Tanix said:Cost based factors are not good obstacles. They are repeatedly shown to fail due to the volatility of the game economies out pacing the cost of the games internal economic product. Now some might say that then that cost should be tied to the market, but then keep in mind the market is volatile and does not follow a structred balance of cost increases. This is why player markets become gimmicks where you have to "play the market game" just to keep up as earning money within the games system is quickly outpaced and only gimmicks provide return.
All it takes is one plat dupe and the system goes out of whack, and make no mistake there WILL be plat dupes as there are RMT companies whose main goal is to enter a game and find as many exploits as possible to gain advantage in this. It is not a matter of "if", but when. So... tying any obstacle to money is futile and likely to be constantly imblanced if it is sought.
The best approach is to keep the player economy and adventure portion of the game segregated. Tying them together will wreak havoc. The player should be able to gain everything they need and excel in the world without ever being involved in the player trade markets.
So if balance is sought in ammo, it has to be done in other ways where player trade, RMT, etc.. can no imbalance of invalidate it.
Alot of the issues with mmo economies can be fixed by not having auction houses but rather player owned vendors. By getting away from a centralized auctioneer style economic system it becomes alot more work to actively manipulate economies. Vendors can also be another sink source as they could require wages to actively employ. The more inventory you want to buy and sell the more the vendor could charge in wages. It also creates alot of geographic based trading opportunities, such as major cities and hubs having more competition where smaller towns might have more limited demand and thus higher prices.
As for players not needing to interact with a player based economy, I think that is counterproductive in creating a good mmo experiance. If the desire is to not have any dependancies on outside players, or other such interactions then certainly it is easier to develop a co-op rpg rather than a mmo. Well done player economies are a huge boon in some games, for example EVE online is entirely driven by it's playerbased economy, it drives the game's conflicts and is at it's heart why people play it regardless if they are a crafter, a trader, a pvper, a pve player, or any of its content. One of the things it does right though is not having a centralized economy.
As for ammo becoming more trivial as economies and players progress, thats very realistic. When you get your first car as a teenager paying for gas and insurance was a rather big challenge, you work a part time job after school and a significant amount of those wages went towards your car. But then you grow up get a career and been working for years and are more established. The costs aren't alot different (yeah insurance goes down but gas goes up) but those demands are alot easier to make once you're better established. An adventurer's career shouldn't be all that different. Yeah crafted supplies might get more expensive, but your rewards for adventuring also tend to rise in value. Its the new player that inflation tends to hurt the most, but even then only until they start getting a bit established.
It is worth pointing out previous discussion threads on this topic here, here, and here (external). Some folks might not be actively watching the forums anymore and I would hate for their opinions to be missed. There are probably more threads than this, these are just the ones I remembered immediately.
Here is my suggestion based on where I stand on this topic today:
- Ammo is a modifier, rather than a quantity. In other words, you have to buy and equip "a quiver of arrows" or "a brace of throwing knives", but there's not a limited quantity. Alternatively, there IS a limited quantity, but it's a very big number (like 1000 shots). My reasoning: I find that in MMOs, people fire their ranged abilities potentially dozens of times in combat. There was a practical reason that EQ2's quivers held thousands of arrows.
- Basic ammunition can be purchased from NPC vendors. Better ammunition, especially with special effects like longer range, different damage types, explosions, or etc. is crafted - and only crafted.
- Resource requirements to craft an ammo pack are high, on par with a finished item such as a weapon or piece of armor (because after all, they're infinite or very big stacks).
- Players are encouraged to seek out and use different types of ammunition in different situations. Ammo types should modify both basic ranged attacks as well as the results of ranged abilities.
- Spell components for wizards, summoners, shamans, clerics, and druids should work the same general way as ammunition for physical ranged dps. Seeking out spell components is a part of caster gameplay, in the same way that seeking out ammunition is a part of physical dps gameplay. The difference might be that spell components are prepared by alchemists, whereas arrows/throwing knives/etc are prepared by other classes.
