Forums » The Bard

Should bards do damage?

    • 353 posts
    March 19, 2019 2:55 PM PDT

    What I always loved about the Bard in EQ was that you were an Enchanter with cool items. As a long time enchanter all of our gear was fairly bland. Robe and a staff, all very meh. The bard got armor, swords, daggers, instruments, he was like the cool looking enchanter. The Bard was one of those "fill in the blank" classes too in that they could fill numerous roles within a group. Given the nature of open world MMOs that type of class is very important. You're not always going to be able to min/max your group make up. You'll need those jack of all trade classes to fill out the missing roles.

     

    For the most part I don't think we need to remake the wheel here. Most MMOs don't have Bards or utility classes. Let Bards do some damage with melee weapons. The bard should be able to pick his role in the group. Do I need to be DPS? Focus on that at the cost of utility. Do I need to be CC? Focus on that at the cost of DPS. Do I need to be a buff bot... maybe not force them to sacrifice too much as a buff bot but have it a managable resource.

     

    Every group isn't going to have a War/Cleric/Enchanter. People are going to find weird places to camp due to everything being open world and they are going to need to make less than perfect groups while doing it. 

    • 21 posts
    April 4, 2019 5:50 PM PDT

    They should play a really bad out-of-tune song for AoE dmg to enemies, that would be awesome. The flipside is it would break any mez.

    • 235 posts
    April 5, 2019 7:38 AM PDT

    wuznar said:

    As a long time Bard in EQ, I would say absolutely yes, they should be able to do damage.  The common thread I see here is that songs don't do damage...this is fantasy people.  All spellcasters say words to cast, when was the last time you were killed in RL by someone talking to you?  I soloed my Bard to max level during the PoP expansion without the support of a guild (solo by choice, then I joined one of the best in EQ, White Wind FTW!!!!).  Without the ability to do an acceptable level of damage, my road of progression would not have happened the way that it did.  Anyone who has played a Bard in the past will not want to play a non-damaging Bard.  The entire point of a Bard is to be a jack of all skills but a master of none, that was always been true of the Bard class regardless of game and fantasy literature.  While classes with competing skills (Enchanters, druids...etc) have superior skills in their particular magic disciplines, the composite of Bard skills makes for a formidable class that outside of being the main tank allow them to do almost anything if the player is willing to hone the skills needed.  While Pantheon isn't Everquest and isn't meant to be an updated clone of that classic game, it does draw considerable inspiration from EQ.  From that inspiration, I'm hoping for a Bard class with a similar balance of skills and damage. LONG LIVE THE BARDS OF EVERQUEST, LONG LIVE THE BARDS (I hope!) OF PANTHEON! 

     

    Cheers!

    Soloing to max level in PoP sounds more like a jack of all skills and master of most. While I certainly appreciate opportunities for solo play (log in, had a bad day, don't want to socialize, just looking for quiet, mindless mob smashing, etc), it shouldn't be the norm. I have to wonder if bards doing damage is born of this. I think every class will have some limited solo capability, some less limited than others, but overall it's about each player's contribution to the group. I'd rather see songs that debuff mobs and buff group members, personally. To me, the bard is the ultimate momentum shifter. Yes, I think they should have some melee capabilities, possibly even some damaging songs, but I'd much rather see (and play) them in a much more utilitarian manner.

    Kumu said:

    Make your group look good, while looking good.

    The best bards I ever grouped and raided with shared the above philosophy.

     

    • 6 posts
    April 26, 2019 9:59 PM PDT

    Paloo said:

    Basiclly let me be the one that a group doesn't need but when I am there they really notice a difference.

     

    PERFECTO! 

    • 70 posts
    April 27, 2019 9:03 AM PDT

    I think a bards effectiveness should be based on choice.

    If we want to get fantasy, we could say as a bard your power would emanate from the emotion which comes from the song or story you are singing. It would be difficult to sing a song that inspires both fear in others and inspires power in the group.

    That being said, if you wanted to maximize your damage it would come at the cost of not being capable of maximizing on the songs that could benefit the group. If your goal was to support the group it would limit your ability to maximize on damage.

    A bard should have alot of utility. He should have the ability to maximize his damage to play as a dps, however in order to do so he would be unable to support. He could maximize the effectiveness of the group, but then be incapable of serving as an effect DPS. He could possibly do a little of both but then be far less efective in both. Being a storyteller he can always change the story on the fly to change the result. He could start on a mob focusing on support but change roles to finish with a focus on DPS.

    • 608 posts
    April 28, 2019 10:38 AM PDT
    I would like to see the bard do decent damage along the lines of The Enchanter.

