Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Classic Pantheon

    • 52 posts
    December 13, 2018 5:32 PM PST

    With rabid nostalgia currently seeming to be taking over the legions of first and second generation MMO players these days, is any thought being put into preserving and maintaining a classic version of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen?  With the introduction of progression servers attempting to provide the experience of the classic version of Everquest and the tremendous effort that Blizzard has put into producing a classic version of WoW, would it be worth it to put the effort in now to actively archive a classic version of Pantheon and making compatibility adjustments over the years rather than waiting until nostalgia junkies demand it and the effort becomes too great to even attempt?

    • 752 posts
    December 13, 2018 5:37 PM PST

    With the game still in development this is way too early to even worry about. If the game is implemented with active dynamic content this is increasingly harder to accomplish as this content would be coded on the fly as events are triggered.

    Also, PRF is being designed in the classic MMO style to attract those that crave that original experience that current games are attemping to capture. Why do you think those games ARE attempting to regain the old gaming audience??


    This post was edited by kreed99 at December 13, 2018 5:42 PM PST
    • 1247 posts
    December 13, 2018 5:49 PM PST

    What matters imo is Visionary Realms is making the game they really want to make (and that most of us truly want). What’s different this time is they don’t have a large entity like SOE dictating the direction of the game etc. Like had happened to Verant under SOE. No one is watching over their shoulder this time, so I don’t see the nostalgia arising to the extent it has with other games. Interesting thread/thoughts though. 


    This post was edited by Syrif at December 13, 2018 5:57 PM PST
    • 1120 posts
    December 13, 2018 5:57 PM PST

    Yea. The reason people clamor for "classic" servers and "progression" servers is because the current iteration of the game they love is nothing like the originals.   Most people agree that a game like eq was great up to and including velious (alot will go as far to say luclin is as well).   The same with WoW.  Most if not all players agree that classic and TBC are where the game shines.  If VR is able to stick to what the claim they want to do. And make a robust game without giving into to the forum warriors and casuals that argue for change, you should never need a classic server.

    • 74 posts
    December 13, 2018 6:11 PM PST

    Porygon said:

    Yea. The reason people clamor for "classic" servers and "progression" servers is because the current iteration of the game they love is nothing like the originals.   Most people agree that a game like eq was great up to and including velious (alot will go as far to say luclin is as well).   The same with WoW.  Most if not all players agree that classic and TBC are where the game shines.  If VR is able to stick to what the claim they want to do. And make a robust game without giving into to the forum warriors and casuals that argue for change, you should never need a classic server.

     

    This is correct. The problem arises when the Company, in this case VR, caves in on trying to nerf ealier content to allow new players to catch up to their friends that had already been in game for years. Why would you do that??? I had to play Lineage 2 for 8 months to reach max level. Why should it be any different 3 years down the road. Keep it real people

     

    Cheers

    • 31 posts
    December 14, 2018 3:47 AM PST

    Porygon said:

    Yea. The reason people clamor for "classic" servers and "progression" servers is because the current iteration of the game they love is nothing like the originals.   Most people agree that a game like eq was great up to and including velious (alot will go as far to say luclin is as well).   The same with WoW.  Most if not all players agree that classic and TBC are where the game shines.  If VR is able to stick to what the claim they want to do. And make a robust game without giving into to the forum warriors and casuals that argue for change, you should never need a classic server.

     

    I agree 100% On EQ1, was at it's best with the Velious expansion and Luclin was ok but down hill after that.

    My best gaming experiences were with EQ upto and including Luclin. After that SOE tried to appeal to to broad of a market and ended up ruining it for all.

    There are enough games out there for the people that want instant gratification and don't want to work / learn the game.

    I still have fond memories of doing my druid epic quest and finally completing it. Of finishing my first Coldain Prayer Shawl. Of the first time in a new land or new dungeon.

    Of getting killed by a new mob then figuring a way to beat it. Of killing a named many times hoping to get a rare drop and then finally getting it. I liked that all the good drops couldn't be traded, you had to be there and loot the item.

     

    This is what i'm hoping for from Pantheon.

     

    Geea.

    • 1303 posts
    December 14, 2018 7:15 AM PST

    I don't think your definition of "classic" encompasses everything that should be considered. 

    Yes, it seems like at some point having a "classic" server stood up would be a good thing, but it would be counterproductive to actually go back to the base code of the game as it was at original release. Over time, content and gameplay arent the only things that change. There are also tons of new tools, bug fixes, and most importantly security measures that are implimented as a game matures. It would be irresponsible to roll back all of these things to whatever the code was originally. 

    That being the case, it's a necessary evil to create a future classic server that incorporates all the new code with the old content. 

     


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at December 14, 2018 7:20 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 14, 2018 7:23 AM PST

    ((this is way too early to even worry about.))

    True - but after release may be too late to worry about it.

    If VR can cheaply and easily store the code together with all documentation needed for developers to work with it - and then repeat this process every three or six months - it will let them do what Blizzard had to spend significant resources to accomplish and SSG couldn't do at all for LOTRO.

