Title says it. With data-mining being a thing is it possible to really hide things in pantheon? I have been playing EQ on a private server again and was trying to kill this regis the revenant guy. He had an intersting spawn mechanic where you had to kill a bunch of undead to spawn a named undead which when killed will spawn regis. I'm sure years agl this took some time to figure out. Will odd requirments to spawn things exist in pantheon?
I always figure compiling all that data and figuring it out so that others do not have to, was some peoples joy in the game. In EQ I played a paladin and using lay hands to save someone might have been ruining there perfect fight but for me it was the reason I picked a paladin.
zendrel said:Title says it. With data-mining being a thing is it possible to really hide things in pantheon? I have been playing EQ on a private server again and was trying to kill this regis the revenant guy. He had an intersting spawn mechanic where you had to kill a bunch of undead to spawn a named undead which when killed will spawn regis. I'm sure years agl this took some time to figure out. Will odd requirments to spawn things exist in pantheon?
What do you mean by data minining in this case? Do you mean data mining from the Pantheon servers or do you mean data mining from various Internet web sites. The reason I ask is that the former could be difficult depending on how they handle the sata streams to the client from the server.
Kalok said:What do you mean by data minining in this case? Do you mean data mining from the Pantheon servers or do you mean data mining from various Internet web sites. The reason I ask is that the former could be difficult depending on how they handle the sata streams to the client from the server.
Basically once a patch is downloaded people go through the files on their local PC to find all the items, stats, monsters, etc. All of that is stored locally on your PC so typically when a new patch is downloaded in a MMO the information about items no one has yet is pulled directly from these files and posted on the sites.
I can see data like that being kept from clients until it's discovered in game, then streamed to those clients that need it. Once it's been discovered in this way, the data can be patched into client files in the usual way (e.g. background downloading). I don't know if it's been done in the past, or how feasible it would be, but certainly possible
EppE said:Kalok said:What do you mean by data minining in this case? Do you mean data mining from the Pantheon servers or do you mean data mining from various Internet web sites. The reason I ask is that the former could be difficult depending on how they handle the sata streams to the client from the server.
Basically once a patch is downloaded people go through the files on their local PC to find all the items, stats, monsters, etc. All of that is stored locally on your PC so typically when a new patch is downloaded in a MMO the information about items no one has yet is pulled directly from these files and posted on the sites.
You're PRESUMING that all of that is stored locally. You'te also presuming that it isn't encrypted in some form or another. I'm not saying that it will be impossible, we both know that would be silly. That doesn't mean that it will be easy to do either.
dorotea said:I agree. Some people enjoy collecting and posting the data - some people hate puzzles. The former is a Godsend to the latter.
Those that want no help have an easy answer - do not seach for information on-line.
I think sometimes we fall into the trap of expecting everyone to be as strong in their convictions as we might be.
What I've learned over the years is that many people enjoy discovering things on their own, but they don't like feeling like they're falling behind other players. So, in a situation where they're facing a complex quest or spawn trigger, they'll try to figure it out themselves first. However, if they see other people "breezing through it" by using a guide or video or whatnot, their frustration with feeling like they're behind others will eventually cause them to go look as well. They'll give up on following their ideals because they feel like no one else appreciates what they do anyway.
I'm not saying that every person is like that, but a great many people are.
So the challenge for Pantheon, and any other game that wants to reward players for discovering the world on their own, is to find ways to prevent players from looking behind the curtain, or at least to insure that when players do, they don't see *everything* that actually matters.
Data mining is kind of a dick move to the developers of a game, anyone who makes a game wants you to be able to expierence it fully so finding out all the information before anyone has even done it is crappy.But I want to make a point that I don't really have a problem with guides but data mining sounds like getting the information before actually experiencing the game both can ruin a game for people though.
Its simple to say don't look for them but in a online game its almost impossible to hide from them completely and especially one that promotes grouping with other people. Its become almost human nature for most people to try and speed through everything to the point of despising anyone who is slowing them down. Do you really think people who have done something or know how to do something are going to let people discover and enjoy things at their own pace if you join random groups? You would almost have to try and join a group/guild of people who dedicated to playing the game without spoiling anything for anyone even in the future which is pretty unlikely.
I hope they find a way to stop it from happening. If you enjoy playing MMOs in a competitive environment, it's almost a requirement to research and know as much as your competition. I'd prefer to struggle and learn things on my own, but there's zero chance of that happening if the information is put out on the internet.
