Forums » The Bard

Should bards do damage?

    • 337 posts
    January 9, 2019 11:16 PM PST

    Singing songs and playing instruments is something that happens in an area of effect or within a certain range.

    So for me, bards would hardly have any single target abilities within the lyrical or instrumental range.

    Songs and other music is hardly damaging, unless it's played extremly loud. So, I'll grant them that one type. To me, it can boost 'moral' and abilities of others or debuff foes in similar fashion.

    With this type of damage, possibly being mental damage, should Pantheon open up this damage type or not at all?

    Buffs influencing the group, is something again affecting all within range. Should bards be able to buff a single target? How would you explain that? 

    Debuffs have the same issue. One sing or play a demoralizing tune, but it would impact all mobs within range (even beyond the linked mobs in that group).

    I could see how a charm or lullaby could impact a single foe, but still.

     

    If single damage is hardly possible using this style of abilities. Perhaps bards would have other tools/means to damage foes. Such as a ranged weapon or melee weapons. 

    Not everyone is behind the idea of bards doing melee damage. For me, that does provide a logical way for a bard to actually damage a target.

    What are you thoughts about this? 

    How would you explain single target music or damage by song? (I'm not talking about debuffs, but actual damage)

    • 222 posts
    January 9, 2019 11:58 PM PST

    Class fantasy doesn't always equal real life applications (as far as single target). I think the Bard, from a damage standpoint, should be probably be tank level dps. It really depends how much utility they add to the group (and themselves) for overall damage. You are looking at the balance of bard vs enchanter - and the enchanter will have charm, so the bard MUST be competitive to the enchanter + pet.

    • 152 posts
    January 10, 2019 12:53 AM PST

    I see your point, and as mentioned by Fragile, its too 'realistic'.

    As your suggestions, i believe, would render a bard class useless. Not to mention to implement this would mean everything about the bard class is based on range. Music, as you mentioned, can be heard over great distances. So next to 'jiggling' songs, you would also need to control a decibel meter?

    Also, in terms of reality, you would have to be smacking your drum or flute, while playing it, against an enemy to do damage.

     

    In terms of fantasy, which this game should be based on, everything is magical in one way or another.

    Who's to say a bard doesn't work like a magician (or enchanter) and focusses his mental thoughts to create music telepathically only to be heard by those he intends it for.

    This would free up his hands to wield a weapon. Ofcourse this would require a significant amount of intellect, but in the realm of fantasy this is not unheard off.

    His weapons or gear could than be enchanted to help him with this way of magic to increase his effectiveness.

     

    So back to topic. I think a bard is a support class which should do moderate damage, somewhere above a tank.

    But well below a pure damage class. so if a tank does 100dps, a dps does 1000dps, a bard should hang around 250. As the bards buffs should push the allround benefit with 10 - 20%.

    • 337 posts
    January 12, 2019 12:48 AM PST

    I understand, we're in a fantasy game so not everything has to be realistic. It could however be explained using lore or general magical influences. So I don't disagree with the reply you're making.

    The reason I posted this is because I noticed that people do not always favour a bard doing any kind of damage at all.

    Some would rather see bards as a utility  class that can do crowd control, buff and debuff. Others would add ranged damage only to the bards.

    Hence my overall question to everyone. What do you prefer or see happening in Pantheon and why?

    If we're working with buffs that need to be played in sequence to each other and will have different outcomes in combination with buffs of other classes, the bard might already have their hands full.

    This in combination with timers running out and different mobs requiring different songs.

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at January 12, 2019 12:49 AM PST
    • 152 posts
    January 15, 2019 3:38 AM PST

    If it is purely for a damage question than no . . . i would see them more as utility than as dps. But from a bard's point of view i geuss it would get boring only playing songs. But the same i geuss could be said for clerics, sit med heal. So in a way i think they should be similar. Have the ability to do some damage, but primarily focus on utility. Or give them a song to toggle like a stance or something of the sorts. where they can switch their focus from utility to dps, one costing the other. To atleast offer some flexbility incase you have 2 bards in 1 group.

    With the last bit i mean that you can choose between 2 or 3 stances, primary: 90% songs 10% damage, secondary: 60% songs 40% damage, tertiary: 40% songs, 60% damage.


    This post was edited by decarsul at January 15, 2019 3:55 AM PST
    • 732 posts
    January 15, 2019 7:15 AM PST

    I have always been okay with doing little / no damage as long as we make the group more productive. If the rogue in my group tops the raid DPS, or the tank survives the big bad boss, or the healers feel they have more breathing room...I have done my job. Make your group look good, while looking good.

