Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Please reconsider Recognizable Item Identity

    • 1315 posts
    December 3, 2018 8:07 AM PST

    Please reconsider Itemization based on Recognizable Item Identity

    *edit 12/5*

    I have rewritten the TLDR to better reflect my message.  Feel free to skip this first post and jump to my post in the link below for the rewrite

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9728/please-reconsider-recognizable-item-identity/view/post_id/186765

    TLDR:

    1) Requesting Itemization centered on Player Crafted items rather than Named Items

    2) Most Art Objects could be made into top tier items by crafters who have learned the art objects which would increase the available end game looks.

    3) Crafters would never make named items but through study and sacrifice would be able to duplicate the Named Items and possibly at a higher base quality.

    4) Item decay would only be for non-soul bound items, and then only if other item removal tools were not sufficient to control the number of in game items available, specifically due to on demand crafting.

    *end edit 12/5*

    (TLDR at the bottom, its ok I know you are going to skip to it)

    Both Brad and Chris have expressed a strong desire to have items be recognizable through unique character art objects which in turn conveys a certain achievement marker on the item holder.  I can understand the desire to have items with meaning but ultimately having many unique items is bad for art asset utilization, waters down the few truly important unique items and encourages the Best in Slot mentality.

    In one of the recent community streams Chris spoke at length about how important it was for the unique dagger his rogue was using to retain its identity through the course of the life of the game.  While this sounds good on paper lets fast forward to one year after release.  At this point there will be plenty of max level characters capable of farming good spawns 24/7, different players but the spawn getting close to 100% utilization.  If that unique dagger is both pretty and holds its own through the life of your character then it will become the most commonly equipped dagger in the game.  What was once unique and interesting is now the cookie cutter item for a rogue of X-Y level range as the drop has been farm constantly for nearly a year.

    As Pantheon as yet does not have any form of item decay and will only have a couple optional item trade in mechanics (salvaging, buff giving NPCs and vendor feeding for cash) copies of this dagger will only become more and more abundant over time.  If this, or another unique dagger, becomes the best in slot item and is relatively available (number of daggers in circulation vs the number of rogues in the correct level range) then all other daggers will drop in value until they are worth only what the optional trading gets them.

    This in turn means that all the unique art created for the other daggers is either completely wasted or under-utilized existing only in the hands of players with “costume gear” or new players who have yet to build up enough wealth to get the cookie cutter dagger.  In my mind this is both a tragedy for beautiful, or intentionally ugly, art objects and a travesty of what should be commonly found in the world.  This game art utilization also encourages constantly jumping the shark to more impressive looks in order to make new gear stand out from old gear.  Down this path lies beach ball sized shoulder pads, carnival style helms and two handed swords the size of truck beds all sparkling with their own LED running lights. We will call this the Blingflation effect that goes hand in hand with mudflation.

    The other main effect of every unique item having its own unique look is the motley fool effect.  If only one or two items from each dungeon actually retains value over time and overall availability is inconsistent then most if not all players will be wearing mixed pieces from all over the game world.  These different pieces can and will have ridiculously clashing styles, colors and effects which while coherent from the art style they originate from look terrible when combined together.  What may have been intended to look cool or even heroic ends up looking like a color blind 5 year olds choice of wardrobe.

    Two other casualties of the Recognizable Unique items design are Item Variability and Forced Item Decay.

    In my opinion Forced Item Decay is a critical tool in managing the total game item inventory in a persistent world.  Ultimately every item dropped would have a maximum number of uses before it eventually leaves the item economy or an equivalent value of items does in its place.  Forced Item Decay is also a get out of jail free card for unbalanced items remaining in the economy after they have been removed from the drop table.  After a certain number of uses all of the offending items will leave the economy and there by solving a development fubar without player heart ache.  For items that remain on the drop tables Forced Item Decay encourages players to return to older content in order to reacquire worn out items there by continuing to utilize old content that would otherwise be abandoned.  Due to the items decaying over time the relative drop rates of items could be higher there by allowing more players to move through the content in a given period of time vs the drop rates for indestructible items.