@mathir
Even if the information is acquired organically, it will be out there. So saying there can be no informational websites is somewhat impossible.
Additionally fan sites can help elevate a game dramatically by providing tools and information that some users might find necessary.
Heh. Datamining went so far, it's been decades for some other MMO to open a Patch Test Server where big guilds train on bosses to be ready for the release day race. It's cheaper in testers anyway.
I think a bit of magic and mistery is really great for a MMO. When people are spoiler of everything before even trying, they will complain before even trying, and hack the fun out of it for themselves.
MauvaisOeil said:Heh. Datamining went so far, it's been decades for some other MMO to open a Patch Test Server where big guilds train on bosses to be ready for the release day race. It's cheaper in testers anyway.
I think a bit of magic and mistery is really great for a MMO. When people are spoiler of everything before even trying, they will complain before even trying, and hack the fun out of it for themselves.
Not decades. less than a decade.
Vanguard, which was originally created by Brad, my guild BotS was 'invited' to the test server for such events. Devs had zero ways of actually testing a Raid mob themselves, and relied on the help mightily.
And frankly nobody wanted to do it. You would spend many hours and gained nothing. What we tested did not reflect end game raid mobs. They tested our abilities against their creations.
But no data-mining was ever done by players, in fact if anything the Devs monitored our performance and ended up nerfing classes after such events. I stopped participating after I got the Ranger class nerfed.
EppE said:Kalok said:What do you mean by data minining in this case? Do you mean data mining from the Pantheon servers or do you mean data mining from various Internet web sites. The reason I ask is that the former could be difficult depending on how they handle the sata streams to the client from the server.
Basically once a patch is downloaded people go through the files on their local PC to find all the items, stats, monsters, etc. All of that is stored locally on your PC so typically when a new patch is downloaded in a MMO the information about items no one has yet is pulled directly from these files and posted on the sites.
lol none of that will be stored locally. You think they'd give local acceess to mobs and items? That sort of data will require packet sniffing.
A lot of this is going to be dictated by what Unity can do as an MMO platform. I have not looked into much about how the client vs server structure works.
For data security it would be better if only image files were loaded onto the players machines and even those should be encrypted. All of the item data would be stored server side. The down side to this is that none of the actual game computation could be shared with the PCs PCs (is that a meme?) only the rendering on call.
I know SWG had all of their items have a unique item identifier as all items had durability and a crafter. All that data had to be stored server side and not client side. Granted that SWG was on a completely different platform but at the time it was a very system demanding game. I also don't know if SWG ever broke 300k subscribers so the total load may have been low.
Come to think if it though I wonder if someone can write some cool back end where all the client PCs share out a portion of their CPU time to the server in addition to the time needed to operate the graphics. The CPU time could be simple cloud based computations that have nothing to do with the person playing but help take the load off the servers. Every client that connects both consumes server time and provides some CPU resources.
Other than keeping the raw data off of players computers only dynamic content can really make data sight irrelevant. Even then it would be best if the in game clues were good enough that you didn't need a data site or a PHD in Pantheon Historical and Contemporary studies to know what was being referenced.
Trasak said: A lot of this is going to be dictated by what Unity can do as an MMO platform. I have not looked into much about how the client vs server structure works.For data security it would be better if only image files were loaded onto the players machines and even those should be encrypted. All of the item data would be stored server side. ...
Would be nice, yet... you still need it in the clear, at some point, on the client, for human consumption. Encryption in transit is the only form of encryption that really matters, for MMO's, as human eyes and ears are involved as part of at least one end point. I mean, go ahead and encrypt all your other data structures on the client, but they'll still be readable eventually, so you're just adding latency to no purpose. Remember, 100ms round-trip-time for those folks in Alaska and Florida. Every time you have to do a server side check, that's your minimum delay. Add in server and client side processing, plus asynchronous/unexpected concurrent client delays, and as you know, every server side check can lead to human-detectable delay. Trying to do that multiple times per second will lead to a very bad time. Every client side anticipatory or predictive compensation mechanism allows for more exploitve options, too. "What? I didn't glitch through that wall.. it was lag!"
In any case, given this exists (and works awesomely), fear not, the "normal" Unity structures are well known. :) Yes, I'm aware steps can be taken to prevent some shady things.
However, every piece of data that is required to play the game, and shown to the player normally, yet displayed in a different way, perhaps as a tactical display, offers superior situational awareness, at the very least.