I guess I am in the minority, I am a fan of unlimited ammo. If I am going to have a limited amount of time to play, I don't want to have to pass ona chance to group because I have to go farm materials and craft ammo because I didn't do it before I logged off last time. So far the only ranged class I saw was ranger, and they aren't a full ranged class, they mix ranged with melee. I know everyone thinks that the folks that play this game will be different, but I'm not 100% convinced, I have seen it in the past, WoW and FFXI, if you didn't come with the best ammo available, you were considered weak, gimp whatever and many times kicked from the group. This makes a sort of pay for damage aspect to it, and unless every class has it, rogues have to pay for poison, mages have to pay for spell reagents, that kind of stuff then I don' think it is fair to the rangers. If you want the aspect of having to prepare for groups and all that, just make it like gear, if you are going to a snow region, you need to have you snow gear, have ammo be the same if you are fighting undead, you need your quiver of silver or holy arrows, if you are going to fight ice monsters, be sure to bring the fire one. This would also give another slot for gear drops, quivers that hold unlimitted ammo, the better the quiver, the better damage/magic damage they do. As far as binding arrows and what not, let that be a skill, witha cooldown, where you can put a snare or root on your arrow, this way the devs can control how well folks can kite by adjusting the timers of the debuff and reuse time of the skill.
I would like to throw out that Tanix’s idea about a limited number of arrows per combat has merit but I would focus on the concept of limited use resources per encounter for all classes in addition to mana/energy/stamina/rage or whatever it ends up being called.
4th Edition D&D did not do many things right but one thing they did that I thought was a good idea was breaking abilities into at will, once per encounter and once per day. We are already used to the concept of long refresh time abilities which would be equivalent to daily powers and spamable at will powers. What we are missing is encounter powers.
There is room to give all classes abilities that can only be used a certain number of times without an out of combat rest, regardless of available mana. These abilities can be both powerful and synergy triggering. The more synergy triggering abilities that are a limited use ability then the more tactical combat can become and the more dangerous adds that prolong combat become. Many of the abilities that typically have diminishing returns could be transferred into limited use encounter powers.
These encounter powers could have in combat methods to recharge them and may include a set of powers that draw from the same pool of limited uses. For ammo purposes they could be encounter limited “flaming” or “stunning” arrows rather than wasting inventory space on auto attacks.
Tanix said:Belzavior said:AS for creating systems that forces archers to rest during combat to make arrows while they already have a seperate resource to manage isn't very fun either, nor realistic... The same with casters, there should be mechanics implace to restore mana that aren't dependant on just plopping your butt on the ground and doing nothing. Not only is that not fun gameplay, but any enemy above animal level intelligence should instantly aggro to try to kill off a resting and defenceless caster before they could recoup. I like the description of the wizard for example of having burn style fire spells that dump alot of mana but arcane abilities that help restore it. Other classes can have similar mechanics that allow them to get back mana such as entering the mellee or other similar things. You can keep the resource meaningfull and challenging without forcing the player to stop playing the game for a minute.
It isn't very fun to lose, or to die and recover your corpse, or to fail, yet this is the basis to which obstacles provide. You aren't supposed to like everything in the game, that is not the point so arguments based on subjective establish of what "fun" is , isn't a valid objection due to the fact that what you find fun, what I find fun is entirely based on the individual. Just to give you an understanding, I think these restrictions, medding, having limitations in combat produce decision situations that result in very interesting encounters which often can be very entertaining. So the subjective argument is not very useful here.
As for realism, this is entirely realistic if that is your argument. How many arrows can a quiver hold realistically? You are going to run out, you can not carry truck loads of arrows. Realistically there is a limitation here, so realism is not a valid argument against this idea because it is more realistic that there is a limited amount of ammo during a fight and it is entirely realistic that the Ranger has to go recover their arrows after the fight, or repair/make new ones.
As for resting, that is the entire point. You can not be aware at all times. From the days of pen and paper 'resting" meant exactly that, a situation where you rested and there were chances for an encounter, often of which it could be something as simple as a bear showing up in camp.
The idea that the brave adventures have infinite ammo, don't have to rest and are always on the go in perfect defense is not a progression of gaming, or the RPG systems of old, it is the modern day translation of gaming to appeal to convience of those who don't know anything about games and simply want to have "fun", because gaming isn't fun, being entertained is.
Dieing and the penalties that come with it serve to provide the challenge. Overcoming challenges is rewarding and most players here would agree is fun. In any pen and paper game I've ever played a caster that sits down during combat to recover, would of been killed... it is silly. Stopping during combat to recoupe be it mana or arrows or whatever; while an obstacle, provides no additional challenge, there is no reward or sense of accomplishment, it adds nothing to the game.