    I hope to see the bard in leather armor, playing songs that assist the grp, lullabys that put mobs to sleep, I also hope most of a bards damage comes from meele attacks with some sonic ranges attacks
    • 45 posts
    May 2, 2019 5:52 PM PDT

    I would love to see a Bard that sacrificed ALL his/her damage for the benefit of the group.  If the Bard focuses on their magical songs forgoing any Melee/Ranged damage, their songs should increase in potency and offset the lost damage.  Eventually, the buffs should cause the rest of the team to do more damage then what the Bard would have offered if they didn't focus on their music.  

    • 1 posts
    May 19, 2019 10:53 AM PDT

    Personally, I'm hoping for a variation of the Bard similar to the version in EQOA. I'm hoping for that melee DD experience mixed in with the support role. 

    • 248 posts
    May 19, 2019 3:03 PM PDT

    Genorok said:

    Personally, I'm hoping for a variation of the Bard similar to the version in EQOA. I'm hoping for that melee DD experience mixed in with the support role. 

    Yes! I loved Bards in EQOA for that same reason. Since Bard is primarily going to be a CC class in Pantheon, I'm not sure how much damage they will realistically do...but I too am a big fan of the wandering gypsy-minstrel-swashbuckler-type Bard.

    • 248 posts
    May 19, 2019 3:06 PM PDT

    I also think it would be very cool if some of their CC and support abilities were tied to melee attacks, even if they didn't do a ton of damage. But then, I also want to see some solid musical ability at the same time. It will be interesting to see how the devs balance it out.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at May 19, 2019 3:09 PM PDT
    • 248 posts
    May 19, 2019 3:11 PM PDT

    Mirthosium said:

    I would love to see a Bard that sacrificed ALL his/her damage for the benefit of the group.  If the Bard focuses on their magical songs forgoing any Melee/Ranged damage, their songs should increase in potency and offset the lost damage.  Eventually, the buffs should cause the rest of the team to do more damage then what the Bard would have offered if they didn't focus on their music.  

    That's a very cool idea. I would love to see a system where the Bard could choose their "stance" (more combat or more musical) depending on what the group needed most.

    • 19 posts
    July 16, 2019 7:13 AM PDT
    There's quite a few here that seem to like the idea non dmg strictly musical type bard. While not for me, about the only way to achieve this would be with stances. A musical bard would play like a caster and I think they'd like to add some depth to the CC archetype, chanter being caster and bard being melee oriented.

    I personally loved EQOA bards. Between their normal (non class choice) combat bluffs, and power regen, to their minor heal regen song their versatility was unmatched.

    With a bard in your group and a little creativity you could always find something to do. Playing a rogue at the time we would routinely sub a bard for a tank or a healer or even both. Of course we wouldn't take on normal traditional group content and we'd play more conservatively but we could manage quest mobs, faction farms, explore, etc.
    • 4 posts
    November 28, 2019 7:40 PM PST

    Keep in mind that a Bard's songs are just as magical as they are musical. Indeed a Bard's identifying characteristic is his ability to weave magic Into his words and sounds. In that regard there's no reason to assume every song is an AOE effect. A Bard of sufficient skill could easily ensure that the effects of a sound or song only affect one, a few, or many targets. This allows Bard's within a gameplay setting to use single target, frontal cone, and aoe abilities.

    • 52 posts
    February 14, 2020 3:29 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    Class fantasy doesn't always equal real life applications (as far as single target). I think the Bard, from a damage standpoint, should be probably be tank level dps. It really depends how much utility they add to the group (and themselves) for overall damage. You are looking at the balance of bard vs enchanter - and the enchanter will have charm, so the bard MUST be competitive to the enchanter + pet.

     

    Enchanters with really strong pets (buffed up with haste and some summoned weapons) did very good DPS in EQ...with the threat of breaking and attacking the group and killing everyone. BUT. with perma charm?? Who's to say an Enchanter will not do respectable DPS? Meaning a bard would in essence deal respectable DPS also right?

    • 1633 posts
    February 14, 2020 4:22 PM PST

    ShaggNasty said:

    Enchanters with really strong pets (buffed up with haste and some summoned weapons) did very good DPS in EQ...with the threat of breaking and attacking the group and killing everyone. BUT. with perma charm?? Who's to say an Enchanter will not do respectable DPS? Meaning a bard would in essence deal respectable DPS also right?

    They have talked about charmed mobs being tuned down and how they don't want them to be as powerful as they were in EQ.


    This post was edited by philo at February 14, 2020 4:32 PM PST
    • 32 posts
    February 16, 2020 7:27 AM PST

    I know my idea is unpopular, but I think bards should have a pet wind up monkey.  The pet should be able to attack or play a song that way the bard/monkey combo could either both play, for more song buff/damage or one could attack while the other played, or they could both attack.

    • 634 posts
    February 16, 2020 3:01 PM PST

    Every class in the game can solo - some better than others - according to VR. So of course the Bard will be able to do damage. Whether that is thru his music or his sword I don't know. I never played EQ, but I'll point out that my Vanguard Bard could play his songs (as long as he had mana) while also dual-wielding swords. (FANTASY game, yeah) Also, my Bard could do direct damage with his songs as well as swords, though as pointed out earlier Bard songs were all AoE.

