Nephele said:I am going to semi-disagree with oneADseven and Dorotea here. I do not think that positional requirements (telegraphs, etc) are inherently bad - in moderation.
I would rather see combat in Pantheon require focus and attention to ALL aspects, including positioning. Meaning, every player should be forced to pay attention to where they are standing, both from a defensive (avoiding damage) and an offensive (doing damage or using abilities) perspective.
Whether or not the game uses actual ground telegraphs to communicate this is immaterial. But there should be things like frontal cleaves, splash AoEs, line-of-sight abilities, and so on, where you have to MOVE your character to avoid or mitigate them. Likewise, there should be abilities that require you to be behind the target, or flanking it, or even in front of it.
I'm not so sure that we disagree all that much here. I think positioning is incredibly important and is a fundamental aspect of play, particularly with conditional logic. Certain abilities should have positional requirements/modifiers. (See my post here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6884/conditional-logic/view/post_id/139760 ) -- Avoidance should be based on the quadrant that attacks are coming from. Things like frontal cleaves, splash AoE, line of sight abilities ... all of those things are great in my book. That said, I did not enjoy how FFXIV/Wildstar executed these things. I don't like the visual telegraphs on things (the blue/red glow on the ground) and I definitely didn't like how much FFXIV emphasized this particular aspect of play. Positioning should be a factor, yes, and players should pay attention to it ... but we shouldn't see a full raid wipe because one player was standing one inch to the wrong side of a small blue circle on the ground.
FFXIV was lazy with their design in that regard. Playing dance-dance-revolution within prescribed telegraphs is not fun. If you want to damage people or debuff them for getting hit with an attack that's fine but it shouldn't get to the point where every other boss has a fail-condition tied to their dance-dance-revolution style telegraphs. To me, that doesn't really offer many opportunities for counterplay. Instead, it becomes a mini-game of following a linear path to victory. Stand here at this time, run over there at that time, zig-zag walk over there when the boss does X or everybody dies. If you want to use this stuff sparingly? No issue. When it becomes the foundation of "challenge" in the game? Garbage, IMO. From what I saw in those games ... there wasn't much opportunity to "think" about your actions or positioning. As far as timing goes, my thoughts mirror what Dorotea said. Windows of opportunity are great but I shouldn't have to focus 100% of my attention on mechanics that make or break a fight in less than half a second. This puts enormous weight and pressure on those moments while making everything else feel monotonous. When the margin for victory/defeat is standing within a small blue area on the ground, or using your interrupt within a third of a second instead of half a second, the game is way more stressful than fun.
Some of this may seem at odds with what I said on the last page so let me elaborate a bit. When I say I want rapid pattern recognition and little margin for error, I am talking about a range of potential outcomes where a lot of bad things can happen and it's up to me to prioritize. I would much rather weave through a variety of obstacles in a given fight that have little margin for error than being confronted with one or two monumentally impactful mechanics that have none at all. I want resource management, cooldown management, positioning, communication, and reaction to all matter, consistently. If the lion's share of challenge is placed squarely on reacting to telegraphed abilities then 90% of the actions feel like a blur with very little to no meaning. When the most difficult encounters always follow an extremely tight script, where there is only one way to advance, that is the definition of DDR combat in my book. There isn't much room for strategy or tactic and the idea of a comeback is almost unheard of. Finding the sweet spot between fun and stressful is difficult because every player is different but there is a science behind all of this ... and giving players options for how they overcome challenges is extremely important if we want people to achieve a state of flow while playing.
http://jenovachen.com/flowingames/designfig.htm
"Considering the core elements of Flow, most of the system-oriented DDA designs were over focused on one aspect, balancing between challenge and ability. However, they ignored the other important core element, to make players feel a sense of control over the game activity."
Designing game systems where a wide range of players can get into Flow is not difficult:
Another good article on flow:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/166972/cognitive_flow_the_psychology_of_.php
disposalist said:
Also it does link back to the concern of the OP re. difficulty. If you make encounters difficult and you make a large part of the challange be toolbar preparation the upshot must be that a lot of unfamiliar encounters will simply get you killed quite unavoidably. This could be very frustating if the difficulty and death penalty are anything like high enough to make the game exciting most of the time. But if you set the difficulty such that, even with sub-optimal toolbar preparation, you can squeak through an unfamiliar encounter, well, then when you *do* know what the setup should be, the encounter will be too easy.
What you said here really resonated with me. I had never thought of limited actions in terms of balance before. This makes a lot of sense and also makes me worry even more =/
Nubi said:disposalist said:
Also it does link back to the concern of the OP re. difficulty. If you make encounters difficult and you make a large part of the challange be toolbar preparation the upshot must be that a lot of unfamiliar encounters will simply get you killed quite unavoidably. This could be very frustating if the difficulty and death penalty are anything like high enough to make the game exciting most of the time. But if you set the difficulty such that, even with sub-optimal toolbar preparation, you can squeak through an unfamiliar encounter, well, then when you *do* know what the setup should be, the encounter will be too easy.