    • 687 posts
    January 15, 2019 1:17 PM PST

    In a world of "magic" who's to say that words and sounds can't cause psychic trauma, demoralizing people to the point of inflicting pain on themselves, or driving an opponent to the point of insanity or convincing someone to hurt their allies... To further play devil's advocate, how can you say that music could heal physical wounds or allow people to perform physically beyond what would be considered "normal" if not for the "magic" behind the music of the bard.   

    I'm looking forward to Bards having group utility like invisibility, enduring breath, levitation etc... the rules of reality shouldn't be applied to Pantheon in regard to class abilities.  So to answer the O.P., I feel that Bards should be able to do damage (or whatever role the devs decide the Bard is going to fill.)

    edit:  I'd like to add that I understand what the O.P. was suggesting, and this is just my opinion.  I could see a bard using physical weapons like in EQ1 & EQ2 as well.  I really appreciated the Bards in DAoC and Camelot Unchained basically being mobile casters with great buffs/debuffs, CC and moderate DPS/Healing through song though.  I never played Vanguard, but I looked up the Bard mechanic, and the song creation "looked" amazing in text.  At the end of the day, I just hope the class is genuinely fun.


    This post was edited by Darch at January 16, 2019 5:53 AM PST
    • 20 posts
    January 16, 2019 11:03 PM PST

    Should Bard's do damage?  Absolutely.  Bards are typically the "Jack of all trades" class in high fantasy games.  So that means moderate levels of basically every role that can be played. Moderate off-tanking, moderate damage, moderate healing, moderate crowd control.  They should be able to adequately fill roles using songs, but should have a difficult/impossible ability to fill more than one role at a time.

    I also believe there could be specializations within the Bard class to futher hone certain roles at the expense of others.


    This post was edited by Kulanae at January 16, 2019 11:04 PM PST
    • 7 posts
    January 22, 2019 8:02 AM PST

    Bards are magic users, like a wizard or a cleric. The difference is instead of a wand or a prayer book, their arcane focus is an instrument. So once you put aside the “realism” of some guy playing a flute and making someone's head explode, life gets much easier. It’s not real, it’s not physics, it’s magic. And magic cheats. Bard Extraordinaire didn’t just play a flute and the sound made some guy’s head explode, Bard Extraordinaire cast a spell through the flute. But if you want to think more realism we can try.

    If you think of the two types of damage spells someone could cast, there are AOE spells (like you play a metal power chord on your lyre and cause an earthquake), and there are single-target psychic/mental damage spells (like a frontman wagging his eyebrows at some groupie in the front row and she faints). The buffs and defuffs would work similarly, as would something like D&D bards’ class specialties, cutting words and bardic inspiration. Cutting Words is like an interrupt: Mr. Baddie swings at someone, Bard Extrordinaire distracts him with a perfectly timed arpeggio or wailed money note, and Mr. Baddie might miss. Bardic Inspiration works like a one-use buff for something crazy important: Ms. Party Member is about to do something very hard, Bard Extrordinaire gives her a thumbs up and shouts, “You can do it!”, and Ms. Party Member thinks, “Wow, if someone as cool as Bard Extraordinaire thinks I can do it, I bet I can!” and has a higher chance of succeeding (note that I don't see the implementation of something so situational like this working in a video game; it would probably be something more general like a group Bless spell or something).

    So the answer for this is “Yes, Bards should be able to do all kinds of damage, and also single target because, in the end, bards are the coolest. Oh, and magic.”


    This post was edited by Tesserae at January 22, 2019 8:04 AM PST
    • 44 posts
    January 22, 2019 11:38 AM PST

    For me a Bard has always been jack of all trades and master of non.  You have to realize when talking fantasy bards they had their orgins stemmed from midevil time bards. These bards traveled from tavern to tavern preforming, usually as a troupe of some sort.  They had all sorts fo ways to accomplish their living. From stealing, to killing to defending oneself. EQ bard was so right on the money. They could do magical effects from music, and could use about any weapon. Not as good as a rogue with a dagger but good enough. Not as good as ranger with Bow but good enough.  

