Keno Monster said:There is a huge portion of the population who don't want maps. There's little point on them wasting time on an in game map if the only answer for it to exist is that "someone else will do it online". Yeah, so let that be.
I understand that, but the problem with relying on third party sites for mapping is that those sites A) Take you out of the game which reduces immersion B) These days, usually to a site littered with adverts which further reduces immersion C) Isn't usually sensitive to the art style and/or lore of the game even further reducing immersion D) Usually include every spoiler and detail there is along with the map making the game trivial.
Everyone used Allakhazam etc back in the day for EQ and it ended up so no one had patience with anyone who was unfamiliar or wanted to explore ("I'll be with you in a few minutes - got a bit lost". "Download the maps, loser!". "I'm not keen on spoiler maps". "We can't wait. We'll get someone else for the group"...
Also you'd maybe just want some help traversing a complex zone, but end up with every quest giver, quest drop, point of interest, etc all laid out and unignorable.
Done well, maps could be a great *addition* to the game, not just a 'cheat'. Cartography skill, magical divination, treasure map drops, etc. could lead to greater depth and encourage exploration rather than the opposite and it would all be inkeeping with the game style and lore.
Personally I can see a *lot* of point in the devs spending time on it.
Maps are like quests - many people respond negatively not because they actually feel the basic concept would be bad in Pantheon but because they think of how some "modern" MMOs applied the concept and they do not like that approach.
Thus - people say maps are terrible because it is bad to see quest objectives on the map, or see an arrow leading to where the quest sends you, or to see enemies as red dots through some kind of radar or the like.
But this isn't what "map" means. A map is simply a pictoral designation of what you can see, or have seen. Or what someone else has seen and written down.
To say "Pantheon should have no maps" is neither more nor less than saying that there should be no way of showing on the screen what the character has seen or is seeing, other than the standard third-person or first-person view.
I may agree that maps should not have magic radar that shows enemies (or friends) moving around. I may agree that maps should not show quest objectives or points of interest. I may agree that maps should not show anything that the character has not seen or is seeing. Or perhaps that some character with the cartography skill has seen and recorded.
But to say that Pantheon should not accept the very *concept* of map - something that our ancestors have used since the days of the cavemen? Because WoW or other MMOs added too much to the basic map. No and no and no again!!
That is like saying that Pantheon should not be a MMO because of all the unfortunate things MMOs have done over the last 10 or 15 years.
Someone already mentioned a cartography skill in another forum post when discussing maps. They went into great detail too. As maps take time and a bit of skill to create, low skill level maps would take less skill but also offer less detail for a map. You'd probably just see lines and little circles to show you roads and cities. As cartography levels up, you can craft better and more detailed maps. And these maps would be sold on the market place. Your newer adventurers would most likely only be able to afford the low level ones. I think there was also mention of a form of exploration to be involved in the cartography as well. Can't draw a map if you don't explore and know your surroundings by first hand experience.
I don't think its just "world maps" either, I believe it would be for dungeons, raids, etc too.
I believe a VR member also replied saying this was a good idea to consider adding into the game. So, although there is no mention of it yet... I think its safe to assume that these are thoughts or questions that get brought up often, and they are probably looking to add something like carography for the immersion or they are planning something for maps in general.
There was also an AMA by Brad McQuaid in which he addresses a lot of the biggest concerns people have with MMOs in general and the genre they are trying to focus on. Maps were also mentioned there. I don't think they forgot about these very important questions. They are always readdressing these concerns as they work on Pantheon and add more content to the game.
We'll just have to wait and see as the game draws closer to Alpha, then Beta, and finally Release.
I agree with Fancy - VR is keeping an eye on things and we don't really know yet how things will turn out. From what I have seen there is *not* a huge portion of the community that doesn't want maps. There is a very *small* but vocal portion that doesn't want maps. There is a far larger portion that doesn't want maps used the way they are used in WoW and LOTRO and SWTOR and Rift and .....
While the issues are quite separate - I see the community reaction as quite similar to the debates on quests.
On quests a small number of vocal people want there to be very few quests and the heart of the game to be grinding. A far larger number want quests to be less important than in most MMOs, with few if any quest hubs and no "golden path". The vocal "almost no quests" people interpret this as the great majority being against quests. I think they are badly mistaken. I think the great majority is against the use of quests to get to level cap fast. They are against the use of quest hubs to guide us through the game. They are against the use of quests to focus on our characters as heros or villains. But they are not against quests - in large numbers - to give stories and information and experience and loot as long as they do not fall into the errors of more recent MMOs.
Similarly I see the debates on maps as demonstrating that the great majority do not want to enter a zone, type M and see the whole zone. The great majority do not want their maps to show them where to go to do quests. The great majority to not want their maps to show them enemy movement through a magic radar. But this is oh so very far indeed from not wanting our characters to have a map showing only what they saw with their own eyes.
GIven it's all Unity, pulling the zone files out of ram, if necessary, will be done during pre-alpha, alpha, beta, and post-launch, immediately after the zones are part of the client files/image.
