrictions. I'm pointing out that it has nothing to do with immersion (unless a segregated world is where a person wishes to exist IRL). Immersion and segregation are literally the antithesis of one another. Job descrimination based on race makes some people think about the fact that they're playing a racist game instead of drawing the player into the world to make them forget that they're playing a game (i.e. immersion). Unless a person actually wishes to live in a world where people are categorized by race, in which case, I could see how that could "immerse" some people into the game world.
If someone says that seeing an Ogre Ranger breaks immersion for them, I would call BS! They're ok with Ogre Warriors and Ogre Druids... but Ogre Rangers is where they draw the line? GTFO...
Regarding your bolded question on my opinion of the matrix: My "Point" literally read that I agree with having a matrix, but I disagree with it having anything to do with increasing immersion. And yes, it IS exactly because some of the other choices make little to sense... but again, it also makes no sense that an Ogre can't be a Ranger. Nothing to do with immersion. It's a fantasy game, with miraculous powers like fireballs working underwater and Enchanters changing shapes - the only limitations are based on the player's race (which further determines which jobs are available). I'm not saying there should be no matrix, I'm just saying that it has 0 to do with increasing immersion and could in fact lessen immersion for some who wanted to see themselves as say a Halfling warrior or Ogre Ranger but can't... and instead just go through the motions of the game (mindlessly grinding) because they can't really "immerse" themselves into their avatar (which is the medium in which players interact with the game world - they don't interact through other player's avatars).
Darch said:I'm not arguing that there needs to be race/class restrictions. I'm pointing out that it has nothing to do with immersion (unless a segregated world is where a person wishes to exist IRL). Immersion and segregation are literally the antithesis of one another. Job descrimination based on race makes some people think about the fact that they're playing a racist game instead of drawing the player into the world to make them forget that they're playing a game (i.e. immersion). Unless a person actually wishes to live in a world where people are categorized by race, in which case, I could see how that could "immerse" some people into the game world.
Oooof....please leave 2023 social justice nonsense out of an unrelated fantasy MMO. There are enough developers ruining games over this.
Darch said:If someone says that seeing an Ogre Ranger breaks immersion for them, I would call BS! They're ok with Ogre Warriors and Ogre Druids... but Ogre Rangers is where they draw the line? GTFO...
Regarding your bolded question on my opinion of the matrix: My "Point" literally read that I agree with having a matrix, but I disagree with it having anything to do with increasing immersion. And yes, it IS exactly because some of the other choices make little to sense... but again, it also makes no sense that an Ogre can't be a Ranger. Nothing to do with immersion. It's a fantasy game, with miraculous powers like fireballs working underwater and Enchanters changing shapes - the only limitations are based on the player's race (which further determines which jobs are available). I'm not saying there should be no matrix, I'm just saying that it has 0 to do with increasing immersion and could in fact lessen immersion for some who wanted to see themselves as say a Halfling warrior or Ogre Ranger but can't... and instead just go through the motions of the game (mindlessly grinding) because they can't really "immerse" themselves into their avatar (which is the medium in which players interact with the game world - they don't interact through other player's avatars).
Your race/class list was perfectly reasonable but you shouldn't be supporting a matrix system at all. Arent you part of the job discrimination "problem" you so valiantly emphasized above?
I'll give an example of why certain race/class combos can kill immersion:
Imagine you are a halfling rogue sneaking into the Skar main city. You know Skar are a brutal savage race, described in lore as "the opposite of good." The city is dark, bloody and cold. You notice two Skar warlords fighting over a haunch of uncooked Elf. Then you turn a corner and are almost blinded by a shining beacon in full golden plate. A holy Skar Paladin skipping about the city without a care in the world. Then you see another one and another. Skar Paladins are everywhere, completely immune to inconvienent things like culture or lore. Suddenly your halfling goes from an overwhelming dread to a rolling of the eyes. He suddenly realizes he's actually in a video game, with developers that don't give a damn about immersion.