    Forced Item Decay is also a strong vehicle for adventurer/crafter interactions which is becomes another way to develop real in game communities.  Adventurers will prefer to go to players with crafting skills to repair their decaying rather than NPCs due to cost and effect differences.  Adventurers will also be encouraged to bring the specific raw materials needed to repair their item to their crafters which in turn becomes a source for non-adventurer crafters to get their hands on needed materials to develop their craft.  Eventually an item will no longer be repairable to 100% effectiveness and at this point the crafter and adventurer will have the choice to sell the item at a discount, salvage the item for raw materials, reverse engineer the item to help in learning how to craft it or overhaul it with a significant expenditure of raw materials if the crafter already can craft it.

    The drop in effectiveness when an item is no longer fully repairable is where Item Quality intersects with Forced Item Decay.  Either through heavy use or poor initial crafting/drop quality items will be able to have a range of effectiveness for the combination of materials and process that create the item.  Variable Item Quality crafting results are critical for a robust crafting system. Crafting systems where A+B = C or null are just too limiting to be considered a real crafting system.  Similarly crafting systems that only accept A and B to make C and not A2 and B5 to make C15 fall into the same trap as unique items and BiS design rather than “the best tool for the job” design.

    The combination of the two functions will also encourage a system where crafters will be able to learn to make an item by deconstructing 10 or so versions of an item to learn one of the crafting sub processes needed to make that item.  Then the crafter would be able to use their own skill and new raw materials to make a new version of said item once they had learned all the required crafting methods.  The crafters result would then only be limited by their crafting skills and availability of the raw materials to possibly make a high quality result than what might ever drop naturally from a mob.  Even masterwork quality crafted items would still decay over time and drop in quality to lower levels giving a crafter future business as adventurers want to keep the best of the best quality items equipped.

    A further meta consequence of Forced Item Decay is the effect it will have on bulk farming.  You are not going to want to use your epic sword of dragon slaying to farm 100s of lower level mobs.  The loss to durability on the worn items would not be covered by any possible gains from farming low level mobs.  Adventurers would keep “farming gear” and maybe “learning gear” of lower value or common materials where repetitive use is required or the likely hood of death and subsequent higher amounts of item decay are expected for no real gains are expected.

     

    TLDR:

    Down sides of Itemization based on Recognizable Item Identity

    1)      Over time the rare becomes common and the unique becomes cookie cutter

    2)      Exclusive art is wasted art

    3)      When dignity conflicts with BiS, we all look like clowns

    4)      Blingflation is almost worse than Mudflation

    Recognizable Item Identity kills off robust item lifecycle tools

    1)      Its heart breaking to see your Epic sword of Epicness shatter because you hit a diamond golem 4000 times so no one wants durability to be a concern.

    2)      When items decay all itemization mistakes are only temporary

    3)      Forced Item decay creates repeat customers for both content and crafters

    4)      Variable item quality is a key part of a robust crafting system

    5)      The interaction between Forced Item Decay and Item quality creates a life cycle flow for all items.

    6)      You don’t wear your Sunday best to weed the garden and neither should your character.

     

    Thank you for taking the time to read even if it was only the TLDR section,

    Trasak


    This post was edited by Trasak at December 5, 2018 7:41 AM PST
    • 523 posts
    December 3, 2018 8:13 AM PST

    EQ 1 did this and it worked exceptionally well for many, many years.  I'm not worried at all about this.  I think you're thinking too much of current MMOs where there is a metric tons of drops because you get upgardes with every quest and dungeon run.  Not gonna be like that.  Upgrades will be few and far between.  And when you finally get one, you bet your sweet tookus you want it to stand out and be instantly recognizable.  