Why would it be any other way? Pixel accurate maps will be available instantly. This isn't 1999. People aren't going to suffer in ignorance.
disposalist said:Keno Monster said:There is a huge portion of the population who don't want maps. There's little point on them wasting time on an in game map if the only answer for it to exist is that "someone else will do it online". Yeah, so let that be.
I understand that, but the problem with relying on third party sites for mapping is that those sites A) Take you out of the game which reduces immersion B) These days, usually to a site littered with adverts which further reduces immersion C) Isn't usually sensitive to the art style and/or lore of the game even further reducing immersion D) Usually include every spoiler and detail there is along with the map making the game trivial.
Everyone used Allakhazam etc back in the day for EQ and it ended up so no one had patience with anyone who was unfamiliar or wanted to explore ("I'll be with you in a few minutes - got a bit lost". "Download the maps, loser!". "I'm not keen on spoiler maps". "We can't wait. We'll get someone else for the group"...
Also you'd maybe just want some help traversing a complex zone, but end up with every quest giver, quest drop, point of interest, etc all laid out and unignorable.
Done well, maps could be a great *addition* to the game, not just a 'cheat'. Cartography skill, magical divination, treasure map drops, etc. could lead to greater depth and encourage exploration rather than the opposite and it would all be inkeeping with the game style and lore.
Personally I can see a *lot* of point in the devs spending time on it.
Perhaps I've lost faith, but the game has to come out at some point and a bunch of "nice to haves" need to hit the cutting room floor.
Keno Monster said:Perhaps I've lost faith, but the game has to come out at some point and a bunch of "nice to haves" need to hit the cutting room floor.
Oh sure, it's not a major priority. I don't think anyone (including me) is saying "without dev-made maps the game will fail". BUT saying "No! No maps! It'll ruin the game!" as some imply, is something else. Having no mapping of any kind means third party sites will thrive and that, to me, is to the detriment of the game and missing a big opportunity for a positive aspect.
Having some kind of basic maps or mapping ability means it could be all kept in-game and could be a positive feature.
I for one would much rather use maps in game, even if very limited, rather than be tempted to spoiler sites.
But, yeah, if there's nothing a launch *shrug* it's not the end of the world. I'll be making my own and trying desperately not to view map sites and hoping they don't become some kind of de facto resource that you're gimped if you don't use.
dorotea said:Similarly I see the debates on maps as demonstrating that the great majority do not want to enter a zone, type M and see the whole zone. The great majority do not want their maps to show them where to go to do quests. The great majority to not want their maps to show them enemy movement through a magic radar. But this is oh so very far indeed from not wanting our characters to have a map showing only what they saw with their own eyes.
dorotea sums up what I also feel many of us want with maps. From an MMO perspective it is unfortunate that you can find any information you want on the Internet, but you can, and people will just pull up maps from 3rd parties on their 2nd monitor. There have been many suggestions on ways to make in-game maps fun. I look forward to what VR will do with in-game maps.
Thanks @Tigersin and @Flap for taking the time to reply to my request for feedback.
It has not been my intention to spur on the whole debat again about no map or map.
The item I came across seemed nice and what ever word you're going to use for it or in what context this picture show to the public would be up to VR for creating.
Access to my suggested 'maps' could just be inside a race only permission entrance/building. So unless you're boxing different races and have reached to point you have access to such a place to view this 'map', you won't be able to access it. (Not including people that hunt google for spoilers ofc).
It could give the races a lot more dept and story behind it. Again the requirements to be able to view this image, might require a lot of work as well.
Seeing that there is such a thing as Lore 'occupation' for players. This could get really juicy.
Anyway, thanks again.
I love the idea of cartography, though i'm not a fan of leveling this skill by looking at maps or whatever. If there was such a skill its level should be gained by finding a lot of Manuscripts of the Map Maker - lets say from 1-100 - scattered throughout the world - to prevent the players from obtaining mastery in such skill too fast - maps shouldn't be available to us as soon as we enter a zone for a first time, but rather as veteran perk. And in order to completely fill the map one have to very throughly investigate a zone (eg. each tree would obstruct a field of vision so in order to draw completely filled map of the forrest one would have to have cartography mastery AND walk from tree to tree and around them). As i'm writing it I have in mind mechanic similar to Avernum games (minus the player location marker).
If we won't have any maps thats not too bad also - player community will provide nicely drawn maps - and since I don't like changing tabs when i play, i'll just print them and have even more realistic gameplay, by simply having a map literally in my hands xP
@Perplexing89
Great post, and a lot of unique ideas there that I haven't read over the years here or rehashed to death at this point (pretty unusual honestly at this point). The only other pieces I would add to your post is other methods to obtain map scrolls - such as mob drops - An Orc Cartographer, that may have a rudimentary map drawn, with Orc Waypoints, but the caveat would be that you need to be able to read Orcish to be able to understand the words in them. Or, perhaps in a depth of a dungeon there was an old map scroll from a departed adventurer etc. that was partially torn.. etc. etc.