What you said here really resonated with me. I had never thought of limited actions in terms of balance before. This makes a lot of sense and also makes me worry even more =/
i watched this recent video that might be of interest to you pertaining to difficulty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7f3JZJHSw
las12 should be a boon for pvers. its like a 3 frame combo set instead of a 1 frame combo set(fighting games) as it puts more emphasis on decision making vs execution.
since difficulty is subjective, having methods to give more option on decision making to players is favorable, even with a las12.
for example, turn-based strategy vs real-time strategy:
having more time to think about decisions with simple execution vs having split second decisions with difficult execution.
certain people are going to have easier time in one of these aspects.
everything has a price with balancing difficulty. with that being said: it's better for a game to be too hard than it is to be too easy. it boils down to an individuals philosphy to video games. for me gaming is a learning experience rather than entertainment.
eh w.e to each his own.
Thanks for the link -- I'll watch it soon. While it's at the top of my head though, I will say that "combos" aren't what I'm looking for. If you really wanted to you could lower the APM requirement by increasing GCD and giving people more options -- or even increasing the resource cost of abilities making you use them more sparingly. That would prevent he "combo" nature you're talking about. Granted I would prefer a reasonable GCD but I'd rather have room for situational abilities than a reasonable GCD. I love turn based games but good turn based games always have an incredible number of options and isn't just a twelve pronged decision tree (take DOS:2 for example) I also love fighting games, grand strategy games, action games, sim games, shooting games -- I love pretty much all games.
And in every game I play, I don't want the game to be trivialized by googling a youtube video. In single player games that isn't a problem because I'm only competing against myself and the AI. However in multiplayer I'm not going to just 'choose not to watch a guide' that everyone else has access to.
Edit: This is just a side idea that popped into my head (idk if it deserves it's own topic or not). What if like in DOS:2 there was some sort of capability to increase spell slots-- (maybe with a cap of some number like 15-20?) perhaps at the sacrifice of something else? That way if someone prefers a linear low decision process approach to encounters they can have that and not be penalized or not penalized much?
Edit2: After watching the video (good video btw) I have a couple comments:
1) Not all dungeons/encounters have to be difficult. Just enough of them to keep players who do have MMO experience satisfied and with the apropriate risk vs reward.
2) I'm pretty sure VR's target audience has a fairly substantial base of MMO knowledge.
Nubi said:Thanks for the link -- I'll watch it soon. While it's at the top of my head though, I will say that "combos" aren't what I'm looking for. If you really wanted to you could lower the APM requirement by increasing GCD and giving people more options -- or even increasing the resource cost of abilities making you use them more sparingly. That would prevent he "combo" nature you're talking about. Granted I would prefer a reasonable GCD but I'd rather have room for situational abilities than a reasonable GCD. I love turn based games but good turn based games always have an incredible number of options and isn't just a twelve pronged decision tree (take DOS:2 for example) I also love fighting games, grand strategy games, action games, sim games, shooting games -- I love pretty much all games.
And in every game I play, I don't want the game to be trivialized by googling a youtube video. In single player games that isn't a problem because I'm only competing against myself and the AI. However in multiplayer I'm not going to just 'choose not to watch a guide' that everyone else has access to.
Edit: This is just a side idea that popped into my head (idk if it deserves it's own topic or not). What if like in DOS:2 there was some sort of capability to increase spell slots-- (maybe with a cap of some number like 15-20?) perhaps at the sacrifice of something else? That way if someone prefers a linear low decision process approach to encounters they can have that and not be penalized or not penalized much?
Edit2: After watching the video (good video btw) I have a couple comments:
1) Not all dungeons/encounters have to be difficult. Just enough of them to keep players who do have MMO experience satisfied and with the apropriate risk vs reward.
2) I'm pretty sure VR's target audience has a fairly substantial base of MMO knowledge.
hm we have a slight misunderstanding, but the 'frame combo set or frame data' is equal to the gcd except more finely tuned by each ability(we essentially are in accord by meaning just word interpetation is different). it's if every ability i put on my bar has a cast time, animation lock, a recovery and a cooldown time. minmaxers will definitely understand this and will seek optimal dps rotations. different encounters, if well design, should challenge these types of players in search of the most optimal dps rotation for specific encounters or moments.
as for as videos go and trivality, i think dispositions is suppose to solve this issue, but there is a limit to how much one can scale a controlled challenge. it's just the nature of pve. this also is strange because this very nature is what make pvp alluring and the reason entry to pvp is much higher(there's so much i'd have to learn to even be a decent pvper)
increasing spells slots is a pretty hot topic that have been discussed ad nauseam. i'm biased in wanting more slots, but i can compromise at las12 if design is to be more community orientated, cooperation and teamplay. afterall, individuals can only do so much by themselves. it'll be more interactive for class synergy and all that jazz.