    • 1315 posts
    December 3, 2018 8:22 AM PST

    We have a different definition of “worked exceptionally well”.  EQ1 was a huge offender to the eyes when it came to the clown gear people chose to wear in combat.  Likewise there were some great art objects that got attached to items with terrible stats that never saw use.  EQ1 also has the hugely imbalanced item value between BiS items and everything else.  All tradable top tier items or near to it were in the 10s to even 100s of thousands of plat while the items just a bit lower in value were in the 100-500 plat range.  Lastly crafting was a terrible masochistic joke on the player base.

    • 287 posts
    December 3, 2018 8:26 AM PST

    Forced item decay is a horrible mechanic.  If you've ever played a game with item decay then you know how "fun" it is to always carry a second set of gear in your bags for those [frequent] times when you don't want to risk wearing down your good set.  Swapping gear back and forth becomes muscle memory as you do it so often.  Many times you have a 3rd or even 4th set of the same good gear in your bank just in case the set you carry gets too worn to be trustworthy in an important battle (breakage due to use).  Even games that support repairing the gear, and thus diminishing some other stat meant to limit the number of times you can repair it, force the situation above.

    BiS mentality is not a bad thing.  In a game where not everyone has the same gear there will be min-maxers.  These players drive the competitive side of the game and give most everyone else something to aspire to.  Having BiS gear, an inevitability in a game with a variety of gear available, gives everyone goals, short or long term.

    The least critical aspect is how unique the gear looks.  If the BiS dagger for a level 500 rogue looks like a kitchen knife the min-maxing rogues will still use that dagger.  If your goal is to limit how much time is spent generating unique graphics for those epic-for-now items then fine, that likely won't make much difference.  People will complain on the forums but that won't stop them using the gear.  The item decay and BiS commentary seems like a non-sequiter though, a strawman setup to support an unrelated argument.

    Nobody likes the results of their hard work to decay, especially when it cannot be maintained in peak condition forever even if that takes time and effort.  Permanent decay of gear and character aging (forced retirement) will keep a non-trivial part of the potential playerbase from ever picking up the game.  

    • 1315 posts
    December 3, 2018 9:02 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    *Snip*.  The item decay and BiS commentary seems like a non-sequiter though, a strawman setup to support an unrelated argument.

    Nobody likes the results of their hard work to decay, especially when it cannot be maintained in peak condition forever even if that takes time and effort.  Permanent decay of gear and character aging (forced retirement) will keep a non-trivial part of the potential playerbase from ever picking up the game.  

    Your very next sentance was the link I was making between BiS and Item decay. Not wantting to see your hard earned BiS item decay is a big source of push back against an item decay system.  I can see how it may be irritating to need to switch gear and if you are actually maintaining 3 or 4 sets of the same gear then the decay rate is probably too high.  There will be items that are always worth overhauling every time back to full but they will end up consuming a large amount of salvaged material which in turn consumes a lot of lower quality drops that could otherwise be used.

    Item decay, or some other unavoidable function that removes items from the game over time, is a necessary evil to control in game item inventories.  If something similar is not in place then certain content will loose the relative reward it was intended to have for its risk. It might be a stretch but it was where the link was in my mind.  I try very hard not to allow myself to use strawman arguments.

    • 128 posts
    December 3, 2018 9:12 AM PST

    The very last thing I want in this game is "Forced Item Decay".   If I get an item that I worked hard for, I don't want to lose it over time. If honestly I still wish to equip it many levels later than when I got it, that should me my choice.  I seriously suggest that the Pantheron developers do not implement forced item decay in any way, shape or form.

    • 61 posts
    December 3, 2018 9:16 AM PST

    Down sides of Itemization based on Recognizable Item Identity

    1)      Over time the rare becomes common and the unique becomes cookie cutter - Unavoidable in a loot centric game.

    2)      Exclusive art is wasted art - If the player base recognizes an item by its art work, then it was not wasted.

