So I was thinking about this the other day, and let me just start by saying I never played EQ. What exactly makes an MMO "old school"? It is a term we see a lot on the forums and in interviews with the devs and on live streams of the pre-alpha testing. Now I personally first started playing MMOs in 2004 with Lineage2 which I would consider an "old school" MMORPG. But what exactly does everyone mean when they keep saying this will be an old school MMO.
In todays market most of the traditional MMOs have you sprinting to max level to focus on the end game content, its like that is the only driving force behind these games these days. The games are fairly easy to get through, in some cases people reaching max level in a few days or even hours, with a focus on the "core game play" being end game content. Well when I think of Lineage2, the best example I have of an old school game, I think of a difficult grind. PK and griefing, people stealing your raid boss. A real penilty if you die, like losing exp or dropping items that you are holding. To most people these elements seem to be what makes a game "old school" or not.
I came to realize that one of the main tenants that makes a game "old school" is exploration. Pacing. What you can do to fill the time between first and max level. I much more enjoy a game that doesn't punish you for racing to maximum level. A game where there is an emphasis to explore the whole region and unlock all its secrets. Spending time to do other things you enjoy like crafting, or exploring those old ruins. Old school doesn't mean a game is more difficult and only for the hardcore gamer which is what everyone seems to think it means. It means as more immersive experience that allows you the freedom to enjoy the game however you see fit. You can still feel like you spent your time meaningfully and feel accomplished after only a few hours of low level game play.
So I am just curious what other people think of when they hear that Pantheon is meant to have an "old school" feel to it. What exactly does that phrase mean to you?
Edit: I would just like to point out that the devs themselves have said they are trying to make a MODERN GAME with an OLD SCHOOL feel to it, and old school play style and mechanics. I am just asking what that means to you guys, the "old school" aspect
Old school MMOs made you wait around a lot. I once read the entire Lord of the Rings series while camping for different pieces of my epics in EQ.
gamexilor1 said:Old school MMOs made you wait around a lot. I once read the entire Lord of the Rings series while camping for different pieces of my epics in EQ.
There is ALOT more to it than just "waiting around".
There are actual penalties for making mistakes. You have to work for things. You're not guided through "on rails". There is no "easy path" to max level. There is the actual SOCIAL aspect of the game.
There's alot more, but that will suffice for now.
gamexilor1 said: @Kalok - Sure there was the social aspect of playing a graphical MUD with thousands of other people per server...but you have to admit, there was a LOT of waiting around.
I never said that there wasn't alot of waiting around. That waiting around didn't make it "old school".
Old school can probably mean a lot of different things and I actually don't consider Pantheon a old school MMO its just taking some ideas from older games. For me MMO's branched to several different paths leaving the type I liked forgotten and Pantheon is finally the next step in the path that I want to see. It just seems old school because MMO's have strayed so far from their origins, but this a brand new game with new ideas it is not just a remake of a old game.
Damacon said:Old school can probably mean a lot of different things and I actually don't consider Pantheon a old school MMO its just taking some ideas from older games. For me MMO's branched to several different paths leaving the type I liked forgotten and Pantheon is finally the next step in the path that I want to see. It just seems old school because MMO's have strayed so far from their origins, but this a brand new game with new ideas it is not just a remake of a old game.
Nobody said anything about a "remake of an old game" either.
Kalok said:Nobody said anything about a "remake of an old game" either.
Your right I should of said a remake of an old game with a new title and I do think thats a lot of what is implied by saying a game is old school. I think of the trend of indie games nowadays that are coming out with pixel graphics those games would be considered old school because they capture everything about those old games with some new twists. Which Pantheon is doing but not enough to call it old school its more of the next evolution of those old MMOs instead of a game that is trying to be those old games.
Damacon said:Kalok said:Nobody said anything about a "remake of an old game" either.
Your right I should of said a remake of an old game with a new title and I do think thats a lot of what is implied by saying a game is old school. I think of the trend of indie games nowadays that are coming out with pixel graphics those games would be considered old school because they capture everything about those old games with some new twists. Which Pantheon is doing but not enough to call it old school its more of the next evolution of those old MMOs instead of a game that is trying to be those old games.
I disagree. By "old school", both the developers, based on what they have said, and most of us who actually played the "old school" MMOs, it means that it has the "feel" of the "old school" games by not holding your hand or giving you linear progression paths and having a death penalty that stings and not being able to solo the content from beginning to end.... And on and on and on.
"Old school" in the case of Pantheon is a "play style". Will there also be new mechanics and what-not? Yes, of course there will. But that doesn't take away from what they are trying to accomplish wiith the "old school" feel. It may even enhance it.
Kalok said:I disagree. By "old school", both the developers, based on what they have said, and most of us who actually played the "old school" MMOs, it means that it has the "feel" of the "old school" games by not holding your hand or giving you linear progression paths and having a death penalty that stings and not being able to solo the content from beginning to end.... And on and on and on.