    Those who feel that Pantheon will never need this because the game will not evolve that far from its origins are pessimists. All games evolve and I think it would be exceedingly good not bad if Pantheon survives long enough to evolve that much. 

    Useless now. Useless at release. Useless a year after release. Maybe a nice money maker in 5-10 years. Not worth a lot of time and effort but maybe worth a little time and effort.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at December 14, 2018 7:23 AM PST
    • 1303 posts
    December 14, 2018 7:37 AM PST

    Blizzard's resource requirements for classic WoW had nothing to do with availability of the old code. They had it. They just had to convert it based on the evolution of the later code. To a great degree it was related to the fact that the databases that store and operate the servers had gone through dramatic changes over time to address performance and security constraints.  They had to reformat all the old data from the old content to fit into the new database format. 

    • 1120 posts
    December 14, 2018 12:29 PM PST

    Also, blizzard strategically announced plans to release "classic" once the sub numbers started dwindling.  Blizzard is a massive company. With massive resources.  They could have done this at anytime.  They waited until it was strategically effective to do it, nothing less.

    • 633 posts
    December 14, 2018 2:40 PM PST

    Modern source control systems and best practices for software development will allow them to easily produce the code for any version they wish at any point in time.  So this is likely just something that is automatic now-a-days.

    • 1303 posts
    December 14, 2018 2:55 PM PST

    It's not automatic. As was already said, it might be possible to roll back to a particular release version. But it's highly unlikely that doing so would be smart. 

    • 52 posts
    December 14, 2018 5:13 PM PST

    ...


    This post was edited by gamexilor1 at December 14, 2018 6:13 PM PST
    • 52 posts
    December 14, 2018 5:35 PM PST

    kreed99 said:

    With the game still in development this is way too early to even worry about. If the game is implemented with active dynamic content this is increasingly harder to accomplish as this content would be coded on the fly as events are triggered.

    Also, PRF is being designed in the classic MMO style to attract those that crave that original experience that current games are attemping to capture. Why do you think those games ARE attempting to regain the old gaming audience??

    I couldn't disagree with you more.  The most advantageous and time effective way to approach developing a software archival system like this would've been during the initial planning stages of the game and to develop it alongside the game.  This method probably would've required one developer working a few hours per month throughout the inital development phase of the game.  The second most time effective way to approach such a suite of tools would be to start sometime in the middle of development or close to release, which is where we're at now.  This method would probably require a small team of maybe 3 - 4 developers working fulltime up through release and then probably a few months after release.  The worst possible way to approach creating a classic version of the game is 10 years after release, as both Daybreak and Blizzard have realized, and then be forced to commit an entire team of 30+ developers for 2+ years to work out all the unforeseen bugs and compatibility issues.

    Also, developing a game in the classic MMO style will not make Pantheon any more immune to nostalgia 10 years from now, if it's successful enough to make it that long, than current popular MMOs.  Every little change, advancment, and expansion made to the game over time will render the classic version of the game more and more obselete, creating the growing nostalgia to play the original again without all of the added dungeons, equipment, new areas, etc...

    No one can predict what MMO gaming will look like 10 years from now, hence the wisdom of creating an archival tool early on in development that allows for constant maintenance of the classic version of the game with as little effort as possible over time.


    This post was edited by gamexilor1 at December 14, 2018 5:44 PM PST
    • 52 posts
    December 14, 2018 5:38 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    ((this is way too early to even worry about.))

    True - but after release may be too late to worry about it.

    If VR can cheaply and easily store the code together with all documentation needed for developers to work with it - and then repeat this process every three or six months - it will let them do what Blizzard had to spend significant resources to accomplish and SSG couldn't do at all for LOTRO.

    Those who feel that Pantheon will never need this because the game will not evolve that far from its origins are pessimists. All games evolve and I think it would be exceedingly good not bad if Pantheon survives long enough to evolve that much. 

    Useless now. Useless at release. Useless a year after release. Maybe a nice money maker in 5-10 years. Not worth a lot of time and effort but maybe worth a little time and effort.

     

     

    100% agree!

    • 752 posts
    December 14, 2018 5:48 PM PST

    While i see your point. Why would a game company that is trying to recreate that classic experience do that? Yes, eventually the game will change - Thats a given. My concern is that by making THAT a priority you then end up making 8 games in tandem. How about this.....Lets get the game developed to beta or release and then worry about keeping the original release integrity. They havent even messed around with PVP settings yet so i figure once the game is dialed in for that we can call it a solid original and someone can save the master copy for possible nostalgia use later. This is like putting the cart before the horse. All it takes is someone creating a backup build for possible future uses. This wasnt planned for before because it wasnt an issue back in the beginnings of MMO’s. Who would have thought to save the original of EQ back then??? Nobody.