    3)      When dignity conflicts with BiS, we all look like clowns - This is just another level of decision making added to the game. Do I look silly and perform better? Some of the outfits were hilarious in EQ and that was part of the fun.

    4)      Blingflation is almost worse than Mudflation - Some of this is personal opinion with as you call it Blingflation. Items becoming more and more impressive is something that goes hand in hand with player growth. As a player improves, so should the itemization. Creative planning and design can keep the items fresh and innovative for many years.

    Recognizable Item Identity kills off robust item lifecycle tools

    1)      Its heart breaking to see your Epic sword of Epicness shatter because you hit a diamond golem 4000 times so no one wants durability to be a concern. - Durability only works when the loot is easily replaceable. If you have to exert a lot of effort to acquire a very rare item and knowing it will eventually disintegrate over time, the desire to pursue that item is lessen greatly.

    2)      When items decay all itemization mistakes are only temporary - So is item appreciation

    3)      Forced Item decay creates repeat customers for both content and crafters - And it also causes players to reduce usage to avoid replacement headaches, and therefore has a trickledown effect into the game world in how players interact.

    4)      Variable item quality is a key part of a robust crafting system - I will agree, crafting items need to have a strong incentive to make them viable and wanted. How to make them very useful and wanted, but not dilute the need to venture out in the world to hunt loot drops is a challenging balancing act. Making all items temporary doesn't seem like the best answer though.

    5)      The interaction between Forced Item Decay and Item quality creates a life cycle flow for all items. - And it also lessens the player/item attachment. As well, twinking is greatly lessen, which helps generate new character creation and keep older zones alive.

    6)      You don’t wear your Sunday best to weed the garden and neither should your character. - Not sure what you meant by this. Are you stating switching outfits based on environment to avoid using up durability? If so, seems there will be enough outfit changes to be sure you are using the correct pieces for the encounter you are facing. Imagine having to replace all the situational specific pieces constantly due to durability degradation. This is not appealing to me at all.

     

    I am looking forward to going back to handmade items instead of procedurally generated items. I honestly can barely remember the names of most items I have found in most games, but anyone who played EQ1 are familiar with:

    SSoY, FBSS, Polished Granite Tomahawk, etc.

    Finding these items meant something to you and when someone had the item, you knew exactly what they had and what they went through to get it, assuming you had already experienced it yourself. Me getting an item and knowing it will be gone after a few hundred hits and I will either have to go camp it again or I will need to commission its construction again, this deflates my desire to get attached to any items as they all become expendable.

    Hopefully in the future, housing of some form will be available and keeping these historic items as trophies in your home for nostalgia will be possible.

     


    This post was edited by Roxxers at December 3, 2018 9:45 AM PST
    • 334 posts
    December 3, 2018 9:56 AM PST

    Akilae said:
    Forced item decay is a horrible mechanic.  If you've ever played a game with item decay then you know how "fun" it is to always carry a second set of gear in your bags for those [frequent] times when you don't want to risk wearing down your good set.  Swapping gear back and forth becomes muscle memory as you do it so often.  Many times you have a 3rd or even 4th set of the same good gear in your bank just in case the set you carry gets too worn to be trustworthy in an important battle (breakage due to use).  Even games that support repairing the gear, and thus diminishing some other stat meant to limit the number of times you can repair it, force the situation above.

    I agree that forced item decay is typically a bad mechanic if the outcome is that you'll always end up losing a piece of gear. However, there's room for durability loss on gear if it's extended over a long enough period of time, and that the gear is repairable to its original state. This could be something along the lines of a once-every-two-weeks or even once-a-month trip to a player crafter for someone who plays regularly (average of couple hours every day). This way, players don't have to worry about losing their rare, unique gear, while crafters still retain purpose and have a place in a maturing game economy.

    BiS mentality is not a bad thing.  In a game where not everyone has the same gear there will be min-maxers.  These players drive the competitive side of the game and give most everyone else something to aspire to.  Having BiS gear, an inevitability in a game with a variety of gear available, gives everyone goals, short or long term.