"Old school" in the case of Pantheon is a "play style". Will there also be new mechanics and what-not? Yes, of course there will. But that doesn't take away from what they are trying to accomplish wiith the "old school" feel. It may even enhance it.
Yeah the "play style" might be considered old school to a lot of people maybe even the developers but I look at it differently. Only one other game was close to the original style of Everquest which was FFXI so I just find it hard to call a style old school when there has only been two games like it. The rest of the games went right from Everquest up the World of Warcraft solo quest based stylle MMO or left the solo based sand box pvp type mmo like Star Wars Galaxy. So to only have like 2 group based MMOs ever and call it old school just seems a little out of place its more of like finally taking the next step in a style of MMO that was lost. I also realize that the solo based sand box pvp MMO might of come first but I don't like those games so let me think Everquest is the center haha.
Kalok said:gamexilor1 said:Old school MMOs made you wait around a lot. I once read the entire Lord of the Rings series while camping for different pieces of my epics in EQ.
There is ALOT more to it than just "waiting around".
There are actual penalties for making mistakes. You have to work for things. You're not guided through "on rails". There is no "easy path" to max level. There is the actual SOCIAL aspect of the game.
There's alot more, but that will suffice for now.
Yes the social aspect was one I was thinking about too. You used to want to group up so that you could take on the more challenging content, even if it was lower level first dungeon type stuff, you still wanted people you could play with to do that stuff. And because things did take longer to do you were able to forge a stronger relationship with someone.
I loved the examlpe they gave of the lower level players being down in the court yard looking up at the higher level players killing the higher level mobs up on the ramparts above them and basically aspiring to want to be up there.
As you can see, Old School, means a lot of different things to different people. lol And nobody is incorrect...everybody just has different remembrances of games lost to time.
For me, story has always been a big part. Immersion is a big meaningful word for me. Talking to each NPC...reading the books on shelves, because you needed to in order to understand what you were doing and where to go. But then games evolved with premade maps, and destination icons, and then these wisps of light...Whats the point of that? Thats just a very pretty interactive story book. No, I want the story, the immersion and the adventure of something found, understood, and then conquered. Thats what Old School RPG's used to be
When you talk MMORPG's, then OldSchool takes on a few different things for me. Lets talk first about crafting, which is thoughtless and meaningless in most games these days. Now EQ2 had a crafting system that was loved...and hated lol. Its first itteration was difficult and not always a guarantee. There were stability spells, durability spells , counter spells to a mishaps in the crafting process. And this was just for a piece of the total combine...a hilt maybe. Yet it still required another profession for application of a resin maybe or some other required ingredient. Many cried it was a time sync. However there many others who formed a community of crafters, on every server, who worked together, dealed with one another and created a living breathing community and economy. True immersion. People who worked together, knew one another whether they were guilded, friends or just knew them from the server.
Lets talk about leveling. There will always be those who race to max level...whatever the percentage of xp gain is. But to those of us who join a MMORPG to immerse, to explore and meet others to do the same. We dont want to outlevel the beginning area before we have even begun to explore it. We want what we loot, at any level group, to have meaning, to be hard fought for. Games today make almost everything you loot or fight for vendor fodder until you reach endgame. Hence the masses running around like chickens without a head yelling at gamers like myself - "OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING...LETS GO!" , me - "But ....I'm reading about this guys lost dog who ate his families magic pendant...".
And I guess this last one goes hand in hand with the leveling. This genre used to be about community. Meeting and joining with others to tackle difficult content and the world at large. In my humble opinion that has been lost. Getting an Epic weapon meant you needed friends and it wasnt in one dungeon run. Want to speak like a Dragon? Gather your guildies...its a long and bumby ride through fire and ice. But man when you finish....what an awsome feeling it was.
I have failed year after year to recapture those days in other games....I havent not found it yet...that was old school. Thats why I am here...waiting patiently
All old school means (to me) is less quality of life mechanics and more time consuming mechanics. Theres nothing more or less difficult about old school vs new school, it's just more time consuming.
The overall game wont change. Hardcore players will level twice as fast as average players and 4x as fast as a casual player. This is the case no matter if it takes 3 days or 3 months to level.
People only consider old school more difficult because when they played old school games they were less experienced. Nothing really changes at the end of the day. The players that are good at wow and rift will be good at pantheon. The players that were bad at eq and wow will be bad at pantheon.
Honestly, we are trying to move away from the title "Old School", it has stuck to Pantheon but nothing about Pantheon is "Old" we are bringing Pantheon into the modern digital age and using technology that wasn't even around back in the "Old School" days and by associating Pantheon with "Old School" it can turn a lot of people away from our game before they even lay eyes on it properly as they associate it with dull graphics, bad mechanics or being something else entirely that they picture from a game that may have given them a bad experience.