     

     

    After reading more info i agree that an archival tool is important, and i am not a game dev (obviously) so i dont know exactly what steps are being taken to preserve integrity. But i figure any good game dev would keep backup builds incase of serious coding issues. I would have backups upon backups and i would keep an original release build and backups before and after each expansion release - If i was a game dev. The only reason not to would be redundancy. And now that there is a “market” for original integrity then yes keep an original build available. But ya the game is still in active development, i am sure they have a bunch of archival builds. It really comes down to just simply getting the game to release status and then create that pinnacle origin build and archive it somewhere. I get it  


    This post was edited by kreed99 at December 14, 2018 6:20 PM PST
    • 245 posts
    December 14, 2018 5:51 PM PST
    Or they could just create a game that is always classic because it doesn’t include any fast catch up ideas. The only evolution over time are simple quality of life mechanics.
    With a small development team and being behind on their original pacing plans, there’s no need to unnecessarily waste resources on planning 10 years ahead to have a classic client for a game that isn’t even released with active players yet.

    Counting your chickens before they’ve hatched.
    • 1399 posts
    December 14, 2018 9:56 PM PST
    • 313 posts
    December 15, 2018 5:39 AM PST

    Zorkon said:

    Brad's thoughts on this via. Kilsin.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5192/any-thought-to-a-classic-server-years-from-now

     

     

    That's fantastic.  We Asheron's Call players were told that Turbine was going to work on a way for players to set up private servers a year or two before Warner Bros. shut them down.  They never got around to finishing their work on it.  Groups are working on emulators, but the state of the game would have been 100x better if Turbine had delivered on official support for private servers.  I don't blame the AC devs though.  They gave it their all, but the corporate overlords at WB didn't give a **** and wouldn't consider selling the game off to Standing Stone Games (who took over LOTRO/DDO) (hearsay).  It's a very frustrating situation.  WB surely have 0 intention of every doing anything with the Asheron's Call IP.  

     

    Although I'm no expert, I think Pantheon using cloud servers for the game would make it easier to set up a classic server at some point in time.  

    • 643 posts
    December 15, 2018 6:52 AM PST

    This is a sarcastic joke, right?

     

    The game isn't even in Alpha yet and we are asking about classic progression servers?

     

    I think the wait is melting our brains

     

     

    • 3852 posts
    December 15, 2018 8:19 AM PST

    The time to preserve code and manuals is at release not 5 years later. 

    But you are right about the wait melting our brains.

    • 1120 posts
    December 15, 2018 9:46 AM PST

    I think also, given that before this, there most likely was not any thought regarding preserving data for a classic server, since they are relatively new.  Designers will probably look at this differently in terms of how they store old data and the like.

    Like if Blizzard had any idea that they were going to do a classic server. They would have kept the information more so than they did.  You know?

    I'm sure this is not going to be an issue with the knowledge companies have today.

    • 52 posts
    December 15, 2018 12:50 PM PST

    Zorkon said:

    Brad's thoughts on this via. Kilsin.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5192/any-thought-to-a-classic-server-years-from-now

     

     

    And with that, I concede this topic as already been thrown around by the devs, and as usual VR has an excitingly creative outlook on it.  Great find Zorkon!


    This post was edited by gamexilor1 at December 15, 2018 12:51 PM PST
    • 228 posts
    December 17, 2018 6:02 AM PST

    Caffeineinjected said:

    This is correct. The problem arises when the Company, in this case VR, caves in on trying to nerf ealier content to allow new players to catch up to their friends that had already been in game for years. Why would you do that??? I had to play Lineage 2 for 8 months to reach max level. Why should it be any different 3 years down the road. Keep it real people

    I totally agree, in principle, but you cannot ignore that joining a 3-year-old MMO can be a lonely experience because almost everybody else is at max level. A quick fix is to make it relatively easy to catch up. A good fix would be to somehow make it fun and rewarding enough for the vets to roll alts over and over again. How? I have no idea.

    • 1399 posts
    December 17, 2018 9:00 AM PST

    Jabir said:

    Caffeineinjected said:

    This is correct. The problem arises when the Company, in this case VR, caves in on trying to nerf ealier content to allow new players to catch up to their friends that had already been in game for years. Why would you do that??? I had to play Lineage 2 for 8 months to reach max level. Why should it be any different 3 years down the road. Keep it real people

    I totally agree, in principle, but you cannot ignore that joining a 3-year-old MMO can be a lonely experience because almost everybody else is at max level. A quick fix is to make it relatively easy to catch up. A good fix would be to somehow make it fun and rewarding enough for the vets to roll alts over and over again. How? I have no idea.

    In Pantheon this lonely experience will be compounded by racial (multiple) starting zones. I don't think racial starting zones should be compromised at all, that's a GREAT thing and essential to a living world IMO. 

    I don't think making it easy to catch up is a "fix", I think that game breaking. It does allow them to catch up but at what cost? Total or near total destruction of the early game. Your "good fix" is what pantheon needs. And I don't know what it is either, but I think the Devs have a plan, and I think it lies in the progeny system they just aren't ready to share it yet.

    They have,always shown themselves to be pretty creative, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. Any time people come up with concerns about certain mechanics (LFG, Classic Servers, etc.) They always seem to blow all our concerns (and I have them) out of the water.