Forums » Pantheon Classes

How to deal with class distribution choices by players

    • 4 posts
    January 6, 2019 5:47 AM PST

    When I first played wow in 04 (my first mmorpg) I had no clue playing a priest/cleric was going to mean I got to group with people all the time beacuse I was a healer and mostly required for group play and at least in the first couple years in short supply. It was a great experiance. 

     

    A majority piling into 3-4 classes would be a bummer when 12(+) class choices appear to be avaliable. 

     

    maybe not an issue?

     

     

    • 24 posts
    January 6, 2019 1:50 PM PST

    Tank and healing classes are always in high demand since they have the toughest jobs. Especially the tank classes. This is a non-issue; as long as the classes are balanced there shouldn't be 3 or 4 classes having a vast majority.

    • 945 posts
    January 7, 2019 11:02 AM PST

    Early in the game's release I don't foresee any classes having issues getting groups because there will be a lot of players leveling up.  Once the game has been around for a couple of years that will likely change.  This is specifically why I never play a DPS class that is incapable of soloing in any MMO... at the end of the day, anyone can deal damage, but not everyone can heal, or shut down a whole fight indefinitely.  Healers and CC will always be able to get a group for this reason.  You don't need a tank for all content either... you can do a whole group of casters and have nobody ever get hit more than once or twice if played well.  (3 summoners, 2 enchanters and a druid could be GG for a lot of content with the druid's reverberation increasing the summoner's pet healing abilities, summoners conjuring behemoths for enchanters to perma-charm and enchanters feeding mana along with CC.)

    • 124 posts
    January 10, 2019 5:27 AM PST

    totally understand your concern, and as Darch stated, in the start this won't be much of an issue. Later on i too expect it will be an issue. People will start to rely on alternative characters to fill up groups or 'botting' an alt to do so. I know for fact that this was the game killer for me in EQ1 and 2 when population started to shrink.

    For raiding and grouping you will always need a good mix of all players, just some more than others. But this also depends on the make up of the classes. The 'problem' eventually in EQ1 was that you could buff outside the group. Meaning in a 12 group raid, you didn't actually need more than 1 shaman or enchanter. I do not know how Pantheon is going to work that out. Everquest 2 for example had primarily group only buffs / spells, meaning you had to balance groups out more. But this also ment that you didn't need as many healers as EQ1 did. Rift gave a whole different twist that i know Pantheon won't follow, where you could 'switch' role on the go.

    There are however different situations needing different group make-ups. So i geuss in the end it totally depends on the environment combined with class make up if the player base regarding active classes stays in balance. To avoid situations like Darch mentioned, where you don't actually need a tank.

    • 100 posts
    January 10, 2019 6:02 AM PST

    Unless a specific class is vastly overpowered or much more fun to play than the other ones, it probably won't be the case and it will change with time as the community understand the game and classes better.

    Many players like to play DPS, partially because you feel like you are doing the work or killing the mobs you have a direct impact on the fight and playing Tanks or Healers is usually harder and feel more responsible of a group wipe.

    And in Wow all classes could be DPS and it was the fastest spec for soloing, so even if you pick a healer class some would be played as DPS so it does not mean there wasn't many of those classes, just that they may not have been dedicated healers.
    And that probably won't be the case of pantheon because classes won't have specialisation but very dedicated roles.


    This post was edited by Khraag at January 10, 2019 6:24 AM PST
    • 4 posts
    January 10, 2019 6:07 AM PST

    Glad this is generating some discussion. I'm hoping its a non-issue. However I want to throw out the idea that when selecting class in game one can see some data(if not extact count) of each class so one can contemplate playing the least played class, its a strategy I would consider, if I could determine what that class was. 

    • 9 posts
    January 12, 2019 12:36 AM PST

    It will be interesting for this game. When I recently browsed the class types, I was suprised. Most MMO's are heavy in DPS classes, with one or two of the heal/tank types. this game actually has an even spread: 4 of each traditional archetype, with 1 CC (I'm sure a few others will have CC potential, but only 1 lists CC as a role). And only one of the DPS is a melee class!