    I agree with this as well, the key is in tuning the "gap" between non-BiS and BiS items. Players should feel the power of their unique, rare, BiS item, yet it shouldn't be so far above the next best item that the power disparity is clearly noticeable. I'm personally a fan of the design of BiS items really only being 1%-3% more powerful than others, or having unique procs or other attributes. This also leaves room for non-BiS gear to potentially be BiS if someone is running a non-conventional build.


    This post was edited by Sicario at December 3, 2018 9:57 AM PST
    • 79 posts
    December 3, 2018 10:02 AM PST

    I do not like the idea of forced item decay at all, especially in a game where your strength determines how much you can carry and you have a limited inventory space. You would probably be adventuring with 3/4 of your inventory already taken up and not be able to loot much of anything. If you need to constantly be farming rare gear over again in a open world type setting I don't see anything being fun anymore as every dungeon you go to will be packed full of people trying to steal names from each other. It's nice to have something to work towards but I don't think anyone wants to work endless just to exist so they can get to the next step of working endlessly again. Its one thing in a PvP focused game where the gear means you have a better chance at "winning" but in a PVE game gear is everything and it will just lead to a ground hog day effect that they are trying to avoid.

    As far as recognizable item's, I really don't see this being that big of a problem with the original game if they balance sets towards certain stat builds. Yeah some people might end up looking goofy but that would only probably happen in between upgrades and if you have some kind of weird hybrid build. Personally I loved when they added dye in original EQ because they gave you a whole color wheel so you could have almost endless possibilities of color. I hate what FF14 did with appearance gear and only a limited amount of color dyes they made it a pain in the ass and yes gear appearances became worthless cause you could just wear whatever you want. But just dye I think is a beautiful thing to at least help the clown syndrome out if you come across that problem and if the gear is truly recognizable then you will be able to tell what it is even if its dyed.

    • 61 posts
    December 3, 2018 11:13 AM PST

    I disagree on the dye personally. Changing the color on environmental drops takes away the recognition of the item. The color may be a big part of what makes the item reconginizable. I do think a large assortment of color options should be available for crafting though. You are ordering something to be made from a crafter, you should be able to choose the color scheme upon receiving. Hopefully crafted armor will have multiple areas to recolor/color, so a BP may have 3 or 4 different colors so you can get really creative.

    • 79 posts
    December 3, 2018 12:08 PM PST

    Roxxers said:

    I disagree on the dye personally. Changing the color on environmental drops takes away the recognition of the item. The color may be a big part of what makes the item reconginizable. I do think a large assortment of color options should be available for crafting though. You are ordering something to be made from a crafter, you should be able to choose the color scheme upon receiving. Hopefully crafted armor will have multiple areas to recolor/color, so a BP may have 3 or 4 different colors so you can get really creative.

     

    Yeah thats very true, I was only thinking about the aspect of mismatched end game gear that forms your best in slot. I for sure agree that acclimation gear should have a certain look and color to best represent what its protecting you against. But I guess it matters even in crafting if you want to represent the materials you are using in the design/color of the gear again dye could be a problem. Dye is kind of a double edged sword it gives creative people a way to spend hours forming the right color combinations to make something really unique and then you have a bunch of people who pick the same colors without much thought put into it like full black armor.

    • 1120 posts
    December 3, 2018 12:31 PM PST

    No.

    Let me explain why.  You're assumptions of a dagger that is BiS becoming commonplace can only happen. If the dagger is easy to get.

    When WoW first came out, it was very rare to see players on your server in T2 gear.  And even MORE rare to see them in T3.  This created recognizable gear, that was BiS, that was not obtainable by everyone.

    Nowadays. Because the game difficulty of lower raids is watered down  everyone looks the same (ignoring transmog) idem identity struggles.

    If pantheon creates a robust loot system with difficulty obtaining directly correlated to how good (BiS) an item is, what you're describing is not going to happen. 