And, at the very least, this will always be possible, regardless of the graphics engine used, as long as the client is on a PC.
Legend has it, there are still items in the world of Everquest waiting to be discovered for the first time.
Im not really concerned about this , more of a showeq style program being developed if it is not stored server side or encrypted.
Trasak said:
A lot of this is going to be dictated by what Unity can do as an MMO platform. I have not looked into much about how the client vs server structure works.
I don't think this is an accurate take. Unity isn't going to stop or disallow any developer from not sending/storing data to the client. There's data in transit and data at rest. In the end this boils down to a bunch of json being passed around. They aren't going to attach a table of data to a mob to a path to a zone that's going to include all of its stats and loot tables and spawn points, etc. That isn't a limitation of any engine, that's what the devleopers send or don't send, store or don't store. It's their database, it's their back end, it's their client. In other words, there's no way in hell data like that will be stored client side. The data at rest on the client will be static things like image and audio assets, and zones themselves as they are way too big to transact on demand. But a few lines of text between server and client that communciate player and mob HP/damage/pathing/etc on demand is easy enough to do if they limit the cruft.
Beefcake said:If you want to discover things, simply don’t look at what other people post.
That's not what he's talking about though. He's talking about people going through the locally stored assets to find things out about the game. This could then potentially be used as an exploit, whether an actual hack, or just giving indivduals access to information they "should" only be able to obtain via playing the game.
Anyone remember the original EQ "tutorial"? You could simply rename or replace any other zone file and run around offline in any zone you wanted. That might be something which is potentially exposed, but I'd venture it won't be as easy to access, and certainly will not contain any kind of actual world data. It didn't in 1999, so I think the concern today is a bit...silly.
Keno Monster said: ... That isn't a limitation of any engine, that's what the devleopers send or don't send, store or don't store. It's their database, it's their back end, it's their client. In other words, there's no way in hell data like that will be stored client side. The data at rest on the client will be static things like image and audio assets, and zones themselves as they are way too big to transact on demand. But a few lines of text between server and client that communciate player and mob HP/damage/pathing/etc on demand is easy enough to do if they limit the cruft. ...
All true, and yet... every MMO client I've ever seen disassembled or memory scanned has more information than what is necessary. Mostly to avoid round trip latency for simple things. Especially things like icons, models, pictures, dialogue, combat text, faction text, and items. Those lines and data aren't streamed live from the server, and likely never will be, you just place the confirmed damage values from the server in the output strings that already exist on the client. The bare minimum data, in particular, in a game that has tracking, is exactly how and why ShowEQ works so well today. In order for Tracking to work, you need to give the Ranger access to more data than they can currently see via LoS.
Even without tracking, there is a radius/sphere/cylinder of data you need to send in order to have the client rendering mob actions that aren't visible in LoS, necessarily, to the player. If travel speed is a certain number of m/s, then you have to have that radius be large enough, especially in outdoor zones, to prevent pop-in of mobs. With Bards/SoW even more so.
In some recent cases (Shroud, PFO) what the player had was both the client & server processes, and all they did was check back with the remote auth server for transactions involving other players. It was... very exploitable, and players took advantage. It gave the impression of no latency, though, until other players were involved. Convenient, right? Things like XP, loot, gold, item counts, all that? Modifiable. And initially? Client side. In fact, they hesitated, in both cases, for MONTHS, to transfer that auth load to the servers. Now, you could argue "different devs, that'll never happen" but that's exactly what pre-persistence customers said about the Paizo and Portalarium devs. In this case, it seems more likely Visionary Realms wouldn't make those mistakes, because at least some of them lived through ShowEQ. Hopefully. :)
Well, regardless, all of us should make sure these concerns stay and front and center throughout the beta process. If they do this poorly, game is going to be ruined by those that exploit. They have to prevent "Show Pantheon" from happening. Was WoW able to prevent this? If so, do we know how?
No, I don't think they were. There are several bots for WoW that have varying levels of success, depending on what features you want to use/abuse.
They (Blizzard) do scan the parent and children processes of the client, but that's not enough to stop injection from a more privileged process. I don't know if any of the current batch of bots/cheats/hacks for WoW include a tactical top down map view like ShowEQ, but it should be possible. I mean.. it's the same data presented in the same way as any other 3D environment. Character in the middle, mobs all around. Not much more to it than that.