Forums » Crafting

Stirring up crafting debate

    • 14 posts
    August 10, 2016 12:51 PM PDT

    One of the issues I am starting to see in crafting discussions is the association of rare with raid.  Although they share two letters, that is where I think they should stop at being similar for crafting.

    Rare in my view should equate to luck / effort.

    One of the most satisfying quests in EQ in my view is the Shawl quest.  It requires a huge effort in time, skill and luck to make it happen and get the 7th/8th shawl.  Their is no raid required, a single group can get all the components for the quest over time and it is just a long road requiring dedication.  At no point do you need to get 40 of your closest friends to kill a mob and then all roll / dkp each other to get the single drop.

     

    I am hoping that the luck / effort model is used here and not the rare = raid model.

     

    my thoughts.

     

    Godzilla

    • 110 posts
    August 10, 2016 1:48 PM PDT

    I disagree with the above, if you are crafting some of the best gear in the game then the keys mats should come from the most challenging encounters. Thats not to say as a crafter you can't have the skill and patterns or buy the mats but it shouldn't be a case of getting a lucky drop off some random mob and being able to craft the Awesome Sword of Awesomeness through shear fluke.

    • 1581 posts
    August 19, 2016 10:32 AM PDT

     

    Gastronomy and Feng Shui (or situational baking/brewing)

     

    I wonder at the possibility of expanding the concept of situational concept to other areas.

         One area that has already been mentioned has been situational gear. This will be in game and the general tenant is: if it’s a wintry environment, you will need some kind of gear that protects you from the cold.

         Likewise, there are situational environments: In the twitch streams the blue and red mana; the crippling environment with the crystal and the “universal studios”- logo- like rotating of the glyphs in the area that was impacted.

           In each case the environment impacts the player, and the player can counter the impact of the environment with gear, or correct mana useage.   Maybe he player can also counter the environment in small ways with crafting. I don’t mean potions alone although that would certainly be a part. However I mean a difference between how crafted items counter the environment vs how crafted items impact or change the characters environment.

    To be clear: Potion of flight: Crafted item that impacts the players environment. Drink potion, you fly- avoid dangerous area.

    Edible goo- made from Rat ears, beetle guts and frogs eyes, combined with bog juice- made from squeezed water and algae, when eaten together (or placed in upper inventory/bag slots) counteracts the environment in the following way: normally, as you run through swampy landscape your run speed is affected by a small but noticible amount- like a drag on your feet. However, if you have the crafted foodstuffs, you will not experience this slow down as you run through the swamp.

    If you have a run speed booster spell, you would still be affected by the swamp- but you would be running faster anyways so it would not be that much of a drag but a drag, nonetheless.

    The more complex or higher skilled crafted items, the broader its scope. So let’s say a Dark Myr Paella with a Archon gazpacho would cover all environments in the region.   


    This post was edited by Manouk at August 20, 2016 7:34 AM PDT
    • 39 posts
    August 19, 2016 8:31 PM PDT

    Here are my thoughts :)

    In the spirit of community and socialization.... I would love to see harvesting elements similar to those that were used in VG (where the ingame mechanics provided a benefited by harvestin in a group), with a few new twists added.  I think this concept would fit right in given our Core Tenents.

    For instance... If you harvest alone a normal rare would be very very rare to get.

    If you harvest in a group then your change to pull a rare gets increased with the best chance occuring with a full group... and as a group you would have the small chance for an Ultra rare.. but it would be very very rare.

    If you harvest in a raid... you have a rare chance and the Uber rare with the chances improved by having a full raid (say 12 people?)

    This would promote grouping and socliazation :)

     


    This post was edited by Chantelle at August 19, 2016 8:44 PM PDT
    • 875 posts
    August 20, 2016 8:00 AM PDT

    If crafting (the 'fun' version) is not to implemented immediately - since to do it justice it *does* need its own sphere - then hopefully this means that VR need to be (at least) thinking ahead and prepare the ground ready for it.

    ASSUMPTION: General levelling rate is slow (by design) as lots to do.