>.> english is difficult for even an english speaker to understand what another english speaker means -_-
I'm not worried... at all. We cannot base live game difficulty from Pre-Alpha footage. Also - I'm expecting the begining of the game (levels 1-20) to be fairly easy (no teleporting, 1-shot, million HP boss fights) to allow players a chance to learn the game and perhaps get hooked before being turned away because of a learning curve that is far too steep for new players.
With that said, comparing PRotF difficulty to WoW classic difficulty is very unfair when you consider that 99% of people that played WoW classic were likely serious veterans of WoW and know every bit of the game's encounters/mechanics like the back of their hand... which would lead to complacency as well as a sense of "ease". Anything people do for a long enough period of time will become easier to them, its just the process of learning. The basic mechanics of playing any game will be picked up easily as long as you are playing it via a medium you know (like keyboard and mouse). Also - a very important factor missing from comparing WoW Classic to PRotF is that WoW classic was a game designed for PvP (Horde vs Alliance). The PvE aspect of WoW classic was there to level players up enough to be able to fight each other with all sorts of different gear. A lot of content after level 30 or so even forced players to interact/pvp and the higher level you got, the more it forced you into conflict until they created the battle grounds. The huge emphasis on PvE came later once the game became a cashcow.
Here is a fun test that will open your eyes to how trivial manipulating a KB&M is to you compared to when you first learned: Load up your favorite game and try to use your mouse with your left hand while simultaneously maneuvering with your arrow keys using your right hand (instead of WASD) and let us know how easy the game is to play. Funny part about that test is that, given enough time you will be able to do it with relative ease. They can't design a game that is only playable by people with the highest of dexterity and 10+ years of MMO experience... and I wouldn't want to "play a game" that difficult/stressful "all the time". If people have to turn down/off their music or lock the door to not be interrupted by their families just to focus on a game, they will get burned out or logging in will become laborious.
Darch said:With that said, comparing PRotF difficulty to WoW classic difficulty is very unfair when you consider that 99% of people that played WoW classic were likely serious veterans of WoW and know every bit of the game's encounters/mechanics like the back of their hand... which would lead to complacency as well as a sense of "ease".
This is EXACTLY what worries me though. I'm worried that after having played Pantheon for some time it will become trivial and easy. I'm not suggesting that they make every fight difficult but I do hope that they make SOME fights that are a challenge (regardless of my knowledge). I hope that the disposition system will partly play into this.
I'm okay with easy content, as long as there is difficult content (that not everyone will be able to clear) as well, and that the difficult content is justly rewarded.
Maybe having something be difficult after having mastered the knowledge is too much to ask for (maybe it can't be done wihtout numbers scaling like M+ in WoW). Maybe it will just end up like every other MMO where the content gets cleared, people learn the fights then quit the game till the next expansion, then maybe come back.
I don't want to quit pantheon 8-9months after launch. I want to spend lots of my free time in terminus for years on end. If after learning all the fights there is no challenge there will be nothing left. To me the advancment of my character's power and knowledge is only important if I have a wall to overcome-- an encounter I can't beat.
When I first started DOS:2 I played on the hardest setting and it was plenty hard. Then once I learned more it became easy-- however by adding mods that randomly give buffs to the mobs I was able to keep that challenge fresh. It is my hope that the dispositon system will be able to do something similar-- where maybe 1/10 times you face a boss it has a perticularily hard disposition of set of buffs.
On a side note, speaking of M+ -- wouldn't it be cool if they had maybe just one dungeon or a couple that every time the dungeon was fully cleared it got harder and also had scaling rewards? That would give something for people like myself who lose sleep over the fear of not having a challenge, something to do inbetween content. Or perhaps it could be a boss encounter that has (lets say a level of 1-10) and that level is selected by the group that gets there and 1 would be easy and 10 would be statistically nearly imposible.
Nubi said:They said low APM not low reaction. I hope I can't just play with one hand behind my back while watching TV. Dodging a hazard is not even a 'modern' mechanic for MMO's it has been around for a VERY long time.
Is there a difference between three adds spawning that your tank needs to pick up or party needs to CC or they will kill your healer instantly and having to dodge a mechanic on the ground?
Will the damage be so low that you don't need to react quickly as a healer to get that 3 second cast time off to drop a big heal on the tank who's getting pummled hard by a boss who suddenly enraged?
All these things require quick THINKING and reaction-- not APM.