RedGang said:Your race/class list was perfectly reasonable but you shouldn't be supporting a matrix system at all. Arent you part of the job discrimination "problem" you so valiantly emphasized above?
I'll give an example of why certain race/class combos can kill immersion:
Imagine you are a halfling rogue sneaking into the Skar main city. You know Skar are a brutal savage race, described in lore as "the opposite of good." The city is dark, bloody and cold. You notice two Skar warlords fighting over a haunch of uncooked Elf. Then you turn a corner and are almost blinded by a shining beacon in full golden plate. A holy Skar Paladin skipping about the city without a care in the world. Then you see another one and another. Skar Paladins are everywhere, completely immune to inconvienent things like culture or lore. Suddenly your halfling goes from an overwhelming dread to a rolling of the eyes. He suddenly realizes he's actually in a video game, with developers that don't give a damn about immersion.
I'm neither "supporting" nor disagreeing with a matrix, I'm simply stating what I would include in my matrix and disagreeing with the people that "believe" that the matrix has anything at all to do with actual game immersion. Immersion comes from interacting with something (like the environment). With the exception of PvP servers (or maybe /corpse drag), players will not be "directly" interacting with (controlling) other player's avatars. A player's class choice has nothing to do with a "normal" player's immersion in a game. I quoted "normal" because there are some people that can't get out of the stereo types or typecasting... like the people that say the new little mermaid is bad because mermaids are supposed to be red heads. THAT is on them... it's an imaginary character!
And the paladin thing?! That is literally all in YOUR "imagination" and has nothing to do with other people's immersive experience provided by the game "environment". (Again, similar to the little mermaid reference). If you RP so hard that seeing a character in yellow armor "blinds" you and you then "imagine" characters "skipping" and then "assume" to think that they don't have a care in the world (even though you would technically have no idea what job that skar had)... I would call that "abnormal" behavior, but I'm not judging. Skar can be warriors in "golden plate"... And as I said, you would have no idea what class they were by simply looking at them (unless of course they were only allowed to be one class that can actually wear plate, then you could correctly stereotype them.
You prove my point that you are confusing actual immersion with your imagination by stating that all it takes for you to break what you believe to be immersion is simply seeing someone in yellow armor... when it is actually entirely in your imagination because that same halfling rogue sneaking through a skar village has a very high probability of seeing a Skar warrior in shiny plate armor.
Add: As I said above... if you want immersion from other player characters, play PvP.... Take your exact same scenario and bet that halfling player gets scared as **** if they turn around to see a bunch of plate wearing skar behind them... skipping as Paladins or not ROFL. THAT is immersion, because you don't think about "the game" and you only think about "surviving"... the only reason you would worry about their class would be to know how to defend/attack - otherwise, I promise, you wouldn't care what class they were.
You literally said you agreed with the matrix in your previous post..... You can endlessly change your narrative face to face because most people have short memories but unfortunately for you, online forums record your comments. Even so, it's increasingly difficult to have a meaningful discussion with such blatant dishonesty.
Pretty safe to say I do not agree with you at all. You assign little value to the integrity of the setting, lore, culture and/or the gaming environment but it's a mistake to assume you are in any way the majority.
RedGang said:You literally said you agreed with the matrix in your previous post..... You can endlessly change your narrative face to face because most people have short memories but unfortunately for you, online forums record your comments. Even so, it's increasingly difficult to have a meaningful discussion with such blatant dishonesty.
Pretty safe to say I do not agree with you at all. You assign little value to the integrity of the setting, lore, culture and/or the gaming environment but it's a mistake to assume you are in any way the majority.
Please quote where (you think that) I said that I "disagree" with the current matrix, and I will point out your lack of reading comprehension.
You two posts ago:
Darch said:Regarding your bolded question on my opinion of the matrix: My "Point" literally read that I agree with having a matrix, but I disagree with it having anything to do with increasing immersion.