    Makes me wonder how they see the overall group function, and if they are imagioning something slightly different then the usual 1 tank 1 heals rest DPS. Or perhaps they plan on having most classes with enough flexibility to stretch...maybe healers and tanks will be doing more damage then your traditional "tank".

    either way, the lower amount of pure DPS classes to me means that there will be a better spread of roles overall. I think perhaps the biggest barrier will be personal preference based on lore. Saw a recent poll with a suprising number of players choosing support and heal and tank roles...DPS was actually lower overall then the other roles. Gives me the impression that it won't be as big of an issue as it is in other MMO's (if class balance is worked out well).


    This post was edited by temjiu at January 12, 2019 12:39 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    January 14, 2019 3:07 PM PST

    temjiu said:

    It will be interesting for this game. When I recently browsed the class types, I was suprised. Most MMO's are heavy in DPS classes, with one or two of the heal/tank types. this game actually has an even spread: 4 of each traditional archetype, with 1 CC (I'm sure a few others will have CC potential, but only 1 lists CC as a role). And only one of the DPS is a melee class!

    Makes me wonder how they see the overall group function, and if they are imagioning something slightly different then the usual 1 tank 1 heals rest DPS. Or perhaps they plan on having most classes with enough flexibility to stretch...maybe healers and tanks will be doing more damage then your traditional "tank".

    either way, the lower amount of pure DPS classes to me means that there will be a better spread of roles overall. I think perhaps the biggest barrier will be personal preference based on lore. Saw a recent poll with a suprising number of players choosing support and heal and tank roles...DPS was actually lower overall then the other roles. Gives me the impression that it won't be as big of an issue as it is in other MMO's (if class balance is worked out well).

    Current spread is 3 tank, 3 healers, 5 DPS, 1 CC.

    3 DPS are melee (well, one of those three is a mix of melee/ranged)

    • 945 posts
    January 15, 2019 12:22 PM PST

    @Temjiu - I appreciate that you are noticing things like melee vs ranged vs primary role descriptions.  As @iksar said though, there are 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee DPS and 2 ranged DPS, and 1 CC.  But as you mentioned, Pantheon is in fact different from other MMOs in regard to the "holy-trinity" of tank/healer/DPS and is focused on a "quadrinity" of tank/healer/dps/cc; So with that said, you will in fact see tanks and CC (and in some situations overstaffed healers) participating in the DPS but on a smaller scale than a class dedicated to DPS.  We are still waiting for the Bard and Necromancer reveals in the class listings as well.  Some of us are "presumming" that the Bard will be a CC class with support secondary while the necro is completely up in the air (the devs are holding their cards close to their vest).  I'm personally hoping they are both CC to give 3 CC roles with the Necro being DPS as a secondary role.

    @Sevei - In EQ1 you could do a search in game that identified how many of a specific class were online at that time, and I'm sure after a few months of release (if the devs have not implimented a way of tracking how many of a race/class there is) there will be an online resource to identify player population according to race/class/server.


    This post was edited by Darch at January 15, 2019 12:23 PM PST
    • 56 posts
    January 23, 2019 10:08 AM PST

    Darch said:

    @Temjiu - I appreciate that you are noticing things like melee vs ranged vs primary role descriptions.  As @iksar said though, there are 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee DPS and 2 ranged DPS, and 1 CC.  But as you mentioned, Pantheon is in fact different from other MMOs in regard to the "holy-trinity" of tank/healer/DPS and is focused on a "quadrinity" of tank/healer/dps/cc; So with that said, you will in fact see tanks and CC (and in some situations overstaffed healers) participating in the DPS but on a smaller scale than a class dedicated to DPS.  We are still waiting for the Bard and Necromancer reveals in the class listings as well.  Some of us are "presumming" that the Bard will be a CC class with support secondary while the necro is completely up in the air (the devs are holding their cards close to their vest).  I'm personally hoping they are both CC to give 3 CC roles with the Necro being DPS as a secondary role.