I sincerly hope that by low APM they don't mean low input stimuli. Just because the game doesn't require smashing buttons every 1.5 seconds doesn't mean it can't have it's chaotic, difficult and intense moments where multiple things are happening at once and you have to prioritize your thoughts and decision making quickly and correctly.
I’ll admit I enjoy poking fun at the Ever Quest for Nursing care crowd, but I think its more about the target audience, that being those who want the Old School MMO experience, and at least in my experience, that didn't include unrealistic spots on the ground moving around in patterns resembling something from Dance Dance revolution, nor did the Boss run unhindered regardless of CC attempts, Roots ect.
I for one, do not want a Boss fight that requires parkour skills to dodge around the room, nor do I want a Boss with cheesy tactics (50 Billion point Heath bars for example) just to layer difficultly that could otherwise come from ability's that makes sense given who the boss is.
Additionally, The telegraph systems such as with the atmospheric lighting, or splash damage from a giant hammer hitting the ground really should be a perception thing, and less about everyone seeing it.
Darch said:They can't design a game that is only playable by people with the highest of dexterity and 10+ years of MMO experience... and I wouldn't want to "play a game" that difficult/stressful "all the time". If people have to turn down/off their music or lock the door to not be interrupted by their families just to focus on a game, they will get burned out or logging in will become laborious.
this bit is noteworthy. aiming for a particular audience is a narrow minded approach. the thing is the hardcore mmo gamers are older now and the landscape of the gaming community is everchanging and evolving. jobs, careers and family is a priority. hell if i could make decent money moonlighting as a streamer i would, but i'm fat, ugly and uncharismatic XD
to be personable here,
when i was doing wow arenas pretty hardcore(keep in mind i'm decent pvper. they're much more talented and skilled pvpers than me), i'd practice certain situations for hours to shave off execution time by .1 second and to decrease input and margin of error.
this involved practicing with specific keybinds/keystrokes with a pretty hefty action bar of at least 36 keybinds are more.
pride in mastery is a vicious beast.
i guess when i look at las12, it's a luxury to know that everyone will be forced to operate under the same range.
this lowers teh mechanical barrier to entry for pvp significantly, which i would like more players to jump into pvp so i can share the same failures and success stories with.
it's more or less about growing the pvp community for more savages to run amuck so we can learn from each other, be better players and be better people.
I do understand somewhat where you are coming from. I too am older, have more responsabilities and less stime to play and slower reaction speeds. "back in the day" in WoW I was in gladiator range multiple times, now I struggle to push ratings even remotely close because I just don't have the same time and dexterity to devote.
What I don't understand however is wanting to make something easier simply so that I can change the shape of the powerlevel curve. It's that kind of thought process that leads to free epics, 'balaced' classes where classes lose their identity etc.
If I was the worst player in pantheon and could only complete 40% of the content. I would be so happy. I would be happy because there is content to work towards and always a challenge to overcome. I don't want pantheon to go from being a fun game of chess (having lots of options) to a game of tik-tack-toe. I don't want things to be simpler just so that I can be closer in powerlevel to players that are better than me. On the contrary I want players who are better than me to crush me under thier bootheel-- be it PvE or PvP.
One example-- let's take a class who's primary function is DPS (not CC or utility) and lets give that person the same gear and abilities as another person playing the same class. Lets also assume that person A is SIGNIFICANTLY better at making quick rational thought process and perhaps better reaction speed too. It would make me very sad if person A (this is an arbitrary number to make a point) only did 10% more damage than person B--while doing whatever other function that class should be doing for the group dynamic.
There is nothing wrong with not being the best (I certainly won't be) however wanting things to be easier just so that I can feel less bad about being not as quick thinking or skilled as my oponent just doesn't make sense to me.
I just got done playing WoW Clasic and I quit, deleted and gave away 120g in Ironforge.
IMO WoW is easy AF. Glad I got experince it but yeah no thanks. Waiting on p99 Green this Friday.
nope we definitely agree XD
what i'm aiming for is inclusion vs exclusion.
think about it like this:
you and i could probably dungeon crawl easily in an mmo. this same experience is very difficult for someone that has never played an mmo. i assume vr wants to open the doors for new players to join, hence a telegraph system. this is overall healthier for growing a community at the cost of challenging more experienced players. we could compromise and have the end game dungeons and raids without it and have a transition period for new players into the genre.
it's wise to spread my eggs into several baskets(meaning the target audience should have a bit of minmaxing, decision making, action and reaction, community)
187 touch upon this and i think i put in a post somewhere about flow state.
i'll link the video again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zna9-8RGQro
as players, new or experienced, we need a sense of control within our gameplay. an inexperienced player may take about 3-5 seconds to act and react. a casual player would probably be around a second. note this kind of a grey area as it's based on personal observation:
hardcore players will have a reaction time of around .5 second
professional elite players operate around the .2 second mark or faster.
i wouldn't say las12 is making the game easier? uhh i think this is a core part of vr: 'wanting to have meaningful choices, community orientated and class interdependancy'
we could ask, would you prefer to have an mmo with a small niche community or a diverse and growing community?
make a game too hard, few can play it. make it too easy and free epics.
i'm more along the lines of... compromising. we can't have it all XD everything has a price.