Your next post:
Darch said:I'm neither "supporting" nor disagreeing with a matrix
This is a 180 degree turn in the span of 1 post. I'm sure you're tempted to argue agreeing != supporting but now apply that logic to some of your social justice rants and youll quickly realize you don't actually believe that. But even if we grant you that ridiculous premise, one of your quotes is still dishonest.
This is why we cannot give too much credence to the loudest voices.
RedGang said:You two posts ago:
Darch said:Regarding your bolded question on my opinion of the matrix: My "Point" literally read that I agree with having a matrix, but I disagree with it having anything to do with increasing immersion.
Your next post:
Darch said:I'm neither "supporting" nor disagreeing with a matrix
This is a 180 degree turn in the span of 1 post. I'm sure you're tempted to argue agreeing != supporting but now apply that logic to some of your social justice rants and youll quickly realize you don't actually believe that. But even if we grant you that ridiculous premise, one of your quotes is still dishonest.
This is why we cannot give too much credence to the loudest voices.
In neither of those points do I disagree with the "existence" of "A matrix", but I don't support the "neccessity" of "A matrix" either if you read the rest of the statement instead of cherrypicking part of a single statement (that was in response to your mis-quote) to quote. I understand the desire, but I would have a "different" matrix if there was one in place (which there is).
Edit: And to stay on point with the original point of my response in this forum topic, instead of continually trying to create a strawman argument, the race/class matrix has nothing to do with immersion.
Darch said:the race/class matrix has nothing to do with immersion.
Maybe not for you, but for some of us it does. Having evil races play good classes and vice versa does matter, it breaks immersion. You can say that it has nothing to do with it all you want, but you do not get to set other peoples opinions on the matter.
arazons said:
Having evil races play good classes and vice versa does matter, it breaks immersion.
IMO:
From Wikipedia..
EQ2 Release April 2005. " EverQuest II reached 100,000 active accounts within 24 hours of release, which grew to over 300,000 two months later ... "
EQ2 had ARAC (Any Race, Any Class). If you feel that ARAC contributed to its success, and expanded the target audience, then it would be a net positive move for Pantheon to do the same. If you feel that having ~300,000 subscriptions would be ideal for Pantheon, then emulating some of their feature set, including ARAC, may contribute to reaching that milestone.
ARAC permitted deity and faction changes such that races like Ogre could become Paladins, and did so via a challenging in-game quest line.
Also, DnD 3E+ has no such restrictions in the rulesets, except for certain prestige classes, which most DMs would ignore anyway. It works pretty well, there. :)
There is no doubt that you can have a game that is more exclusive and less inclusive. That works, as does the opposite, each with good/bad consequences.
But, if a larger audience is among your goals, allowing Gnome Warriors and Ogre Wizards does no-one any harm, despite it not being the choice you would make personally.
Personally I prefer each race feel "different".
And part of this this class restrictions.
Due to cultural differences certain classes, such as the Skar Paladin mentioned above SHOULD NOT exist.
The "problem" is, of course, which classes to permit, and which to exclude. You can twist anything into any shape if you try hard enough.
I hate this good evil matrix BS mostly because this is in the eyes of beholder. We can have Faith wariors that worship gods that some find as dark. Look at Real world faith groups, governments. All think they are the "Good Guys" in the right justified ect.
I'm used to old school text MUDs and and AD&D, class/race restrictions are what I prefer.
The occasional random character in a book/NPC that breaks the narrative ala Drizzt is one thing, but letting everyone do it makes it ridiculous.
It might work for Elder Scrolls, but for MMOs like this, especially one with a spiritual essence of Everquest 1, I'd say keep the class/restrictions in place.
Doesn't mean they can't make other various unique classes or spinoffs for various races though. Like instead of an Ogre bard, they could create a separate, yet similar, Battle Chanter or War Drummer, for example for the more giantish/monstrous/beastial races.