Forums » Pantheon Classes

Traditional Necros aren't needed

    • 316 posts
    December 21, 2018 11:46 PM PST
    Ckalen said:
    "I like it.
    Some class ideas that necro can have
    Cc power (right now we only have the enchanter ans possibly bard)
    Spells like fear make the mob cower instead of run away. Cage of bones. Mob is imprisoned in a cage of bones. Disease. Mob is overcome by a violent fever
    Visions of death mob is in awe of what awaits in the after life
    A resurrect spel
    Aoe exploding corpse
    Zombie A spell that being back a dead mob for a short time that engages another mob
    All kinds of things"

    Yes, Ckalen. Yes, yes, yes.
    • 690 posts
    December 26, 2018 6:58 AM PST
    With powerful buffs, powerful mez, Mana restoring nukes, and perma charm, enchanter will be capable at cc, support, and dps in ways similar to group neceos from eq.
    I agree that necros would be redundant if they were left as they were in eq, whether we gave them the DPS(too similar to summoner) or utility(too similar to enchanter) functions mentioned in previous posts. Also, shaman has both dots and debuffs, several DPS roles have debuffs and powederful support, and cleric can heal allies upon doing damage. We don't even know what bard does yet, but I'd like to guess that buffs and Mana restoration will be staples.
    All n all, things are looking pretty bad for a unique necro.

    I would suggest that since we do need a necro for sexy lore, make necro mainly cc and/or dps and add:
    -A pet whom he relies upon for cc rather than tanking or DPS.
    -slightly different mechanics to the mez that are more useful in different situations, like a hard to break fear, or a bone prison that negates accidental direct, aoe, and dot damage while it's up, as mentioned by ckalen.
    -Life but not Mana restore spells which do more damage but heal less then cleric spells so he can directly preserve healer Mana while putting in good damage,
    -some higher damage dots than shaman and some weaker versions of shaman debuffs.
    -Spells that make use of dead adds, as mentioned by ckalen
    • 2752 posts
    December 26, 2018 10:39 AM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said:  -Life but not Mana restore spells which do more damage but heal less then cleric spells so he can directly preserve healer Mana while putting in good damage 

    If they end up in the CC/Support role they will need a means to "heal" mana like Enchanter (and presumably Bard) if they want to be as desired, that's the main reason people (currently) want enchanters around since single pulling and/or makeshift CCing adds isn't the hardest thing in the world. 

    • 379 posts
    December 26, 2018 8:12 PM PST

    When I first read the initial post on this thread - I was like 'Oooooh snap, he nailed it.' Then after thinking about it and talking with some friends, I think the DoT DPS class does have a spot in the game. Wizards are DD's, Summoners are Pets (mainly) + DD's etc, that leaves Necro open to have another style of doing damage. I think the pets however should not resemble that of Summoner, being permanent - but more of a frenzy style pet with high dmg but low sustain and duration - raising the dead to attack X target, etc.

    They will need some sort of utility to bring to the table though, otherwise they will surely be left on the bench. Corpse summoning is obvious, but unlike some classes Necro's have a lot available to them from lore and imagery. Some ideas would be sacrificing health to heal another, charm undead, mez undead (summon a skeleton to hold X creature for Y duration), slow (attack speed) undead, group feign death, or even a damage mitigation bone shield for the tank. You really can be creative with the class, but I do feel like putting them in the support/utility bracket would be a bummer.

    • 690 posts
    December 27, 2018 6:27 AM PST
    I suspect that once mobs get smart and VR can zero in on enemy placement, especially at higher levels cc might be very important.

    Still though I see what you are saying, Mana heals are good.
    I was just thinking that if necro was a higher DPS class with some heals it would preserve healer Mana, filling that need for a healer and a half but not 2 healers in a different way. The extra DPS makes up for how they don't help DPS caster Mana, and defense debuffs could also improve DPS damage. Ultimately accomplishing the same things in different ways, so long as the numbers are balanced right.

    Finally, I feel like giving necros Mana heals will be redundant since we might just see a ton of bards and enchanters and necros, and not everyone relies on their Mana like they do health or threat. Maybe necro could be given a focus for healing secondary resources? Everyone's gonna have those.
    • 100 posts
    December 27, 2018 11:06 AM PST

    I'd like a DoT DPS specialist for the necro, that's it.