Takeing a rest to recover, and top off between fights as long as there is a gameplay elements to can be perfectly acceptable as long as there are steps to make some forms of interaction and not just sitting there. Sharpen those blades up, what whetstone should I use? What arrows would work best here? What components would be more effective right now? What protection effects should I infuse into my armor for the next fight. All things that a rest can encorporate. Sitting on our butts for the next 2 minutes just so a blue mana bars to fill up does not equal challenge. Even pnp games usually fast fowarded that stuff.
I generally like alot of the old school game stuff, but there are stuff about those games that weren't good. Sitting and resting during combat was a stupid aspect of some of those games. There are ways to make resource management very important without the need for taking a player out of a fight, out of the game essentially.
But you are right, we are different people and we all are looking for different things in a game. Some people might find sitting afk during a fight difficult and rewarding. Why stop with arrow limits, while we are at it lets limit how many spells we can cast in a 4 hour window to like what 4 or 5 of a spell level? Thats some good old fashion role playing. Then casters casters can be truly strategic in finding just the right moment to be usefull. "Sorry guys can't help out... I only got 3 magic missiles for the night, gotta make em count. Gonna be on autofollow till we get to the boss." The point here is that the medium matters and allowances need to be made for transitioning from traditional fantasy and pnp to mmo format. Requiring fletching to take place between every fight assumes that a character would have to have the materials on hand anyway to fletch those arrows and thats just as far fetched as having that amount of arrows on him in the first place.
Belzavior said:Tanix said:Belzavior said:AS for creating systems that forces archers to rest during combat to make arrows while they already have a seperate resource to manage isn't very fun either, nor realistic... The same with casters, there should be mechanics implace to restore mana that aren't dependant on just plopping your butt on the ground and doing nothing. Not only is that not fun gameplay, but any enemy above animal level intelligence should instantly aggro to try to kill off a resting and defenceless caster before they could recoup. I like the description of the wizard for example of having burn style fire spells that dump alot of mana but arcane abilities that help restore it. Other classes can have similar mechanics that allow them to get back mana such as entering the mellee or other similar things. You can keep the resource meaningfull and challenging without forcing the player to stop playing the game for a minute.
It isn't very fun to lose, or to die and recover your corpse, or to fail, yet this is the basis to which obstacles provide. You aren't supposed to like everything in the game, that is not the point so arguments based on subjective establish of what "fun" is , isn't a valid objection due to the fact that what you find fun, what I find fun is entirely based on the individual. Just to give you an understanding, I think these restrictions, medding, having limitations in combat produce decision situations that result in very interesting encounters which often can be very entertaining. So the subjective argument is not very useful here.
As for realism, this is entirely realistic if that is your argument. How many arrows can a quiver hold realistically? You are going to run out, you can not carry truck loads of arrows. Realistically there is a limitation here, so realism is not a valid argument against this idea because it is more realistic that there is a limited amount of ammo during a fight and it is entirely realistic that the Ranger has to go recover their arrows after the fight, or repair/make new ones.
As for resting, that is the entire point. You can not be aware at all times. From the days of pen and paper 'resting" meant exactly that, a situation where you rested and there were chances for an encounter, often of which it could be something as simple as a bear showing up in camp.
The idea that the brave adventures have infinite ammo, don't have to rest and are always on the go in perfect defense is not a progression of gaming, or the RPG systems of old, it is the modern day translation of gaming to appeal to convience of those who don't know anything about games and simply want to have "fun", because gaming isn't fun, being entertained is.
But you are right, we are different people and we all are looking for different things in a game. Some people might find sitting afk during a fight difficult and rewarding. Why stop with arrow limits, while we are at it lets limit how many spells we can cast in a 4 hour window to like what 4 or 5 of a spell level? Thats some good old fashion role playing. Then casters casters can be truly strategic in finding just the right moment to be usefull. "Sorry guys can't help out... I only got 3 magic missiles for the night, gotta make em count. Gonna be on autofollow till we get to the boss." The point here is that the medium matters and allowances need to be made for transitioning from traditional fantasy and pnp to mmo format. Requiring fletching to take place between every fight assumes that a character would have to have the materials on hand anyway to fletch those arrows and thats just as far fetched as having that amount of arrows on him in the first place.