The other major point that I think needs to be in game if maps, especially zone or world maps are in game is there needs to be risk/reward for usage. I think the map should be similar to the old EQ spell book style in that if you open the map and are looking at it, it should take up your screen until you close it. Therefore, you'd usually only look at it in a safe location or in a group, etc. versus being able to actively stare at it without consequence.
As for selling playermade maps in game, I'm unsure on that as well as it would remove a lot of the exploration/world mystery to map an area. Perhaps in order to understand the maps you would need some sort of skill as well such as a sense heading type.
And, to Keno's point, I wouldn't be aganist a cartography skill in game, but at some point, the game has to be released and a lot of the "wants" and not "needs" ultimately may have to be cut. I think Perplexing's idea, would be a nice middleground with less legwork on the Dev's part.
I don't really understand the desire to have to tab into another window to check a map. It's not like an in-game map automatically has to come with all points of interest marked from the get go, quests tracked, your location pinged, etc.
I'd much prefer hitting M to pull up a map that is Fog-of-War'ed that I can slowly fill in over time. It doesn't have to show any extra info other than an artistic representation of the zone. Saves my neck from constantly having to look at a second monitor, saves my immersion, saves my fingers from carpal tunnel with alt-tab.
I'd prefer no maps at all, or if there must be maps, I like the idea of a Cartography skill. And reading a map should put it in front of your face, and have no "I am here" bouncing ball. As always, my thoughts go along the lines of this game claiming to want to channel the spirit of old EQ, before it was taken over and started the downward spiral.
A Cartography skill would be really cool.
Let me have a basic (no markers) in-game map I can unlock as I explore it, similar to a Fog of War system. Let that improve my Cartography skill.
Let me place markers on my maps if I want to. Don't make me have to leave the game to find things that could easily be in the game. That's just bad design. If people don't want to engage a QoL improvement like using a map, they can very easily just not use the map.
I don't think we need a mini-map/radar or big flashing quest markers, but allowing me to view and edit a basic map in-game just lets me spend more time actually playing the game instead of searching around for third party sites to find the information I need or spending my time running around a zone I'm not totally familiar with yet trying to find my group. There's no "game" in that. It's just pointless difficulty preventing me from playing the game.
Naunet said:I don't really understand the desire to have to tab into another window to check a map. It's not like an in-game map automatically has to come with all points of interest marked from the get go, quests tracked, your location pinged, etc.
I'd much prefer hitting M to pull up a map that is Fog-of-War'ed that I can slowly fill in over time. It doesn't have to show any extra info other than an artistic representation of the zone. Saves my neck from constantly having to look at a second monitor, saves my immersion, saves my fingers from carpal tunnel with alt-tab.
I don't understand why you would "have to ... check a map" at all.
Finding my way around, and keeping track of where I've been and what I've seen, is half the fun of a game like this for me. If a map shows me anything that I haven't discovered myself, it's a spoiler, and if it reveals the zone layout as I move along it provides information about current position and general compass direction, and once all the fog has cleared, I'm informed that there is no more land to discover.
There is no way to stop people from posting and downloading maps on/from the internet, but if a map is an integral part of the game interface, not using it is to cripple yourself. There's a real difference, IMO.
Edit: A crude ancient map acquired through a real effort with hints that someting in a far away place would be worth traveling to, I have no problem with. As long as it's just something I can pull out of my bag and look at from time to time... with no indication about where I am, of course. Like an old treasure map, essentially.
Chanus said:... but allowing me to view and edit a basic map in-game just lets me spend more time actually playing the game instead of searching around for third party sites to find the information I need or spending my time running around a zone I'm not totally familiar with yet trying to find my group. There's no "game" in that. It's just pointless difficulty preventing me from playing the game.
I would say that "spending my time running around a zone I'm not totally familiar with yet" is a core element of "playing the game". Not pointless at all.
Jabir said:Chanus said:... but allowing me to view and edit a basic map in-game just lets me spend more time actually playing the game instead of searching around for third party sites to find the information I need or spending my time running around a zone I'm not totally familiar with yet trying to find my group. There's no "game" in that. It's just pointless difficulty preventing me from playing the game.
I would say that "spending my time running around a zone I'm not totally familiar with yet" is a core element of "playing the game". Not pointless at all.
There's a big difference between exploring and simply being unable to find your way to a group that's waiting on you.
I am all for the former. The latter is not fun.
@Chanus:
I've been in that group finding scenario many times, and it has always been solved by telling the group that I was unfamiliar with the zone and could they send someone to pick me up?
Jabir said:@Chanus:
I've been in that group finding scenario many times, and it has always been solved by telling the group that I was unfamiliar with the zone and could they send someone to pick me up?
I've seen mixed results. But regardless, it's a burden I shouldn't have to put on my group just so people who don't like maps can ensure none of us get to have maps.
I really don't understand the crowd that insists no one gets to have things simply because they don't like them. If you don't want to use a map, don't use a map.