    • 2752 posts
    December 27, 2018 11:45 AM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said: I suspect that once mobs get smart and VR can zero in on enemy placement, especially at higher levels cc might be very important. Still though I see what you are saying, Mana heals are good. I was just thinking that if necro was a higher DPS class with some heals it would preserve healer Mana, filling that need for a healer and a half but not 2 healers in a different way. The extra DPS makes up for how they don't help DPS caster Mana, and defense debuffs could also improve DPS damage. Ultimately accomplishing the same things in different ways, so long as the numbers are balanced right. Finally, I feel like giving necros Mana heals will be redundant since we might just see a ton of bards and enchanters and necros, and not everyone relies on their Mana like they do health or threat. Maybe necro could be given a focus for healing secondary resources? Everyone's gonna have those.

     

    Give them the lesser of the mana buffs between the 3 but also instead of direct healing give them a "Lifelink" spell binding them to a target to take a portion of the damage for themselves while they heal via life leeching DD/DoTs that are relatively low damage but with a high percentage of the damage returned as HP. 

     

    Actually, they could make their mana boon work similarly. Give them "Spiritlink" that would allow a percentage of the mana cost for their linked group member's spells to draw mana instead from the necromancer and have mana be more a secondary/tertiary resource for the necro themself, kind of like a small "battery" that they work to charge via different spells. Maybe they can convert their own health into mana to some degree like the old EQ lich spells. 

     

    I think the above would be a foundation to make them into a very interesting class with an unique play style of managing resources to support all sorts of group compositions. Throw in some CC and maybe some decaying/deteriorating short duration stat buffs that are siphoned from mobs to temporarily grant to group members. 

    • 3 posts
    January 1, 2019 4:22 AM PST

         Some really interesting points in this thread.  I agree that the Pantheon Necro shouldn't have the same solo strengths that EQ's Necro did, but I think you could achieve that while still keeping a similar theme.  One possible way, might be to make many of the Necromancer's dps spells trigger off the actions of others, rather than traditional dots.  Something like "Necrotic Boils: Target is covered in necrotic pustules which burst when struck by attacks or direct damage spells, dealing "x" with each hit.  Necrotic Boils can be triggered "x" times before fading."   Playing with damage numbers and/or number of triggers to balance, but this would throttle ease and efficiency of solo play. 

         The pet could have much lower direct dps output than, say, a summoner pet, while still contributing to the Necro's overall dps, retaining the theme but providing a different playstyle from the Summoner and still maintainging a competative group dps level.  You could even reshape the permanent Necro pet into being the catalyst for it's utility application as well, further separating the two classes.  For example,  "Gravelord's Gaze:  The Necromancer's pet locks your target in a horrifying gaze, paralyzing the target and preventing any actions for "x" seconds.  The gaze is not broken upon taking damage."  Give this spell a short duration, say... 3 seconds and you've given the Necro a utility stun that can be used to buy your enchanter time or interrupt casing, etc. while also removing pet related dps for the duration.  Couple this with the Necro's personal dps being somewhat reliant on the actions of others, and it again limits ease of soloability.  

         At any rate, I think there's room for the Necromancer in Pantheon, while keeping it's functionality within the vision of the game, and presents an opporitunity to rework the class into something that doesn't just feel like a rehashed EQ or Vanguard Necro.  

    --

         Reading back more thoroughly, I like BeaverBiscuit's idea of giving the Necro the ability to provide pressure relief to the healer of the group, as well as mana battery capabilities offered by Iksar.  However, as BeaverBiscuit pointed out, oversaturation of mana regen utility could be a thing, and to that end... spot healing as well.  I wonder if the goal of both couldn't be achieved more indirectly via mechanics similar to Vanguard's Blood Mage symbiotes.  The Necro could harvest parts from dead mobs that fuel buffs and/or debuffs to be applied to respective targets. 

     

    Something like   Blood for the Bloodless: Expend a harvested drained heart to summon a blood fiend who bonds to your defensive target, increasing their AC by "x" and causing their attacks to steal life upon striking for "x" seconds. 

     

    Similarly, one could be applied for mana.  Something like      Mind Rot:  Expend a harvested rotting cortex to create a thought leech who burrows deep into the mind of your offensive target.  For "x" seconds, offensive spells that strike the target siphon "x" mana returning it to the caster.    

    Numbers tuned for balance, of course, but you get the gist. 