     

    In my 20+ years of playing bards in about every game out there, from pen and paper to bards tale to Everquest and so on. Bards shoudl be exactly that jack of everything and master of non(except over land travel speed is must to be master of). Let me stick some mob with a sword while singing a litte ditty. Let me soak a few hits while tank gets over to take the mob. Let me mesmerize the mobs with an irish jig. Let me shot that dragon while I race by laughing a joyious laugh. Let me patch heal till the healer gets unstunned. Basiclly let me be the one that a group doesn't need but when I am there they really notice a difference.

    • 337 posts
    January 22, 2019 9:39 PM PST

    Paloo said:

    For me a Bard has always been jack of all trades and master of non.  You have to realize when talking fantasy bards they had their orgins stemmed from midevil time bards. 

     

    I'll use this reply but I could use the others prior to that as wel. 

    Pantheon is a new game, many races or classes are being reinvented. The bard for Pantheon might be something different then what most players expect it to become. A jack of all trades, is something that isn't new. Is it challenging? Would it fit into the vision of how Pantheon wants to make things more challenging? Does it facilitate cooperation or does it just make things easier in game? 

    I'm not replying just to disagree, rather to mention; "Hey, keep our inovative caps on and keep thinking outside the box." On the other side, we don't have to reinvent the lightbulb. But perhaps, the bard in Pantheon could have it's own signature playstyle. A playstyle you do NOT find in other mmo's. Or only parts of it. So far, the information about the bard leaves us with a lot of room to work on. The jack of all trades, might be too quick of a design choice to be made? 

    On a side note @Paloo, let's just say that I have a completely different understanding of bards and minstrels in midevil times. I would doubt a minstrel at the kings court could (or was allowed to) do anything but play music. A singing bowmen at the local pub doesn't make that bowmen a bard. 

    • 337 posts
    January 22, 2019 9:52 PM PST

    Tesserae said:

    Bards are magic users, like a wizard or a cleric. The difference is instead of a wand or a prayer book, their arcane focus is an instrument. So once you put aside the “realism” of some guy playing a flute and making someone's head explode, life gets much easier. It’s not real, it’s not physics, it’s magic. 

     

    I understand what you're suggesting, only partly I'm afraid. Could you narrow it down a bit for me?

    Yes, you state that bards use magic. And therefore do magical damage. A wizard does fire, cold and arcane damage. A cleric however divine magic. 

    Are you suggesting that a bard should do all four kinds of damage? Or would you put it all into one basket and call it mental damage? A different damage style all together, but could be explained as "magically damaging abilities". 

    Or how would you like to categorize the bards damage. Do you see it as sufficient to call it Magic damage? 

    To add on to that, what pool would the bard have to gain power from? Would it be more in lines of the cleric's Celestial pool or something more in line with the spell-weavings of the wizard? Perhaps the bard could find pieces of lyrics or melodies that they can add into their own living codex, that ultimately would impact their abilities? Or perhaps cataloging the musical instrument across Terminus could do the trick?

    I don't want to divert off topic here. It could relate to your kind of magical damage your suggesting @Tesserae


    This post was edited by Barin999 at January 22, 2019 9:53 PM PST
    • 20 posts
    January 23, 2019 1:51 AM PST

    People have expectations when any game uses Iconic class names like Ranger, Paladin, Bard.  If you change them too much, you might as well just make up a new class name.

    • 44 posts
    January 23, 2019 8:18 AM PST

    Kulanae said:

    People have expectations when any game uses Iconic class names like Ranger, Paladin, Bard.  If you change them too much, you might as well just make up a new class name.

     

    Exactly my point. A quick way to piss off your followers is to vary to far from norms of precieved culture. Preception in a lot of things is truth.  I am not saying VR shouldn't put their own twist onto any calss, but a class that is seeded with such depths of High Fantasy as Bards, it is hard to vary to far off before you get WTFs.  

    • 44 posts
    January 23, 2019 8:35 AM PST

    Barin999 said:

    Paloo said:

    For me a Bard has always been jack of all trades and master of non.  You have to realize when talking fantasy bards they had their orgins stemmed from midevil time bards. 

     

    I'll use this reply but I could use the others prior to that as wel. 

    Pantheon is a new game, many races or classes are being reinvented. The bard for Pantheon might be something different then what most players expect it to become. A jack of all trades, is something that isn't new. Is it challenging? Would it fit into the vision of how Pantheon wants to make things more challenging? Does it facilitate cooperation or does it just make things easier in game? 

    I'm not replying just to disagree, rather to mention; "Hey, keep our inovative caps on and keep thinking outside the box." On the other side, we don't have to reinvent the lightbulb. But perhaps, the bard in Pantheon could have it's own signature playstyle. A playstyle you do NOT find in other mmo's. Or only parts of it. So far, the information about the bard leaves us with a lot of room to work on. The jack of all trades, might be too quick of a design choice to be made? 