Aich said:I just got done playing WoW Clasic and I quit, deleted and gave away 120g in Ironforge.
IMO WoW is easy AF. Glad I got experince it but yeah no thanks. Waiting on p99 Green this Friday.
OMFG! I'll see you online Aich! Didn't even know there was a fresh server! FCK YES!
Nubi said:I do understand somewhat where you are coming from. I too am older, have more responsabilities and less stime to play and slower reaction speeds. "back in the day" in WoW I was in gladiator range multiple times, now I struggle to push ratings even remotely close because I just don't have the same time and dexterity to devote.
What I don't understand however is wanting to make something easier simply so that I can change the shape of the powerlevel curve. It's that kind of thought process that leads to free epics, 'balaced' classes where classes lose their identity etc.
If I was the worst player in pantheon and could only complete 40% of the content. I would be so happy. I would be happy because there is content to work towards and always a challenge to overcome. I don't want pantheon to go from being a fun game of chess (having lots of options) to a game of tik-tack-toe. I don't want things to be simpler just so that I can be closer in powerlevel to players that are better than me. On the contrary I want players who are better than me to crush me under thier bootheel-- be it PvE or PvP.
One example-- let's take a class who's primary function is DPS (not CC or utility) and lets give that person the same gear and abilities as another person playing the same class. Lets also assume that person A is SIGNIFICANTLY better at making quick rational thought process and perhaps better reaction speed too. It would make me very sad if person A (this is an arbitrary number to make a point) only did 10% more damage than person B--while doing whatever other function that class should be doing for the group dynamic.
There is nothing wrong with not being the best (I certainly won't be) however wanting things to be easier just so that I can feel less bad about being not as quick thinking or skilled as my oponent just doesn't make sense to me.
While not completely relevant your post Nubi, you made me think of the little blurbs they had on each classes at the character select screen in EQ, maybe not at vanilla i cant remember now but they indicated things like, a difficult class to play without a group or not for the feint hearted or whatever, i'm making those examples up now, but maybe they can have somthing that indicates the difficulty of the class with regards to your responsibility to the group..
ie: a healer has a little blurb about your role and more importantly what human traits that might be useful , ie: A healer needs to be, Patient, Attentative to the groups needs at all times, quick to cast emergency spells. A tank needs to be forward thinking, constantly alert to surroundings, strong leadership qualities and ready to potentially sacrafice yourself for the group. CC needs to be methodical, able to multi task, good communicator and then dps... well make sure you know where 1 and 0 is on your keyboard (jokes, i love you dps) must be always aware of positioning, threat vs dps and able to take directions and act on them quickly.
Yes the examples above are half assed but you get the idea and i am alt tabing to write this discreetly at work :p. Because at the end of the day the role you choose will drive the difficulty for each individual player. a DPS can potentially have a fairly stress free time out there while in a group compared to a healer/cc/tank. So if Pantheon do (and i hope they do) want to keep the game challenging for all skill levels of players, advice like this going in at character select may give someone an understanding of the human skills they will need to be not just good but great at the role and enjoy the game more with its (presumed) higher level of difficulty
Somewhat we are running up against the limit of what is considered acceptable complexity in MMO combat.
Essentially modern monster AI is still no more advanced than the scripts used by monsters in 25 year old purely text based MUDs. Pathing and location detection needed to be added to go from text to a 3d rendered world but other wise it has always just been (pick target, move to the closest targetable position, activate attack sequence, wait for a special trigger to change attack sequence, if no trigger to change then continue to death).
This kind of AI and cause/effect sequence is very limiting. This limit is also reflected in player abilities. They are almost always simple scripts with very little variation outside of random number generation.
To move on from this we need to add new variables that can effect the outcome of our results and that gets into some really complex state changes that may end up being very processing power intensive. An example would be adding both maximum effect distance ranges, diminished effect ranges and inoperable distance ranges (both too close or too far). Your distance from the target will effect the different properties of the attack but also your vulnerability to reprisal.
A second variable to include would be vector mechanics. In addition to distance, three vectors would exist. Your center to the mobs center, your facing relative to the targets center point and the targets facing to your center point. Different facing angles on the monster would have different defensive properties vs different types. A shield would be a good example of blocking a specific angle range. Even better the ability to strategically move the shield could be a function of dynamic combat. Additionally your relative gimble could have you attacking the legs, arms, torso or head with different relative ranges and special effects based on the ability vs target area mechanics. Some abilities like sweep attacks may actually work best if you start the attack above and to the side of the target.