    This post was edited by Eadren at January 1, 2019 11:58 AM PST
    • 11 posts
    January 4, 2019 3:18 PM PST

    Never played EQ, but to me the best Necromancer I ever played was in Diablo and GW2, DoT's, drains, CC and various monstrosities and undead obeying my command. Imho if it dosen't have those things it sorta ruins the class fantasy. We don't know how how exactly either a necro is gonna play out, but it seems in general a summoner will have two summons going, the second being a more aggressive orriented and you having more choice but they all seem mainly like DPS. So a necro could perhaps only have one, maybe start with a simple skelington or zambo and then you got some sort of death knight or bone/blood/stiched together golem-like creature following you around at high level then that creature could help with some tanking, if the main concern is they are too similar to summoners. I can't really see a necro without a pet, then they should have just done a warlock, warlocks are generally just "evil wizards" in a lot of stories and games and sure in some they have demon servants, but it's not nearly as iconic as the necromancer raising the dead. I would honestly also find it a lot more logical they would drain health rather than mana, generally I would associate a necromancer with someone who drains someones lifeforce or soul or whatever you want to call it, than their arcane/spiritual energies, although both could certainly work.

    Right now though, my main concern is class fantasy, considering we are not even in Alpha and there are several classes (including this one) we have not seen, it's too early (for my taste) to talk about balancing and synergy.

    • 124 posts
    January 10, 2019 6:12 AM PST

    Well . . . i never played a Necromancer (not really anyway) in EQ1. I have however played other classes such as druid and ranger.

    When comparing my personal results / experience in the early days on soloing to a necromancer, i must admit they always seemed to have the advantage. (obviously this also had to do with specific camps us tree huggers couldn't touch . . . treant's in the karana's any1?).

    Later on, when i was playing my warrior primarily, i would often see necro's outside of groups soloing. (wide and open zones mostly like luclin. Nothing like velk's labs) where i always assumed they were just a solo class that had been given some grouping perks. And i believe this image is with most the people here stating that the necro is a solo class. (yes freeport doesn't like my druid as i was killing those town guards after i did the milk quest . . .).

    So all in all, i geuss the problem for people who never played a necro (early game) is the memory of what they remember seeing, as it is for me. If it wasn't for this entire discussion (and actually taking the time to read it all), i would probably come to the exact same statements as how this topic started. Vanilla EQ Necro's are a solo class.

    Seeing how others have actively 'defended' their point of view, from a necro player perspective, this does open your mind to thought that maybe i also had the wrong view of the class. Or cannot remember that era of the necro.

     

    All in all, i can say i'm not in favor of any class in pantheon to be a solo class. Yes you should have the ability to do 'something' worth your while when not being able to find a group. But defeat group content or even killing a boss from group content area's is a big no no.

    And in regards to suggestions: Enchanters are crowd control thru enlightenment? Why not take the EQ2 approach. Make an enchanter more melee focussed where necro could be the coercer, being more magic focussed support. They will share abilities, but they will also have their own specialization.


    This post was edited by decarsul at January 10, 2019 6:16 AM PST
    • 633 posts
    January 10, 2019 8:29 AM PST

    Your view wasn't entirely incorrect, necros had very little to offer a group when they were first released, and probably for the first 5 or 6 months of the game.  But Verant went back and made some modifications to them, and added things in Kunark that really helped them with grouping.

    They could definitely group effectively, but their DPS was generally low and they had very little in the way of group utility, since most of their buffs and such were either self only, or only effected their pet.  They did have some heals that could accentuate other healing classes, but they could not primary heal by any stretch of the imagination.

    Their mesmerize came in a few months after the game came out.  Screaming Terror was original an indoor only fear spell, so nobody used it as an indoor only fear spell was suicidal.  So Verant eventually changed it to a 24 second mesmerize, that had like an 8 second cooldown or something.  The ability to transfer mana to another player (the subversion line) came sometime around Kunark (it may have been part of Kunark, I don't remember for sure).  As time went on, they got more and more group items.

    When it came to raids, necros could dominate raids because their dots were high damage (over their duration) and they could feign off agro from the damage they dealt.

    I liked playing a necro before the changes, but I really loved them after they became more group friendly.  I would love to see something like them, but to keep them from just becoming another DPS (we have enough in the game), it would be cool if they were a control class.   I've described my ideal control class for a necromancer in a post above.

    • 2 posts
    January 10, 2019 4:49 PM PST

    Perhaps I can add something to this discussion and offer a different perspective. 


    My main up to Luclin was a necro and I mostly played socially though I'd solo on occation when nothing was happening guild/friend wise.

    Very few people who hadn't played a necro truly understood it's abilities and spell lines, in a pickup group many would start laying down the ground rules and forbidding the necro from using some/many of their abilities because they had previously had bad experiences with bad players.

    1. You had to be very very careful with a pet because of buggy pathing, always ready to disband it, attack, call it off, call it to your side, a poor player could very easily agro whole zones with shitty pet control.