    On a side note @Paloo, let's just say that I have a completely different understanding of bards and minstrels in midevil times. I would doubt a minstrel at the kings court could (or was allowed to) do anything but play music. A singing bowmen at the local pub doesn't make that bowmen a bard. 

     

    I am not sure I really understand you. You ask what everyone would like to see out of Bard damage and then when I stat what I personally would like to see you tear it down and for us to keep our thinking caps on.  That is a kin to, a boss telling his employees he come up with an idea to improve sales. Then tears their ideas down untill they agree his idea is the best way. I use words like "For me". To stat what I would like out of the bard.

    • 337 posts
    January 23, 2019 12:14 PM PST

    Paloo said:

    I am not sure I really understand you. You ask what everyone would like to see out of Bard damage and then when I stat what I personally would like to see you tear it down and for us to keep our thinking caps on.  That is a kin to, a boss telling his employees he come up with an idea to improve sales. Then tears their ideas down untill they agree his idea is the best way. I use words like "For me". To stat what I would like out of the bard.

    @Paloo It was not my intention to come across personal. I'm just aiming for an open dialog with room for discussion without harming those who reply. 

    We're all on these forums to aid the dev's with ideas andwhat not. I for one, am not in the position to judge anyone. So I won't. Apologies if it felt like I was giving a personal negative feedback. 

     

    It's understandable that the Bard should not be a completely different class. A touch of Pantheon will make it unique enough already. Thinking about how the bard might look in Pantheon and it's style of damage, it would make a lot of sense to see it very similarly as we're accustomed to it in other games. And I'ld gladly role it as my main knowing that. This is just an open conversation with no good or bad replies. 

     

    • 3 posts
    January 28, 2019 10:02 AM PST

    As a long time Bard in EQ, I would say absolutely yes, they should be able to do damage.  The common thread I see here is that songs don't do damage...this is fantasy people.  All spellcasters say words to cast, when was the last time you were killed in RL by someone talking to you?  I soloed my Bard to max level during the PoP expansion without the support of a guild (solo by choice, then I joined one of the best in EQ, White Wind FTW!!!!).  Without the ability to do an acceptable level of damage, my road of progression would not have happened the way that it did.  Anyone who has played a Bard in the past will not want to play a non-damaging Bard.  The entire point of a Bard is to be a jack of all skills but a master of none, that was always been true of the Bard class regardless of game and fantasy literature.  While classes with competing skills (Enchanters, druids...etc) have superior skills in their particular magic disciplines, the composite of Bard skills makes for a formidable class that outside of being the main tank allow them to do almost anything if the player is willing to hone the skills needed.  While Pantheon isn't Everquest and isn't meant to be an updated clone of that classic game, it does draw considerable inspiration from EQ.  From that inspiration, I'm hoping for a Bard class with a similar balance of skills and damage. LONG LIVE THE BARDS OF EVERQUEST, LONG LIVE THE BARDS (I hope!) OF PANTHEON! 

     

    Cheers!

    • 40 posts
    February 15, 2019 6:59 AM PST

    As mentioned, player bards are not "good performers", they are magic users. Not all bards could work as adventurers.

    Yes bards need to do damage, EQ had the class almost perfect actually, in most groups the bard did not do that much damage himself but that was due to needing to focus on other things. If needed though, for example if the group has 2 bards one could go DPS mode and do more damage then all other none DPS classes.

    Thats why they need to do damage


    This post was edited by Warioc at February 15, 2019 7:03 AM PST
    • 337 posts
    February 16, 2019 9:10 PM PST

    Warioc said:

    As mentioned, player bards are not "good performers", they are magic users. Not all bards could work as adventurers.

    Yes bards need to do damage, EQ had the class almost perfect actually, in most groups the bard did not do that much damage himself but that was due to needing to focus on other things. If needed though, for example if the group has 2 bards one could go DPS mode and do more damage then all other none DPS classes.

    Thats why they need to do damage

    You make an interesting point here;

    1) 'A bard in most groups did not do that much damage himself,.., due to needing to focus on other things.' 

    This is exactly the question, where do you see the balance between the two? Should the bard be occupieing themselves during the encounters mainly with those other things (mezz, boost, heal, debuff, etc.) Or should that just be a required action at the start of the encounter and after that, they'll just be able to focus on their own dps? Or should the "other things" do damage in any scenario?