The final variable that can be added is time. Time is a very tricky variable to capture and tactically use. We already use time a little bit between global and ability cool downs as well as attack speed. I think this can be expanded much further in the form of charging up an ability for increased damage or accuracy. On top of that different action should be able to be enhanced by short term state changes. For example if the tank is able to knock a mob off balance then a well timed backstab from the rogue should to a lot more damage than a normal backstab and a huge amount more damage than a standard stab from behind which avoids the effect of the shields and a certain amount of avoidance defense.
Rather than having dozens of different abilities that all need to be balanced and programed per class and 100s of different mob effects I would simplify combat to a few styles of attack and the differences in weapons. Class abilities add effects and damage multipliers to the different effects of the cells of the dynamic combat table.
Spells will similarly be either weaponized or range driven with only small sub schools like enchantment being untargeted mind effecting. The ability to ignore facing should be calculated into relative power of the abilities.
On top of all of this you can build a ton of abilities and conditional modifiers that modify and respond to these dynamic tables. Combat would then be tuned to require utilizing good choices, well timed synergies and gear checks with a side order of luck.
Kittik said:I remember watching earlier streams of "dev" groups, and they (dev group) would be getting hammered. After a single pull the group would have to rest. Nice.
Recent streams I haven't been seeing that. The most recent one with Cohh looked like any other EQ2 or WoW group I've seen for the past 10 years.
Two or three mobs came, they were able to get two mezzed before anything silly happened and the just slowly take them down. It was a bit of a let down. Maybe they were much higher level than the mobs...I don't recall.
disposalist said:But I'm not a big fan of the very limited toolbar approach shifting much of the tactics to preparation. I don't want an 'action' game and I don't want 5+ toolbars of 10 skills, but 2 toolbars might be better than one. Much of the skill in *any* game should come from meaningful choice. To have much of that choice shifted to before the encounter and then locked when in it just strikes me as frustrating and not as interesting/fun as it could be.
Exactly. Give me 3 hotbars of abilities and let me mess up badly enough that I lose. If I die, at least it would be from bad decisions I made during combat, not from ignorant preparations. I just think it's exceedingly silly to say "Oh you have this ability but you can't always use it."
"Gotta put it on your ability bar with only 9 others to be able to use it."
I'm just hoping if it's level appropriate, if 3 mobs come, by the end of it, a couple people are dead, and everyone is out of power. High power regen (especially out of combat) would be nice, but the use of our abilities needs to be a part of the combat puzzle. We need to calculate if we should use this ability or considering the power costs and the point at which we are in the fight if it's a good time to use this ability or that.
Agree 100%. I fully understand why VR want group members to make tactical decisions before a difficult fight (it makes the whole group thing much more social and interesting), but given that the mobs may have all sorts of tricks up their sleeves, we need plenty of room for quick in-fight adjustments to those tactics. I always speak in favor of harsh death penalties because it forces all players to focus, but I don't like to die as a rule when I take on a mob for the first time. Beating a particularly devious mob by quick, collaborate thinking is very rewarding and must be a thing. As a consequence, we need more than 10 buttons to press, I think.
They could even make that number 15 and it would be a world of difference.
oneADseven said:Nephele said:I am going to semi-disagree with oneADseven and Dorotea here. I do not think that positional requirements (telegraphs, etc) are inherently bad - in moderation.
I would rather see combat in Pantheon require focus and attention to ALL aspects, including positioning. Meaning, every player should be forced to pay attention to where they are standing, both from a defensive (avoiding damage) and an offensive (doing damage or using abilities) perspective.
Whether or not the game uses actual ground telegraphs to communicate this is immaterial. But there should be things like frontal cleaves, splash AoEs, line-of-sight abilities, and so on, where you have to MOVE your character to avoid or mitigate them. Likewise, there should be abilities that require you to be behind the target, or flanking it, or even in front of it.
I'm not so sure that we disagree all that much here. I think positioning is incredibly important and is a fundamental aspect of play, particularly with conditional logic. Certain abilities should have positional requirements/modifiers. (See my post here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6884/conditional-logic/view/post_id/139760 ) -- Avoidance should be based on the quadrant that attacks are coming from. Things like frontal cleaves, splash AoE, line of sight abilities ... all of those things are great in my book. That said, I did not enjoy how FFXIV/Wildstar executed these things. I don't like the visual telegraphs on things (the blue/red glow on the ground) and I definitely didn't like how much FFXIV emphasized this particular aspect of play. Positioning should be a factor, yes, and players should pay attention to it ... but we shouldn't see a full raid wipe because one player was standing one inch to the wrong side of a small blue circle on the ground.