Because there is already a limitation on the spells, it is called mana and mana was developed as a limitation in EQ over having the AD&D style of memorizing and losing them as you cast them. The reason was that is was not very practical to implement this, so they went with the mana limitation as it better fits the dynamics of this style of game play. Seeing has having a down time for the range user is similar to this concept, it works well into that dynamic of play.
Also, Pantheon (like EQ) I believe has a limit on how many skills/spells you can have on your bar at the same time, which does limit the amount you can have.
As for fletching during fights, having materials can be required or not. The point is the mechanic in play, that it limits the encounters and does not give the player unlimited means to fight indefinitely which then supports resource management during the encounter. Just like mana restricts how much a caster can CC, do healing, or damage during an encounter, this mechanic would also put a more practical game play limitation (over some monetary one which is easily circumvented).
I mean I understand why you think this is a poor mechanic, as you stated, you don’t even like medding as a mechanic and see downtime as a poor game play balance, so no amount of discussing this issue will find any common ground because you see the entire mechanic of downtime as bad.
It isn't the downtime itself that is desired, that is not what is fun, it is the result of putting limits on play where the player has to be careful in their exploration. Downtime was a concept of EQ and it created an endurance dynamic in play where you had to be careful of your resources or you could run out and wipe. This made the down time an obstacle to which players had to gauge when to med, where to med, and all of the many aspects of play such as pathers, respawn time, etc... became a key dynamic in play which created pressure and urgency in play.
It is the culimination of all those aspects of play that produced the enjoyment in play, the "fun" of succeeding over those obstacles.
Unlimited once obtained, if stronger ranged items exist (throwing boulders) and need some kind of limitations then charges that regenerate over X amount of time.
A toggle for rangers to switch between blunt/piece/slash arrowheads.
Ranged/Arrow damage should depend entirely on the bow equipped. Special attacks like fire/ice/arcane arrows etc should be abilities and not special expendable ammo types.
You are right I do view the idea of downtime for the sake of downtime is bad. In this we probably won't ever agree. To me the downtime, the preperation should be focused between the adventures. The collecting or crafting of components, kits, and ammos and other tools needed for adventure should take place outside of the dungeon run. You are also right in that the concept of mana was used because traditional fantasy concepts do not work well in a video game environement. That is why I view putting low limits on how much ammunition you can carry into a fight is equally silly as trying to limit spells by uses per hour or day or whatever in a video game medium. You seem to want to reel back an archer focused characters so that they are similar to a caster's mana. But they aren't. Rangers have their own resource "momentum" that needs to be actively used and managed, they are supposed to slowly build up, use a big power and start over. Wizards according to the website are supposed to use fire spells to do big damage and use up their mana, then use arcane style spells to build back their mana pool. They aren't at all disimilar in discription. My point is here is that you can make resource expendature important and used to place limits upon a player without takeing the player out of the experiance or out of the game.
If you disagree then you disagree and we can leave it at that.
Screw the economy talk. modifiers, and all that garbage. If I have a Ranger, I want to make my own arrows, because I am a Ranger. As I adventure I am going to pickup skills that make my arrows better. Poison arrows etc,.. I want to make arrows, cause I am Ranger and that's what I do."
The preception system should allow a arrow crafting class the ability to "Observe" something in nature that creates a "ping", that leads to a better arrow head, that does more damage. It should lead to all kinds of arrows.
The Rogue is going to have Presurized Flasks, Flash Bombs, sleeping power and vials of smoke and mirrors. All this stuff should be crafted as part of Playing the Rogue class. I think Rogues have been shallow class in other MMOs. OK.. you sneak and backstab /w poison, really thats it. They need the craftmenship to give the class some content and pizazz. Length of Ropes was a good start but it need more depth.
If you want to create crafting classes to create this stuff, that fine. But I would not exclude ths type Class immersion.
Planning a battle is half the fun. if your up against Orcs with armor, then make sure your equipped with your stronger armor penetrating arrows.
Baffling to me that people argue for far higher burdens for specific classes to be able to simply perform their basic abilities, arrows for rangers and talks of flasks/poisons/etc for rogues to simply be able to use any number of their core kit. Would that also mean they should do the highest DPS in the game, above all their peers? They are spending money just to do that damage after all, others are getting a free pass.
Let's just make all the classes equally tedious with cheap but readily available/lightweight reagents/consumables that you will more or less have plenty of stock of 95% of the time by necessity just so that 5% of the time you can tell you party "Crap, I forgot to get more X. Put the game on hold while I run to pick up some."