    You're idea if item decay looks great on paper. But implemented. Would just be another annoying mechanic to pay attention to (much like durability in current wow).

    Pantheon also seems to not have the loot pinata style system of wow, which should make items both more difficult to obtain and in essence mean more once you do, the last thing I want to see, is me winning a great dagger.  And then in the next boss spawn. Me winning the same dagger a 2nd. 3rd. And 4th time in order to ovoid the degradation that will eventually occur.  Because I assure you, this is exactly what will take place.

    As for your concern with multicolored clown armor.  I personally do not care what my character looks like.  My camera view is usually max distance and therefore it never bothers me.  I'm also not the person who dyes there armor or ever transmogged in WoW.  So I cant comment, because i personally dont think this is an issue.  The one benefit of obtaining full sets of gear being difficult is that you can CLEARLY see when someone has put in the time. When they have a fully fleshed out set of gear and not a multicolored clashing mess.

    • 61 posts
    December 3, 2018 12:32 PM PST

    I think you misunderstood my statement and rereading what i wrote I can see why. What I meant by environmental drops, I was referring to a boss in a dungeon drops a certain item that has a very defining art style. I never like being able to change that look as it became difficult at times to recognize the item for what it was after recoloring. items found in the world on the most part should be unalterable. Most have a history or legacy and should remain intact.

    Although, your reference is actually kind of interesting. If you equiped a number of cold resist pieces of armor, having a light blue hue to you character or a red hue for fire, green for poison, purple for disease would form around you. The more the items, the greater the color. That could be interesting.

    • 752 posts
    December 3, 2018 12:52 PM PST

    For certain games i appreciate and almost need item decay to keep me involved in the game, but for others i strongly disagree. This instance i am strongly disagree. Even from an economic standpoint i disagree. For me - I think the main issue is creating BIS items to begin with. While there may be a regional BIS item based on dungeon popularity there should be multiple variants or comparable replacements of specific items. IMHO This is where EQ1 made a misstep. By allowing early level BIS items it skewed many market values on items incorrectly. The market has still never recovered from these early items even with ease of access.

    • 1860 posts
    December 3, 2018 1:03 PM PST
    The OP makes some assumptions that all, or even most, of the visible item graphics will be unique.

    We can have unique item graphics as per Brad and Chris's vision without it being necessary for every mundane item to be visually unique.
    Making every visible gear piece have a unique visual was never stated.

    That would water down the system so the unique graphics wouldn't matter, but that isn't a concern because that was never the intention.

    • 79 posts
    December 3, 2018 1:15 PM PST

    Roxxers said:

    I think you misunderstood my statement and rereading what i wrote I can see why. What I meant by environmental drops, I was referring to a boss in a dungeon drops a certain item that has a very defining art style. I never like being able to change that look as it became difficult at times to recognize the item for what it was after recoloring. items found in the world on the most part should be unalterable. Most have a history or legacy and should remain intact.

    Although, your reference is actually kind of interesting. If you equiped a number of cold resist pieces of armor, having a light blue hue to you character or a red hue for fire, green for poison, purple for disease would form around you. The more the items, the greater the color. That could be interesting.

     

    Oh I get what you are saying now like if it came from lava cave it would have that molten rock and magma look to it. If from undead beasts it might be tattered and made out of bone yeah you wouldn't that to be pink  haha.

    I will take the credit but unfortunatly you give me to much haha, I didn't mean like colored aura's or it being a certain color because of what it's protecting you against. I mean't like if you were going to cold resist gear it would most likely have a furs and hides look maybe with some light blues thrown in. I do agree that would be super cool though if there was aura's with like little particles effects like snow flakes zipping around if you were wearing cold resist.

    In the end I think I still prefer dyes even though I completely understand where you are coming from and agree. I really don't like the feeling of looking like everyone else because it throws away that feeling of oh this is me. I think the idea of glamore gear is dumb because people running around fighting gods in bathing suits is a little immersion breaking haha. But I think a well made dye system that keeps the armor in mind so it doesn't ruin the details on it could still help get rid of that feeling of looking the same as everyone else.