So the further we can distance ourselves from the words "Old School" the better :)
Kilsin said:Honestly, we are trying to move away from the title "Old School", it has stuck to Pantheon but nothing about Pantheon is "Old" we are bringing Pantheon into the modern digital age and using technology that wasn't even around back in the "Old School" days and by associating Pantheon with "Old School" it can turn a lot of people away from our game before they even lay eyes on it properly as they associate it with dull graphics, bad mechanics or being something else entirely that they picture from a game that may have given them a bad experience.
So the further we can distance ourselves from the words "Old School" the better :)
That's an awfully black and white stance that clearly many many of the core supporters of the game disagree with.
I think that may be a mistake Kilsin. New School and New Age MMOs suck, that's pretty much the consensus by everyone. WoW copycats and easy solo oriented games are the new normal and NOBODY wants to see more of those. Old School is what everyone wants. Now, you're right that not every aspect of old school MMOs is attractive to all people, but almost nothing is attractive about modern MMOs outside of pretty graphics. I think being known as the "Old School" MMO is net positive for your marketing campaign. Whenever it actually starts that is. People who haven't tried EQ, will want to see what the fuss is about. Challenge seekers will naturally be drawn to the idea that this is a "difficult" MMO. I think the more you embrace the challenge and embrace the EQ1 concepts, the more success you will find. Trying to differentiate yourself from EQ1, you're just going to end up another modern MMO and people won't even give it a try. The only way you probably succeed is word of mouth. The thing that has all of us excited and the haters riled up is that this is finally the spiritual successor to EQ1. You take that away, you try and paint Pantheon as a modern MMO, than nobody is talking about Pantheon. It's just another Elyria or Ashes.
You have to know where your bread is buttered, whether you guys like it or not. Embrace "Old School". What that actually means is EQ1. And what EQ1 means is group centric combat centered around challenge and strategy with high risks and high rewards. And yes, time sinks, and the requirement of severe time investment. You guys run from that thinking it will scare people off. It won't. Sell the game as a game to play for years making incremental progress with your friends. People want to spend a massive amount of time in something fun. Your target audience is anyone in the 25+ age bracket, and none of those people are going to view "Old School" as a negative. The 25 and under crowd will, but outside those that love slower combat and group based challenge, you're never going to reel in the Battle Royale/Action MMO generation. And those would be the ones to object to Old School terminology.
Anyway, reject the "Old School" marketing approach to your own peril. It's why we are all here. No other reason. And it's the primary reason this game even matters to people at this point in time.
Kilsin said:Honestly, we are trying to move away from the title "Old School", it has stuck to Pantheon but nothing about Pantheon is "Old" we are bringing Pantheon into the modern digital age and using technology that wasn't even around back in the "Old School" days and by associating Pantheon with "Old School" it can turn a lot of people away from our game before they even lay eyes on it properly as they associate it with dull graphics, bad mechanics or being something else entirely that they picture from a game that may have given them a bad experience.
So the further we can distance ourselves from the words "Old School" the better :)
Yep I agree, there is a different between taking a few ideas from a old game and making a old school game. You would not call Zelda Breath of Wild old school because it uses some of the same ideas from the first couple Zelda games. I loved Everquest but there is a lot of things from it that I just think are outdated thinking and wouldn't even work nowadays. One of them they actually still are going to do which is making pretty much all the items sellable, this is going to ruin the game everything is going to be farmed for cash not for people who actually need it. Even Everquest was pretty much that way and it had only a small percentage of the people who are going to be playing this game. I would at least make everything from bosses unique so you can't have more than one on you at a time and even that can be exploited but it would at least help a little.
@Mathir Alot of what you are saying is personal perspective.
Eq1 was and still is a extreamly broken game , with poor itemization . In fact it was so broken there was a boycott on expansions until content was fixed.
That does not make a challenging game, in fact most the encounters until OOW are litterly tank and spank. What was hard , was it was cutting edge and new with the addition of the general population did not understand itemization and mechanics. All these things are taken for granted because we understand the concepts now.
Pantheon needs to be it's own game , also keep in mind eq players might end up being a much smaller portion of the player base in Pantheon then most people think.
I do know there will be players from a multiple games coming here and to behonest , FF was 10x harder then EQ.
I know for a fact there will be EQ1 EQ2 Rift FF and a few other mmo players that will be playing Pantheon. So to just try and cater to one as if it was some god send is absurd in the upmost.
Time sinks and requirements of severe time investment is not challenging , there simply time based gates and or timesinks ... nothing more or less. There is no challenge killing place holder 52.
You might want to rethink who the target demographic is , if you are only aimming at eq1 players ... look at the state of eq1 .. besides TLP 90 % of the servers are dead. In fact without a merc , two - 6 boxing iso boxer and showeq a majority of the current eq population will be in for a rude awaking when there forced to perform without the above crutch.
Trying to make Pantheon anything but Pantheon , or trying to "copy" some long lost glory does not work for the long haul.
If this game is to be a success , it needs to have it's own unique vision.