    If this is the case, then an 'overview' can be put in place:

    Mobs level 01-10 ... drop 85% crappy items/weapons and a few uncommon mats (bones/teeth/skin)

    Mobs level 11-15 ... drop 65% bit-less-crappy items/weapons and some uncommon mats

    Mobs level 16-20 ... drop 30% still-crappy-ish items/weapons REST is mats

    Mobs level 21-25 ... drop 10% ok items/weapons REST is mats

    Mobs level 26-30 ... drop 05% slighty-better items/weapons REST is mats

    Mobs level 31+    ... all drops apart from v.rare drops are just materials.

    This effectively 'phases in' crafted weapons/armour/items for level 25-30+ as items of choice.

    Stop-gap measure for crafting thus only need to deal with 'gear up to level 20-25'. Hopefully by then, the patch with crafting wil be available. It also means that the majority of the player-base leve 20-30 will still have some/many bits of gear (dropped or crafted) ages ago. If, further, crafting can then slowly replace these items (using the mats found as drops + from nodes) by crafters who have invested time in learning how to extract iron from ore and perhaps make decent steel etc...

    • 515 posts
    August 20, 2016 10:11 PM PDT

    My take is that raids SHOULD drop rare crafting materials.  But it should NOT be the only source.  Raids can be fun.  I used to be a hard core raider.  But once raids turn into a job - I'm out.  This game should not be about RAIDING.

    • 2 posts
    August 22, 2016 2:21 PM PDT

    When it comes to crafting or any mechanic really, the issues are always the same. 

    1. Is it interesting, dynamic, rewarding, or at best, all of the above?

    2. Can it be abused, or is it disruptive to game balance in PvP, PvE, or economy?

    Personally, I find the best way to go about this would be to look at all the major games and comprehensively review them as a group to identify all strengths and weaknesses, then mash all the best system elements together.

    1. Everquest: I played EQ1 a little, but I never did any crafting as I was a bit young when it came out so someone else would have to fill in that information.

    2. Final Fantasy 11: Crafting system was pretty balanced, had some hidden features that took 2 years to be discovered, but also took an insane amount of time and money due to how it skilled up. On the bright side, each craft had at least 1 BiS and high demand item that everyone wanted or needed that only a max lvl crafter could make.

      A. Roughly 90% of crafting materials could be farmed or gathered with 1-3 people, the rest were HNM(or world raid boss) drops and also used to make most of the BiS high demand gear.

      B. No craft was ever guaranteed to succeed or give skill exp which came in increments of 0.1 - 0.4, but the higher your skill compared to the base lvl of the craft reduced the failure rate and increased the rate of a possible HQ craft.

      C. You could only raise 1 craft to maximum of 100, a specific sub craft to 80 and the rest cap at 60. All crafting skills had at least 1 sub craft, up to 4, which you also needed to craft certain items.           

      D. All items had set stats, HQ crafts had a fixed increase and no customization was available.

      E. All crafts had a set recipe and no interaction once executed, you just prayed that it wouldn't shatter and lose some or all materials.

      F. No ability to DE or breakdown crafted items, all items were able to be trade or sold on the AH.

    Pro: Time invested was rewarding and not everyone could lvl every craft, almost all items were able to be farmed solo or with smalls groups, "Raid" mats could be sold on AH if not needed, crafting materials had economical impact, each craft had a way to make profit.

    Con: Items used for skill up tended to flood the market due to the lack of DE/breakdown ability, lack of customization, demand tended to cause high inflation in both high end material and finished/HQ items, the actual process of crafting wasn't interesting OR dynamic.

    3. World of Warcraft:

     A: Could pick 2 primary professions, which also included gathering and everyone could max out all 4 secondary professions.

     B. Skill exp was guaranteed if your current skill lvl was at least 1 lvl below the items lvl and the craft itself couldn't fail.

     C. Stats were set on all items, customization came from enchanting, gems, or augments(other professions), no HQ system.

     D. DE function to breakdown any green(magical) or higher gear, but only available to enchanters. The mats from DE were also only used for enchanting.

    Pro: Skill exp wasn't frustrating to get.

    Con: In the end, the only crafts worth anything were Alchemy (raiding consumables), and the 2 enhancements Enchanting, Jewelcraft since crafted items were always inferior to any raid lvl gear. The crafting system wasn't interesting or dynamic and only 3 were somewhat rewarding. You could play the game without crafting and not really miss out on anything, market was always flooded with crafted items.