FFXIV was lazy with their design in that regard. Playing dance-dance-revolution within prescribed telegraphs is not fun. If you want to damage people or debuff them for getting hit with an attack that's fine but it shouldn't get to the point where every other boss has a fail-condition tied to their dance-dance-revolution style telegraphs. To me, that doesn't really offer many opportunities for counterplay. Instead, it becomes a mini-game of following a linear path to victory. Stand here at this time, run over there at that time, zig-zag walk over there when the boss does X or everybody dies. If you want to use this stuff sparingly? No issue. When it becomes the foundation of "challenge" in the game? Garbage, IMO. From what I saw in those games ... there wasn't much opportunity to "think" about your actions or positioning. As far as timing goes, my thoughts mirror what Dorotea said. Windows of opportunity are great but I shouldn't have to focus 100% of my attention on mechanics that make or break a fight in less than half a second. This puts enormous weight and pressure on those moments while making everything else feel monotonous. When the margin for victory/defeat is standing within a small blue area on the ground, or using your interrupt within a third of a second instead of half a second, the game is way more stressful than fun.
Some of this may seem at odds with what I said on the last page so let me elaborate a bit. When I say I want rapid pattern recognition and little margin for error, I am talking about a range of potential outcomes where a lot of bad things can happen and it's up to me to prioritize. I would much rather weave through a variety of obstacles in a given fight that have little margin for error than being confronted with one or two monumentally impactful mechanics that have none at all. I want resource management, cooldown management, positioning, communication, and reaction to all matter, consistently. If the lion's share of challenge is placed squarely on reacting to telegraphed abilities then 90% of the actions feel like a blur with very little to no meaning. When the most difficult encounters always follow an extremely tight script, where there is only one way to advance, that is the definition of DDR combat in my book. There isn't much room for strategy or tactic and the idea of a comeback is almost unheard of. Finding the sweet spot between fun and stressful is difficult because every player is different but there is a science behind all of this ... and giving players options for how they overcome challenges is extremely important if we want people to achieve a state of flow while playing.
http://jenovachen.com/flowingames/designfig.htm
"Considering the core elements of Flow, most of the system-oriented DDA designs were over focused on one aspect, balancing between challenge and ability. However, they ignored the other important core element, to make players feel a sense of control over the game activity."
Designing game systems where a wide range of players can get into Flow is not difficult:
- Expand your game's Flow coverage by including a wide spectrum of gameplay with different difficulties and flavors
- Create a Player-oriented Active DDA system to allow different players to play in their own paces
- Embed DDA choices into the core gameplay mechanics and let player make their choices through play
Another good article on flow:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/166972/cognitive_flow_the_psychology_of_.php
THIS.
ARE YOU A MIND READER!?
iVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS STYLE OF GAME PLAY SINCE I LEFT FF11 A LONG TIME AGO!
You said you were concerned that named mobs would be to easy.
Someone linked you like 14 wipes, from people that knew exactly what was going to happen, and just needed to execute.
And you disregarded that.
These are low level dungeons. If you assume that the higher level the mob, the more abilities they may have access to, im not conerned with the difficulty.
Using wow classic as an example is dumb, i think everyone agrees that everquest eas difficult when it launched. It was much less difficult when the first progression server launched. As your knowledge of a game increases, your ability to understand concepts increases as well. This makes the game easier. This is true to mearly every game that doesnt revolve around random chance.
Im not sure how you propose changing that.
Nubi said:Hey everyone!
I want to preface this concern with this: I understand that it is very likely that the people in the streams are likely either over-geared, over-leveled, the dungeon isn't tuned yet or some combination of this. I am more asking this question because especially after playing WoW classic again this is one of the biggest fears that haunt me-- and it haunts me because I really want to love pantheon and play it for decades (yes decades). I am only writing this post to put my fears out so the dev team will hopefully keep this in mind.
With the release of WoW Classic I got to experience first hand some of the things that I look forward to in Pantheon, even if WoW Classic is simply a small taste of what Pantheon will hopefully offer. With all the good that I got to experience (actual player interaction, a real player economy and many other things of that nature), there are also some negative things that I experienced that I hope pantheon will be able to avoid.
Instead of going over all the negatives and positives (I could spend quite a lot of time going over them) I'd like to highlight one thing in perticular-- and that's because it worries me the most especially after watching the streams.
The biggest issue I have with Classic, especially when compared to retail and other more modern mmo's, is the lack of real difficulty. During my journey to max level in classic I basically did no solo quests, I dungeon'd the whole way. While doing the dungeons I was fairly disapointed with a few things. *edit* I would like to clarify that by lack of difficulty I mean with the assumtion that everyone in the group has put in more than the required amount of time and resources in being prepared for the dungeon/encounter/raid and has the appropriate knowledge. I'm specifically referring to application of knowledge and class through reaction and decision making.
1) The biggest cause of wipes was people not being careful-- wipes caused by lack of perfomance almost never happened.