I would like to see ammo in the game as it adds to the "realness" of the game, and also plays into the stratagy and preparidness aspects of the game.
With that being said... one of my biggest peves with classic WoW was the ammo and its statck size. You could hold 200 per stack and while this wasn't an issue with warriors and rogues, who wouold use it to pull for the group/themsleves, for hunters it became a pain. For hunters in classic WoW all attacks and abilites consumed ammo so you had to have a 12 slot bag/quiver dedicated to just holding ammo, and the only way to get ammo was to buy it before going out on an adventure. Eventually Blizard upped the ammo stack size to 1000 before removing it all together and implementing unlimited ammo for guns/bows/cross bows.
I would like to see ammo in pantheon come with an EXTREAMLY HIGH compacity (somewhere between 500-1000) per stack. If weight and becomming encumbered are being discussed, then I would like to see ammo come with an EXTREAMLY LOW weight or being weightless all together. While weight also adds to the realness quality of the game and the stratagy/preparidness aspects; in this instance it can do more harm than good. Rangers who are extreamly dependant on high ammo compacity for auto attacks and skill usage shouldn't feel punished by having to dedicate a high amount bag space and X amount of weight compacity inorder to preform their everyday basic class mechanics.
Ammo should be able to be obtained from multiple sorces. Vendors should sell ammo, mobs (depending on the type such as archers) should drop ammo, a single or multiple profession should be able to craft ammo, and finally certain classes should be able to summon ammo (dependant on class).
CLASSES: There are three classes in my opinion that should have the ability to summon ammo. These classes include the Summoner, Ranger and Rogue.
The Summoner: The summoner should have the ability to summon arrows, thowing knives, throwing axes, kuni... etc. These spells should be learned fairly early on at a class vendor.
The Ranger: Rangers should get a spell that allows them to summon arrows. Arrows are the only type of ammo that rangers should be able to summon.
The Rogue: Rogues should get the ability to summon throwing knives/Kuni.
Special Note: Depending how ammo works interms of adding damage to attacks and the different qualities of ammo avaiable, The Rogue and Ranger class should eventually get spells to summon higher quality forms of ammo. These spells should come form: class quests, elusive vendors, boss enemies, rare mobs.... etc.
PROFESSIONS: There are a couple of proessions that should have the ability to make ammo, or retrieve ammo. These professions include Blacksmithing, Woodworking/Leatherworking, and Fishing.
Blacksmithing: As one of the staples of the MMO genere Blacksmiting is one of the most common professions found in multiple MMO's on the market. I doubt that this profession won't be included in Pantheon. As such Blacksmiths should have the ability craft throwing daggers, throwing axes, and kuni.
Woodworking/Leatherworking: The Woodworking profession generally crafts: Staves, Bows, Crossbows, Arrows, Blacksmithing compents, and Furnature for player housing. In some modernday MMOs the aspects of Woodworking are usually combined into other professions. Bows and crossbows are lumped in with Leatherworking; Staves are usually lumped in with Enchanting; and arrow making usually gets tossed in with blacksmithing. Personally I would like to see a system where Arrows, Bows, and Crossbows are tied into Leatherworking, Staves are linked to the enchanting Profession, and Blacksmithing compoents remain in the blacksmithing profession.
Fishing: (Yep fishing). It would be nice to see player have the ability to eventually fish up things besides living creatures for cooking. It would be nice to see fishers be able to fish up arrows, abandon crates, lock boxes, primal elements... etc. This system could be introduced after launch in a future expansion.
Mobs: Mobs should drop arrows depening on what they are. Archers, Rangers, Guards, should all have a chance to drop arrows. It would be cool to see Animals drop ammo if they have been damaged by a ranged weapon as well. Certain Bosses could have the chance to drop special types of ammo.
I don't always feel like I should post about things that aren't directly relevant to me, but a topic like this has a lot of other branch effects, too.
I, for one, am a component of consumable ammo (with a quiver that can hold 500-1000 arrows) and also spell reagents.
The high number of arrows in the quiver wold make it not as much of a trouble during an adventure, but you'd need to stock up between sessions. And perhaps some certain skills required a specific type of arrow. It could be a light money sink. I don't think it should be a great money sink, but I'm okay with it being a slight one.