    2. A necro would constantly be draining HP from a MOB, converting the HPs to Mana and then pumping the HP/Mana to other group members/pet, done poorly this could very easily kill the necro because these were mostly DOT style spells.

    3. Fear/Slow was very useful but melee classes (especially tanks) hated it for obvious reasons.

    4. Finally we come to DOTs, many necros didn't fully know which ones stacked and which ones didn't and were very poor at judging agro.


    If a necro isn't allowed to have a pet, use fear or the battle is too short for DOTs (including HP drain) to kick in then the necro is really useless, on top of this many healers would freak out if a Necro's HPs dropped because of HP/Mana conversion or reverse lifetaps because they didn't understand the mechanics or just didn't like it.

    Conversly a poor necro who constantly pulls agro from a tank with DOTs, has an out of control pet, sends feared mobs to get trains or kills himself/herself with HP conversion isn't a fun person to group with and can cause a lot more harm than most other classes.

    In the end I mostly grouped with friends or guildies because necros had such a bad rep but I think when played well a Necro could really be beneficial to a group, especially for boss fights or longer battles but I also think many necros just gave up on grouping all together.

    I think there is a role for a class which is mostly duration based (pet/DOT/taps) be it in the style of EQ Necro or LOTRO Lore Master but any class which spells have a long duration is naturally going to be very strategic and dynamic causing a bit of confusion and misunderstanding.


    This post was edited by antevens at January 10, 2019 4:50 PM PST
    • 1033 posts
    January 17, 2019 9:30 AM PST

    The more times change, the more they stay the same.

     

    Well, I guess the only solution then is to make sure every class has the same abilities as every other class so people don't get upset about how they are useless in a group. /sarc

     

     

    • 316 posts
    January 21, 2019 11:15 PM PST
    What do you think about necromancers foregoing a permanent pet in favor of temporary control over raised corpses? This would clearly differentiate them from summoners. And it matches the necromancer theme so well - raising the dead.
    • 1033 posts
    January 22, 2019 11:25 AM PST

    Honestly, I think it really doesn't matter how different a class is from another (not in the terms of what some here are objecting to). 

     

    This idea of class envy, the need to think that one class should be "Special" among all others is irrelevant. So what if the summoner is of a certain design that is similar to that of a necro? Why does it matter? In EQ, a mage and a necromancer were very similar in many basic ways, but differed in base directions and focus. I see this issue as no different than that and other than pretentious busy bodies, I don't remember anyone thinking Mages and Necros were a redundant class. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 22, 2019 1:25 PM PST

    Walpurgis said:

    Iksar said:

    They were just "bad" DPS for a group because they didn't have time to get the most out of their DoTs (wasted mana) and their nukes were not mana friendly either. The key part of Necromancer in groups for EQ was they changed roles almost entirely (the good ones anyway) to that of a support and NOT a DPS. So hopefully they land as more of a support/CC here as grouping is the focus. 

    I was able to hold my own in DPS, I wasn’t the top, but I did my part.  I wouldn’t say my DPS was just plain bad though.  The thing about Necromancers in Vanilla EQ was we didn’t just change to one role, we could CC, heal, give mana, etc. and we couldn’t fill a role, more like back up.  That was difficult and threw a lot of people off.  You had to be very flexible in your playstyle to get the most out of playing a Necromancer.

    A pure support/CC wouldn’t work.  I have already seen a thread that is discussing the most efficient group setup for XP.  Necros would never get a group.  I still stand by having DPS and a support.  I hope they don’t go the jack of all trades route but focus on one support ability.  I liked what Kelenin said about DPS/Healer, I could play something to that effect.

    People also talk about games like EQ and WOW as if they never changed. Necro DPS was insane in classic EQ and at various other times with charming, etc. The class evolved. People also seem to focus on raid only content when judging a class. Necros were always fantastic in a group, they were survivable, the pet was a beast that could dps and off tank, and they brought utility to the group as well. We seem so obssessed with creating the single most effective combination of classes at all times for all encounters that we forget that fun is fun. Necros were great to have in a group, they were fun to play and strong solo as well. Yes they didn't excel in raids and had to switch to mana batteries, but that very thing just made them more versatile. 

    • 56 posts
    January 22, 2019 4:28 PM PST

    It is a different flavor class. Yes simular but not the same as a summoner. Necro's are great for people who want to play darker magic user. With what you said about it is just a reskinned Summoner well you an say that about a lot of classes. A summoner is just a wizard thats dps is in a visuall pet so why have it. Rogues and ranger do near the same thing why have both. I am not saying we should have tons and tons of classes but nothing wrong with a little variety. I have known plenty of Necro players in my 20+ years of mmos that group up more then anything. Hell who is going to corpse summon with out them.