2) If the group was cautious-- every dungeon (and honestly raid) is either moderately difficult or extremely easy, no dungeon was actually challenging given that everyone had good gear and was careful. The only time it gets difficult is when extra adds get pulled or the group bites off more than they can chew.
3) Bosses are easier than trash packs because of reason #1
I guess I probably could have boiled all three of those things into one point but w/e.
How does this relate to Pantheon and it's streams?
While watching the streams, to me as a viewer there seems to be a lot of feigned excitment (like oh this guy hits really hard or something) when in reality the fights look incredibly easy. I mean they put all this effort into CCing mobs and off-tanking but it looks like they are doing it to put on a show. The mobs they face rarely hit hard enough to really matter. As someone who heals in MMOs mostly I'd be downright depressed if the encounters were that easy all in the name of 'slowing things down'.
I worry that from watching this that the dev team will balance encounters with a focus on how well they do in them and that they will not make it difficult enough for players who are more mid-core or hard-core. Especially with the limited abilities you're able to use at a given time.
It would be very nice if one of these streams they would showcase some content that is actually difficult. Perhaps even content that having someone in the group who has no idea what they are doing makes that content impossible.
Does anyone else share this fear? Anyone else worry that the game is being designed with 90% preperation and knowledge and only 10% skill/micro decisions? It is my hope that I will find plenty of challenge even with the adiquate preperation. It is also my hope that there will be content that I will never complete just because it's too difficult. I hope that not everyone will be able to do all the content.
/rant off
While I totally understand your concern, I don't share it much. One of your reasons was "it looked easy". Ok ya it does.
I was watching some youtube a few minutes ago. I was watching a drummer by the name of Dave Lombardo. If you know who he is great, if not let's just say he's reguarded as one of the best drummers that have ever played.
Now WTF does a drummer have to do with Pantheon, ore more precice your concern? In the videos his drumming looked easy. The song started he played it and that was it. No big.
I would suggest the same as the players in the streams, i mean they built the game. I would certianly hope they know how to play it well, making it look easy.
I'm not suggesting your concerns aren't justified as it will be an unknown until we get our hands on it. I'm just (almost) paitiently waiting to do just that...get my hands on it.
Response to Nubi
Aarpoch said: While I totally understand your concern, I don't share it much. One of your reasons was "it looked easy". Ok ya it does.
I was watching some youtube a few minutes ago. I was watching a drummer by the name of Dave Lombardo. If you know who he is great, if not let's just say he's reguarded as one of the best drummers that have ever played.
Now WTF does a drummer have to do with Pantheon, ore more precice your concern? In the videos his drumming looked easy. The song started he played it and that was it. No big.
I would suggest the same as the players in the streams, i mean they built the game. I would certianly hope they know how to play it well, making it look easy.
I'm not suggesting your concerns aren't justified as it will be an unknown until we get our hands on it. I'm just (almost) paitiently waiting to do just that...get my hands on it.
Me: Ive seen a couple of stream where they got wiped and have to increase their level. there were area in the video where they just turn off aggro so they could continue with the stream limit time availble.
We're all waiting to test and give our feedback. I just hope it doesnt turn out to be like FFXIV with every mob having a telegraph path of damage. hell i enjoyed FFXIV when Titan and Ifrit was FIRST introduce (instance summon bosses) it was difficult. I HEARD and read ALL the gripes and complaint and crying UNTIL they lower the difficulty after that it was the standard to cater to the different player base and their learning curve. They came up with an idea to make the boss fight challenging by adding difficulty tiers ( story mode, Hard mode, Extreme) and they did that with all/most Bosses. I got sick of that teir structure i just wanted one set of difficulty level and moved on...it got to the point where an expansion comes out i said to myself.."Well i'll be fighting you 3X, Him 3X, you also 3X"a perfect time sink! it became a chore and job afterward and i lost my Flow...
/rant off
With PRoTF the disposition and npc behaviors system should make the boss difficult to encounter but not difficult that you wont be victorious maybe after a couple of tries and lose some exp but i WELCOME that kind of difficulty the reward for overcoming that undertaking opposition just to move the MSQ forward is rewarding let alone a Notorious Monster(NM) (FF11 Field Boss spawn at certain times) was Extremely rewarding after losing exp, level drop, grind exp, new gear, buy more potions, losing the NM fight and someone else claims it, etc..It was rewarding!
Nubi said:
Does anyone else share this fear? Anyone else worry that the game is being designed with 90% preperation and knowledge and only 10% skill/micro decisions? It is my hope that I will find plenty of challenge even with the adiquate preperation. It is also my hope that there will be content that I will never complete just because it's too difficult. I hope that not everyone will be able to do all the content.
I do aggreed with you on this JUST so that content have longer shelve life.