     

    I know that I've only posted about 2 game crafting systems, but if we all post about each crafting system in detail and expand upon them and extrapolate the Pro's and Con's then we may be able to mold a good system. Thoughts?

     

    ~Promathia

     


    This post was edited by Promathia at August 22, 2016 2:24 PM PDT
    • 515 posts
    August 22, 2016 5:50 PM PDT

    To be fair, I DO like some raiding requirements for crafting.  I think there should be specific places you are required to go to use a special forge or maybe a magical loom.  I don't thini materials should only drop in raids though.  If you want them to raid for crafting - then make them go along on the raid and use a crafting item in a specific place.

    • 218 posts
    August 22, 2016 8:27 PM PDT

    The one thing I did like about early EQ crafting was its experimental qualities.  By this I mean, that early on there were no recepies known, it mostly had to be discovered by trial and error, yes there were some books you could discover on some vendors to get you started.  But advanced crafters were those with actual knowledge, and not everyone had the same knowlede.  Of course as time went on there were sites dedicated to crafting and you could just look up what skills/mats you would need to make X. 

    But because it was basically unkown, there was the possibilitiy that some item no one had yet discovered might be found.  

    That said I would like to see some crafted materials come out of raid encounters, crafting should be relevant at all levels of play.  At the same time I would like to see some of the most useful, powerful and yet not the most uber of crafted items be available to the general solo player, with the appropriate amount of effort, if all they wish to do is play in the economy.

     

     

    • 38 posts
    August 22, 2016 9:08 PM PDT

    I'd love to see something get added to boss mobs. If one of their drops is Boots of the WindWalker, i'd like to see there be an ultra rare chance of a schematic to drop for another piece to drop to make a possible set.  The Schematic would only be a one time use with the possibility still of failure and the mats would require a lot of work.  But it would be awesome to be one of those crafters that could point to an item and say I am 1 of 4 people to ever be able to make The Helm of the Windalker and have your crafter stamp be on it.

    • 315 posts
    August 23, 2016 5:31 AM PDT

    I liked VG's crafting system for a couple of reasons:

     

    1.  Uniqueness.  Both in the refining and finishing stages you could add whatever stats you wanted to an item based on the powders you had.

     

    2.  Engaging process.  Crafting itself required skill and planning.  Not only did you have to have the materials to craft with, but you had to plan for the complications that would arise and thus have things like water, bandages or such on your table as well.

     

    I very mucy dislike pretty much any from of RNG in crafting.  The last game I played was FFXIV and while I did enjoy the crafting overall, the fact that you could (and ofted did) get an item to 99% and not get HQ was just an irritant to me.  I don't like odds, i like skill.

     

    I also prefer turn-based crafting opposed to the real-time for one reason: lag.  Agian, if I blow a recipe becuase I was ill prepared or had poor/imporoper ingredients so be it, but to blow a recipe becuase of something nobody has control over, does not sit well with me.  Had lag cost me more than a few items in EQ2 which was otherwise a decent crafting system IMHO.

     

    Edited to add:

    On raids dropping crafting mats:

    I love the idea.  As I see it done, raids would drop top-end items not only for adventurers, but for crafters to make the best craftable gear available. I very much favor the intigration of all spheres of the game.  Loved that diplomats could toss levers for crafters and adventurures in VG.


    This post was edited by Aarpoch at August 23, 2016 6:10 AM PDT
    • 28 posts
    August 24, 2016 1:04 PM PDT

    I dearly loved crafting in EQ2 --- had ( and kept up ) 7 crafters maxed out  ---  never got to craft in Vanguard, crafted some in WoW ( thought it was a bit boring and too easy) 

    LOL never figure out crafting the short time I played EQ, crafted some in Rift ( it was fun), hated crafting in LoTR  .... yea am really, really looking forward to seeing how the devs apply crafting in 

    Pantheon -- have high hopes for it --  I'll definitely be one if I find it interesting 

    I'd love a system simliar to EQ2's or Rift's  ---  even if they go to the original EQ2 style and make up make intermediate components ( like the one they got later, but it would be perhaps too easy for some folks)

    one of my fondest early memories of EQ2 were the "harvesting raids" --  they were a hoot