    Bard is a CC, so I expect his damage to be roughly equal to Enchanter. We have no info yet that I know of concerning the relative level of damage between Healers and CCers. But I expect them both to do less than Tanks, and certainly less than DPS classes.

     

    VR has stated more than once that class distinction is a very high value in their game design. And that they aren't expecting any class to be able to switch gear and effectively fill a different role against challenging content.

    So while a group that already has a Tank, Healer & CC would certainly benefit from inviting any other class along to add utlity and extra DPS, a career of playing some class "against type" might not be impossible, but the odds don't look promising at this stage.

    • 634 posts
    February 16, 2020 3:04 PM PST

    mallanb81 said:

    I know my idea is unpopular, but I think bards should have a pet wind up monkey.  The pet should be able to attack or play a song that way the bard/monkey combo could either both play, for more song buff/damage or one could attack while the other played, or they could both attack.

    Only if he wears a red vest and Fez, and his beginner's weapons are dual-wielded cymbals!

    :D

    • 32 posts
    February 16, 2020 11:13 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    Only if he wears a red vest and Fez, and his beginner's weapons are dual-wielded cymbals!

    :D

    Finally someone else gets it

    • 389 posts
    February 17, 2020 5:33 AM PST

    mallanb81 said:

    Jothany said:

    Only if he wears a red vest and Fez, and his beginner's weapons are dual-wielded cymbals!

    :D

    Finally someone else gets it

    I tried to post a pic yesterday, but our forums are still lame. Look forward to better forums~

    • 41 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:00 PM PST

    I think Bards should do Psionic damage, or Sonic damage or any combination thereof. 

    I believe they should be able to do damage, and they should be able to use "white" damage from weapons as an additional source of damage.

    I believe they should bring something unique to the table and impact creatures with mental, sound damage, let that be their Special attacks and then add the weapon damage as added damage, that everyone else should have access to. 

    Better woven or composed sounds, the more inspiration or damage they can cause.

    Allow their music to cause interruptions in spells.

    Charm creatures with their alluring melodies 

    Inspire allies to greatness

    Sooth injuries with calming words and tones

    • 9 posts
    March 28, 2020 4:25 PM PDT

    I always liked bards as healers with CC and buffs, not doing much damage and wearing leather or lower armor. When I saw bards fighting in melee it always felt wrong to me, because in my mind it's singer, a pacifistic class, not a rogue or a warrior type.


    This post was edited by DCCLXXVII at March 28, 2020 4:26 PM PDT
    • 24 posts
    March 29, 2020 12:27 AM PDT

    One thing that really hasn't been covered is itemization.  Bards need to have compelling items that benefit them in the same ways that other classes do.  Too often in Everquest, the Bard was seen as benefiting the group regardless of the items they were wearing other than an instrument or class weapon.  This led to Bard's being passed over in loot distribution because other classes gained a better return on the time investment a guild was making.  As a support class, that seems to happen a lot in games, but I think it is time the trend reversed itself and support classes were valued not only for their innate abilities, but in how those abilities can be enhanced by looted items.


    This post was edited by Kulanae at March 29, 2020 12:28 AM PDT
    • 634 posts
    March 29, 2020 9:48 AM PDT

    Kulanae said:

    Bards need to have compelling items that benefit them in the same ways that other classes do....I think it is time the trend reversed itself and support classes were valued not only for their innate abilities, but in how those abilities can be enhanced by looted items.

    Happily, there seems to be a system that will contribute greatly to achieving this. Many if not most ability descriptions appear to have tool tips that explain which attributes contribute to the ability, and even specify various percentages of contribution. For Bards, it appears that Charisma will be a big foundation to the power of songs. So while player attitudes won't automatically change from this, those playing a Bard will have facts on which to base a claim for equal chances to claim loot that benefits them.

    Equally, VR has emphasized repeatedly that CC will be as necessary to group success (in anything other than casual grinding) as the other 3 roles. Presumably, rational guild leadership will quickly come to recognize this truth.

    • 1816 posts
    March 29, 2020 1:38 PM PDT

    Kulanae said:

    One thing that really hasn't been covered is itemization.  Bards need to have compelling items that benefit them in the same ways that other classes do.  Too often in Everquest, the Bard was seen as benefiting the group regardless of the items they were wearing other than an instrument or class weapon.  This led to Bard's being passed over in loot distribution because other classes gained a better return on the time investment a guild was making.  As a support class, that seems to happen a lot in games, but I think it is time the trend reversed itself and support classes were valued not only for their innate abilities, but in how those abilities can be enhanced by looted items.

     

    There is also the possibility to improve bard for every player affected by his songs, making other stronger but himself also stronger than if he was just solo buffing himself. It would improve his scaling on top of making other better, which would in turn make the bard a good choice for itemization too.