     

    Sort of funny to me seeing "quadrinity" being batted around. Back in the day DPS was not part of the Holy Trinity. reason why dps was easy to come by and while important you didn't really worry about it to much. The Holy Trinity was Tank, usually warrior specificly, Healer cleric being the best, and Enchanter. 

    At some point people started calling Tank, Heal, Dps as the holy trinity. Mostly do to the lost art of Crowd Control. 

    • 945 posts
    January 24, 2019 6:20 AM PST

    @Paloo the "holy trinity" was coined during WoW (post EQ1).  DPS was one of the 3 archetypes in that game absolutely required to complete group/raid content.  The quadrinity is the phrase being coined by Pantheon identifying that there is absolutely a need to use Crowd Control and tactics instead of just trying to kill everything as fast as possible while one player takes all the damage and another player heals the damage.

    • 56 posts
    January 24, 2019 8:07 AM PST

    Darch said:

    @Paloo the "holy trinity" was coined during WoW (post EQ1).  DPS was one of the 3 archetypes in that game absolutely required to complete group/raid content.  The quadrinity is the phrase being coined by Pantheon identifying that there is absolutely a need to use Crowd Control and tactics instead of just trying to kill everything as fast as possible while one player takes all the damage and another player heals the damage.

     

    @Darch.....Holy trinity was used well before WoW was ever even launched and it was Tank, Healer, CCer.  Just read thru this forum from 2003 pre wow days about the changes to charm and holy trinity. https://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-608.html ; Not untill games went away from heavy crowd control did it shift to todays meaning. But like anything over time definitions of things change as things change. 60 years ago you heard the word Apple the first thing popped in your mind was the fruit. Today the first thing will be a phone. Go figure. I am not saying todays Holy Trinity isn't Tank/heal/dps but originally it wasn't.

    Matter of fact try being one of the first guilds to break into Plane of fear with out multipule of CCers (Druid/Shamans to charm animlas, not heal. Monks for feign pull)  of some form. Most raids back then wouldn't survive with out a cleric or five. The most sold accounts back then were Cleric with a "rez stick" epic, Enchanter and Necro.  All raids needed them. Raids could get by with any combo of DPS classes but need Warriors, Clerics and Enchanter.  Awesome Fear raid requirments.....

    "

    Raid Requirements

    First off, the raid should never exceed 7 full groups. The lag in a fully populated fearplane is incredible, and increases exponentially with over 42 people. If there are more people that want to go, there is ample opportunity for them to support the troops outside the portal.

    Tanks (and a lot of them) - Tanks in the raid need to get out their old armor class gear and dust it off. On the initial attempt, armor class is key. MOBs in there hit for 130+, as stated previously, and the more hits you can take, the longer you can stay alive to support the casters.

    Monks (at lEast two) - You need to have monks in at the zone in point or you're never going to break this place. Two monks feigned on either side of the zone in portal will be able to relay information back to the raid on when the safest time is to zone in. If you can't get monks to do it, the onus will fall on necros to do the job.

    Clerics - Each group going in really needs to have at lEast one cleric. Druids and Shamans do not substitute in this instance. They will be very occupied in other capacities inside such as charming and blasting. You need a devoted healer that has only one objective: Keep everyone alive as long as possible. Finding clerics for fear raids is rough, but you really have to make it a major priority. Raids have survived with one cleric, but not for long.

    Druids and Shamans - Druids are essential for the raiding party. They can charm animal MOBs that enter the camp without invitation, turning a foe into a nice level 50 pet. Shamans can Togor MOBs and drastically reduce the amount of damage dealt by them, as well as Malosi them to allow the casters to work more effectively.

    Necromancers - Necros perform a dual role in a break. First of all, the break involves having some key positions occupied by characters that are feigned; Second, necros can charm the undead MOBs that enter the camp without warning, again turning a foe into a very nice pet.