    • 752 posts
    December 3, 2018 1:17 PM PST

    I kindof feel like the two arguments presented in the OP text aren't mutually dependent? The solution presented could be implemented and the art design issue could still hold true? Transmorg can be a solution or not depending on how you view it. 

    Art design can be simply region oriented? All armor/weapons from this region look this way with a few exceptional/top tier items? However if these are the BIS items you are referring to then i understand what you are getting at. By allowing regional variance and comparable items this can be limited, but still present....

    Its a tricky issue. 

     

    • 287 posts
    December 3, 2018 1:50 PM PST

    kreed99 said:

    For certain games i appreciate and almost need item decay to keep me involved in the game, but for others i strongly disagree. This instance i am strongly disagree. Even from an economic standpoint i disagree. For me - I think the main issue is creating BIS items to begin with. While there may be a regional BIS item based on dungeon popularity there should be multiple variants or comparable replacements of specific items. IMHO This is where EQ1 made a misstep. By allowing early level BIS items it skewed many market values on items incorrectly. The market has still never recovered from these early items even with ease of access.

    There is only ever a single BiS item for a specific class + AA/talent/whatever-the-game-has combo for those who don't take the time to crunch their own numbers.  It's easy to go read whatever is currently up on Elitist Jerks and scratch down a shopping list.  Chances are, though, that despite that list being the best theoretical combination under ideal circumstances at least some of those items would be better swapped with something else for any given player's playstyle or areas fought in, bosses battled, etc, etc.

    Do you own calculations and testing. Then go find the items few others think of as BiS.  If they're tradable you get them for a steal in comparison.  Better for you.

    • 1860 posts
    December 3, 2018 2:26 PM PST

    Trasak said:

      All tradable top tier items or near to it were in the 10s to even 100s of thousands of plat while the items just a bit lower in value were in the 100-500 plat range.

    2 comments on this ^ statement:

    Tradeable top tier items were so rare to make them not a consideration.  Any top tier items that are tradable should be extremely rare.

    I'm 100% good with the few amount of tradeable top tier items in game being being worth 100x or more than second tier items.  It should be that way.  Players should have to "break the bank" if they are able to buy a top tier item.  My preference is that 99.9 % of top tier items are no drop.  Earn it.

    • 752 posts
    December 4, 2018 10:29 AM PST

    True there will always be wishlist items. And i have never been one to follow traditional shopping lists. I am a bargin shopper so i will suffer with a slightly less item for a significant discount in the market. 

     

    My main contention with items in general is that there ARE singular items that are BIS. My theory is that there should be multiple items that are slightly different in stats but not so drastic that one item is sought after more than another. They should be sought after because of regional accessibility. Also, those items should drop in higher tier raid zones and not low level exp zones. I know that Early EQ1 didnt have the knowedge or experience of the past to reconize the fallacy of having BIS items dropping in non raid settings. I get it. But we have learned from that.

     

    But back onto the original topic of item graphics. I feel that given the current state of BIS mentality you will indeed get every tom and jerry having the same graphic of item. That is why my main argument of having multiple items fill a slot with negligible differences but having different art styles is an important one for this discussion. Sure within a region everyone might have the same look, but someone that went out of thier way to find a different look from a different region would be a standout.


    This post was edited by kreed99 at December 4, 2018 10:55 AM PST
    • 388 posts
    December 4, 2018 12:52 PM PST

    no item decay. ever.

    BiS is a thing in every single game that has gear. Pantheon has already stated that you will need situational gear, acclimated gear for the environmental areas etc.  you may have to removed that BiS neck because the only extreme Cold resist gear you have, is a neck piece. Pantheon Has a plan. Sometimes, you just have to embrace the clown. 