    • 1033 posts
    January 28, 2019 6:33 AM PST

    Keno Monster said:

    Walpurgis said:

    Iksar said:

    They were just "bad" DPS for a group because they didn't have time to get the most out of their DoTs (wasted mana) and their nukes were not mana friendly either. The key part of Necromancer in groups for EQ was they changed roles almost entirely (the good ones anyway) to that of a support and NOT a DPS. So hopefully they land as more of a support/CC here as grouping is the focus. 

    I was able to hold my own in DPS, I wasn’t the top, but I did my part.  I wouldn’t say my DPS was just plain bad though.  The thing about Necromancers in Vanilla EQ was we didn’t just change to one role, we could CC, heal, give mana, etc. and we couldn’t fill a role, more like back up.  That was difficult and threw a lot of people off.  You had to be very flexible in your playstyle to get the most out of playing a Necromancer.

    A pure support/CC wouldn’t work.  I have already seen a thread that is discussing the most efficient group setup for XP.  Necros would never get a group.  I still stand by having DPS and a support.  I hope they don’t go the jack of all trades route but focus on one support ability.  I liked what Kelenin said about DPS/Healer, I could play something to that effect.

    People also talk about games like EQ and WOW as if they never changed. Necro DPS was insane in classic EQ and at various other times with charming, etc. The class evolved. People also seem to focus on raid only content when judging a class. Necros were always fantastic in a group, they were survivable, the pet was a beast that could dps and off tank, and they brought utility to the group as well. We seem so obssessed with creating the single most effective combination of classes at all times for all encounters that we forget that fun is fun. Necros were great to have in a group, they were fun to play and strong solo as well. Yes they didn't excel in raids and had to switch to mana batteries, but that very thing just made them more versatile. 

    Yep, which is why I am very skeptical of people wanting Pantheon to go crazy with raid content. I watched EQ over the years design all of its content around raiders. Classes and their capabilties were measured by their raid geared design, not 6 man groups. EQ eventually became a hard focused raid game where grouping content was designed for the raiders when they weren't raiding. The monk nerf was a perfect example of where group play was killed for low to mid stage raiders while the top raiders escaped it due to their gear. 

    As for necros, I agree they were awesome in groups. I loved their versatility and that is something I miss in games today. I found a lot of people in EQ after a while would complain because min/maxing key focus caused them to overlook the importance of various utilties. 

    • 10 posts
    February 1, 2019 8:46 PM PST
    Xil and Kelenin you guys sold me. Those versions of a necro sound WAY more fun to me.
    • 4 posts
    February 25, 2019 9:43 AM PST

    I really like the idea of temporary pets for Necro's with most of them costing life to summon as the Necro infuses them with their life energy. Only have 1 (or maybe 1 long-term and 1 short-term) at a time

     

    Long-term summons: 

    Summon Mana Ghost -- costs mana to summon. Long duration but not permanent. Feeds mana to the defensive target. Controlled like a pet and so can either deliverr a burst heal of all mana or Heal-over-time. 

    Summon Blood Golem -- costs health and mana to summon. Long duration. Heals defensive target for x amount. ontrolled like a pet and so can either deliverr a burst heal of all health or Heal-over-time. Can deliver partial health pool to one target and then switch to new defensive target (if using heal over time). Or maybe have multiple "burst" charges

     

    Short-term Summons

    Summon Wraith -- costs both mana and health to summon. Short duration. Pet which attacks offensive target with each hit adding a long-duration slow debuff

    Summon Bone Juggernaut -- costs both mana and health. Tank pet with taunt that can absorb X number of hits. The pet taunt leaves on ongoing buff which prevents any other Juggernaut from taunting the mob (to prevent abuse)

    Summon Blood Wasps -- costs health and mana. Short duration. Pet which attacks offensive target and adds stacking DoT damage

    Summon Corporeal Spirit -- costs health and mana. Basis for CC. A spirit with physical form holds the enemy in place (Mez equivalent, maybe shorter duration but with residual debuffs from being overtaken by a spirit)

     

    Other ideas:

    Speak with Dead -- to allow Necros to assist with Lore and Exploration

    Freeze Blood -- Slow spell, maybe only works on creates considered alove

    Control Undead -- charm but only works on undead

    Spirit Pocket -- creates a weightless storage which lasts for 24 hours 

     

    Just some ideas.

     


    This post was edited by MagniGrey at February 25, 2019 9:45 AM PST