There is no perfect money sink; each money sink will effect certain players more than others. Example: crafting money sinks only effect crafters and high-end food consumables only really effect raiders. It's okay if ammo only effects Rangers. We don't want classes to be homogenous. We want them to be different and unique, with different time and money sinks and different capabilities.
I am as stated previously a proponent for an ammo system included along with components and other things as a means to add to gameplay. I'm not a big proponent for summoned ammo and other goods (like food) however; especially if there is no spell component use. Then it just trivializes the whole aspect of needing to be prepared. If there is a spell component system I don't think it's as bad because it's just transfering one resource into another.
Tanix said:Because there is already a limitation on the spells, it is called mana and mana was developed as a limitation in EQ over having the AD&D style of memorizing and losing them as you cast them. The reason was that is was not very practical to implement this, so they went with the mana limitation as it better fits the dynamics of this style of game play. Seeing has having a down time for the range user is similar to this concept, it works well into that dynamic of play.
I would be willing to bet that rangers will have a resource bar just like all other classes. That is their equivalent to mana, not having to carry around hundreds of arrows. That's just a financial and space burden on the ranger, and potentially severely limiting in how much they can adventure out in the world at any given time (while other classes do not have to worry about such a thing).
I feel like you misrepresent other classes by saying rangers will be the only class being subject to the ammo slot embargo. I know that rangers often are the most affected by these things, and i know classic mmo rogues and monks and other DPS classes, as well as warriors that like to use range pulling weapons, will be interested in how ammo and range items work. I think most people will come to the concensus that there should not be an endless quiver option as this is a gamebreaking mechanic. We might as well just have all skills work with range items and remove the ammo slot and just use it as a stat modifier equipment slot.
No..... we need ammo. If you cant find ammo for your range attack skill you need to get good. Buy it, summon it, craft it, but dont just loot 1 item and endless quiver it ----- i keel you!
kreed99 said:I think most people will come to the concensus that there should not be an endless quiver option as this is a gamebreaking mechanic.
I think this is way overstating things. I can't think of a single MMO where archer/ranger/hunter/however-you-want-to-call-it having technically unlimited ammo broke the game. They already have a resource (MP/TP, energy, focus, mana, whatever other MMOs have decided to give them).
As for the sentence following, I personally think that using quivers only as a modification of stats or effects is the way to go.
Tigersin said:Crafted and purchased. Players selling ammo is one of my fav features from the old days. Fletchers <3
This.
My first MMO business trade started as buying arrows from another player in Asheron's Call about 20 years ago. Within the year I was making and selling them to other players. I think the way ammo worked in AC was great and had a lot of similarity to what Pantheon is aiming to do. You went through a number of steps during leveling and each step involved greater damage at greater monetary cost for the ammo.
Later steps involved auxillary crafting skills that would outsource tidily to several Pantheon crafters. You could only equip 100-200 arrows at one time, but you could equip more any time. You could equip in battle, but you took a hit or two of damage while doing it You couldn't carry very many bundles due to burden, but could carry a lot of fletching supplies for little burden. But could only do fletching when out of combat entirely, between battles.
So what if this affects a ranger only, they are a ranged ammo class, so naturally it wil have an effect on them. I would imagine such a focus would have an effect not on the basis of a class, but on the concept of that ability (ie ranged projectiles).
Honestly, it is disappointing to see people fall into the same stereotypes of wanting every class to be equally balanced to each other.
Class vs Class balance is irrelevant, it is a suckers bet for envy based social constructs.
Class vs environment is all that matters. Balance the class to the environment and it doesn't matter if Class A is balanced to Class B. If a player wants a certain ability or function another class has, then play that class.
If you chase socialized complaints on balance, then you will end up with extreme imbalances in the game play. Players could give a crap about balance, they want their own specialized version of "balance". Ignore them, balance to class vs environment and they can go play WoW if they love complaining about tit for tat balance. It is death to cRPG design to cater to this insanity.
I only have one question for the DEVs . I playede a ranger for a few years in EQ . I always wondered why when i looted a corpse after i had took many hours crafting arrows for most mobs . I never looted a single one from a corpse i just put 10 to 30 or so holes in.../smiles
Just wondering will we get back a few in PANTHEON being many other classes have little to no loss and lose no time gearing up for the next hunt .Put in a few spells check to see if they have a good pillow all set ...Hah /smiles
Just a question
Till next time Take care of each other and be safe /waves bye o/