    2) 'If the group had 2 bards, one could go dps mode'

    Would you prefer it so that one would need that 2nd bard in order for one of them to dps? Forming up groups might have an impact on this class requirement. The initial expectation of a group asking for a bard, might be not be for their dps. An actual dps class might suit them better then a second bard? Or do you see this 2nd bard similarly to any 2nd class in a group that can switch their focus to dps rather then their primary goal?

     

    • 40 posts
    February 17, 2019 9:54 AM PST

    OK, lets see.

    1) In my opinion an optimal played bard should provide medium DPS while supporting the group. The main focus for the bard though is to support the group. I will go back to comparing to Eq again since I really loved bards in EQ. Bards where never overpowered in EQ (lets ignore solo kiting, I never really soloed with my bard and don't care for it) but always an asset to the group and what made them very fun to play was that how you played your bard was really depending on how the group was formed.

      1. Did you have a monk/Sk - if not you were probably pulling
      2. Do you have a chanter - Not much CC, primarily in initial pull then switch to haste/mana + utility songs while doing DPS
      3. Didn't have a chanter - Well you are now responsible for CC together with rangers/druids but you still need to mix in some utility for the group and if you are good DPS
      4. No shaman - well time to load up that slow song and check the group composition for next requirement
      5. ..and so on


    2) The bard should never be able to take over primary roles, for example DPS. I don't think I ever went full DPS mode in EQ, meaning using damaging songs/self buffs only. There were never any reason for it. Even in a group with 2 bards there are usually something besides DD/Dot songs to use. So let me answer it this way, the group overall should always be better off to have the bard support them compared to focus on his own DPS. A bard focusing only on his own DPS should hae the best DPS after only primary DPS charater but focusing on pure self DPS should make the overall group DPS lower in 99% of the cases.


    This post was edited by Warioc at February 17, 2019 9:58 AM PST
    • 275 posts
    February 27, 2019 8:25 AM PST

    I would like to see the Bard mirror the enchanter as far as utility and over all DPS in Pantheon. Currently the Enchanter is the only class listed as Crowd Control. I know other classes have CC abilities but I think having two different playstyles that both focus on CC as their primary role is good. I think a Bard SHOULD be able to do DPS, but I don't expect it to be a DPS class. 

    • 337 posts
    March 2, 2019 8:43 PM PST

    Warioc said:

    OK, lets see.

    1) In my opinion an optimal played bard should provide medium DPS while supporting the group. The main focus for the bard though is to support the group. I will go back to comparing to Eq again since I really loved bards in EQ. Bards where never overpowered in EQ (lets ignore solo kiting, I never really soloed with my bard and don't care for it) but always an asset to the group and what made them very fun to play was that how you played your bard was really depending on how the group was formed.

      1. Did you have a monk/Sk - if not you were probably pulling
      2. Do you have a chanter - Not much CC, primarily in initial pull then switch to haste/mana + utility songs while doing DPS
      3. Didn't have a chanter - Well you are now responsible for CC together with rangers/druids but you still need to mix in some utility for the group and if you are good DPS
      4. No shaman - well time to load up that slow song and check the group composition for next requirement
      5. ..and so on


    2) The bard should never be able to take over primary roles, for example DPS. I don't think I ever went full DPS mode in EQ, meaning using damaging songs/self buffs only. There were never any reason for it. Even in a group with 2 bards there are usually something besides DD/Dot songs to use. So let me answer it this way, the group overall should always be better off to have the bard support them compared to focus on his own DPS. A bard focusing only on his own DPS should hae the best DPS after only primary DPS charater but focusing on pure self DPS should make the overall group DPS lower in 99% of the cases.

    Yep, sounds about fair. Fingers crossed that they won't divert over time..

    • 32 posts
    March 11, 2019 9:38 AM PDT

    Bards should do damage by supporting the other party members. Le buffs.

    I'm curious to how they're going to make it different than enchanters though

    • 20 posts
    March 13, 2019 6:20 PM PDT

    Personally I would love to see something we have never really seen, a Bard that is a song/spell user and a ranged DPS class using a bow.

    • 1628 posts
    March 13, 2019 11:38 PM PDT

    Kulanae said:

    Personally I would love to see something we have never really seen, a Bard that is a song/spell user and a ranged DPS class using a bow.

     

    That's FFXIV's bard, or rift's bard...

     

    Obviously bard are rare enough in mmo games for theses occurences to be quite representative.