    Enchanters - Enchaters are the king of the debuffs, and this just may tip the scales in your favor, allowing you to eliminate a few MOBs. They can also mezmerize MOBs that enter the camp that cannot be charmed by either necros or druids (ie. Scarelings and Amys). Clarity may also make the difference by allowing that one extra blast, or that one extra heal. Some battles last upwards of 10 minutes, and clarity is very effective in these circumstances.

    Magicians - Every raid needs a magician. After the initial rush, the melee types wont have gear any more. They will need many things summoned including food, water and weapons. The mage is a key component of the raid."

     

    Sorry for the bad flashbacks of PoF breaking. 


    This post was edited by Paloo at January 24, 2019 8:08 AM PST
    • 1860 posts
    January 24, 2019 2:27 PM PST

    Darch said:

    @Paloo the "holy trinity" was coined during WoW (post EQ1). 

    lol no

    • 945 posts
    January 25, 2019 11:10 AM PST

    Paloo said:

    @Darch.....Holy trinity was used well before WoW was ever even launched and it was Tank, Healer, CCer.  

    Although you are right that the phrase was used in EQ1, there were no other MMO's that had more than 3 roles since then and the phrase was coined by WoW to relate to Tank, Healer, DPS for every MMO since.  In this case, "coining a phrase" relates to using a phrase commonly to mean something that everyone refers to.  Most people don't even know what vanilla everquest was like, but everyone (even non-gamers) knows what WoW is, and if you ask any modern gamer what "the holy trinity" is in MMOs, I would bet 99% of them would say Tank, Healer, DPS... not CC.  WoW may not have been the first game to "use" the phrase holy trinity (especially since it existed in D&D), but they certainly coineded the holy trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS that everyone knows today for MMOs.  

    Add: "Using" a phrase first isn't "coining" (making it commonly used and referred to something widely known).
    Add:  If EQ had coined the phrase, the "holy trinity" would mean Tank, Healer, CC...
    Add:  My statement wasn't to discount your observation, but to identify that PRotF is attempting to coin the term "quadrinity" to identify the need for 4 roles in MMOs instead of the commonly known trio.  (Even though there were 4 roles in EQ1, EQ1 never coined that phrase either.)


    This post was edited by Darch at January 25, 2019 1:46 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 6:42 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Paloo said:

    @Darch.....Holy trinity was used well before WoW was ever even launched and it was Tank, Healer, CCer.  

    Although you are right that the phrase was used in EQ1, there were no other MMO's that had more than 3 roles since then and the phrase was coined by WoW to relate to Tank, Healer, DPS for every MMO since.  In this case, "coining a phrase" relates to using a phrase commonly to mean something that everyone refers to.  Most people don't even know what vanilla everquest was like, but everyone (even non-gamers) knows what WoW is, and if you ask any modern gamer what "the holy trinity" is in MMOs, I would bet 99% of them would say Tank, Healer, DPS... not CC.  WoW may not have been the first game to "use" the phrase holy trinity (especially since it existed in D&D), but they certainly coineded the holy trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS that everyone knows today for MMOs.  

    Add: "Using" a phrase first isn't "coining" (making it commonly used and referred to something widely known).
    Add:  If EQ had coined the phrase, the "holy trinity" would mean Tank, Healer, CC...
    Add:  My statement wasn't to discount your observation, but to identify that PRotF is attempting to coin the term "quadrinity" to identify the need for 4 roles in MMOs instead of the commonly known trio.  (Even though there were 4 roles in EQ1, EQ1 never coined that phrase either.)

     

    True, DPS as a role was a more moden MMO thing. DPS as referencing as a role became popular about I think around Kunark time (hard to remember) where the community started to try and force EQ classes into specific roles (the developers didn't start this). I think DPS as a role is a pointless classification (well, I think roles in general are too narrow in design) and does more harm to the design. Every class can do damage, trying to classify which class is supposed to do the "most" only creates a cycle of nerfing and buffing that will never end and only result in angering the players. It is why I dislike most modern games these days as their focus is not on the designing the class vs the content, but trying to balance the classes vs each other, which when you combine human nature ends up with chaos.