    High end gear Should cost a Lot. And should be sellable. limited No Drop gear in the game. 

    And VR has discussed gear and how something like a Cloak of Flames would only give a small percentage of the 36% haste to a lower level character.  A lev 10 in Pantheon using a Cloak of Flames would get 1AC and 1% haste instead of a max lev character getting 30AC and 36% haste.  (made up numbers, jus used as an example) (gear scales with level) 

    • 1303 posts
    December 4, 2018 1:00 PM PST

    Down sides of Itemization based on Recognizable Item Identity

    1)      Over time the rare becomes common and the unique becomes cookie cutter

             No, it doesn't. While more of the item may exist, the occurences that you actually see them in use does not. People don't use the rare item obtained during classic era of a game during the 5th expansion where many better things have been introduced. And being that it doesn't have tactical advantage to obtain it, most players wont bother with the long camp/quest/requirements. 

    2)      Exclusive art is wasted art

             No, it's not. There's a significant value in how a person percieves their uniqueness of character. If they have a visual that's uncommon or extremely rare, there's a pride in showing it off. There's also a desire by others to achieve it, which drives others to further invest in the game. And a much less understood value is that when you see something you've never seen before, including a graphic on an item, you unconciously get a sense that the gameworld is bigger than you. It increases the perception of scope of the gameworld, and it makes you wonder "what else is out there I've never seen!".

    3)      When dignity conflicts with BiS, we all look like clowns

             This assumes that the BiS gear has the worst graphics. This is avoidable to a point, but all people have different opinions of what looks clownish. So you might think you look like a clown while others things you look pretty badass. Also, this is only true if your vanity outweighs your desire to achieve. Neither is wrong, but the fact that the personal choice exists brings benefits at one time or another to everyone. 

    4)      Blingflation is almost worse than Mudflation

             This I agree with. But it assumes that the unique art must necessarily be over-the-top blingy. That doesn't have to be true. And the team has already stated that the art direction is going to consistently be more a traditional high fantasy look rather than a flashy look. Having a otherwise ordinary looking iron sword that also has gold runes down the blade is not blingflation, yet it still adds that uniqueness that people will recognize, then want to investigate, and dream about maybe someday achieving.

     

    For all of the economic/lifecycle issues presented, there are at least a couple of alternatives that bring resolutions without introducing item decay (which I despise). 

    - Allow for items to be broken down to obtain materials for crafting. (This is already stated as a potential, if not an outright goal of this title.)  Perhaps only rare items that are broken down supply rare crafting materials?

    - Allow for items to be converted into displayable player housing items.

    The combination of these remove items from the gameworld, increase the possibility of commerce through tradesklling, decrease abundance of rare items in the gameworld thus reducing their rarity and "wow" factor, and more.

    • 96 posts
    December 4, 2018 2:59 PM PST

    Well, plenty of opinions/arguements have been presented against Item Decay...so all I have to say in agreement is:

     

    Item loss is bad, m'kay? 

    • 3237 posts
    December 4, 2018 3:17 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Quick comment:  whatever the specific death penalty turns out to be, I can say now that we're not going with an item system where your items wear down and need to be repaired.  

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/-/post-create/quote_id/36914


    While this doesn't specifically rule out item decay (I guess it could be implemented without the option to repair?)  --  it does seem that item degradation in general has been ruled out for Pantheon.  I think there are some interesting concepts that could be utilized with item degradation but it would have to be pretty situational.  An example would be a piece of situational gear (armor/weapon) that wears down in certain environments/climates/atmospheres (it's also really useful in those same environments) that needs to be recharged or reobtained.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like that but it would have to be the rare exception rather than any kind of rule.

     


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 4, 2018 3:18 PM PST
    • 560 posts
    December 4, 2018 3:46 PM PST

    Irriaden said:

    Well, plenty of opinions/arguements have been presented against Item Decay...so all I have to say in agreement is:

     

    Item loss is bad, m'kay? 

     

    Well said