Forums » Pantheon Classes

The Hybrid Slippery Slope

    • 945 posts
    May 19, 2020 11:40 AM PDT

    The devs and a lot of us have said that there will be no "hybrids" which is true (by definition of hybrid being a combination of 2 classes).  Some people are referring to the EQ SHD, RNG and PAL when they say "hybrid, but I don't think the O.P. meant that as much as they meant fulfilling a role other than what their primary mechanic was designed for - which is another definition of "hybrid" for some MMO players.  In which case, there will be classes that can fulfill multiple roles.  So depending on your definition of "hybrid", something like a Druid who can do damage as well as heal could be considered "hybrid".  I say this in direct response to the O.P., which I know was almost 2 years ago, but this is the kind of "hybrid" the O.P. was referencing in regard to WoW; using the example of the shadow priest filling a DPS role.  I would bet money that if there is a cleric shaman and druid (of similar gear/level/skill) in a party, the druid and shaman will be doing DPS... likewise with DL, War and Pal.  The pure DPS roles (with the exception of the Monk (so far)) would be the classes that aren't "hybrid" by the O.P.s definition.  

    Also in reference to the O.P., You are correct that this is exactly why the Warrior will be the "tank of tanks" and the cleric will be the "healer of healers"... because the other tanks and healers can be considered hybrid (by being able to fulfill multiple roles).  I think the other people saying that you are incorrect will be in for a big suprise and like you said, "people will start hearing the whining of the hybrids".

    • 2752 posts
    May 19, 2020 12:34 PM PDT

    Even though they have said they do not want a "best in role" type of game and that classes will only excel in their primary role? Okay. I think the big surprise will be yours, though it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

    • 1479 posts
    May 19, 2020 1:01 PM PDT

    Darch's "usual" argument here. Nothing to see and nothing to be kept.

    • 945 posts
    May 19, 2020 8:21 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Even though they have said they do not want a "best in role" type of game and that classes will only excel in their primary role? Okay. I think the big surprise will be yours, though it really shouldn't be a surprise. 

    Joppa actually said the opposite of this... on multiple occassions.  The cleric will be "best" single target healer (i.e. tank healer).  I don't know why people keep thinking otherwise.  Yes, the devs have said that each class will be able to perform their roles "effectively", but some classes will absolutely be better than others.  Here's just one of those times:
    https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY?t=672

    • 2752 posts
    May 20, 2020 11:52 AM PDT

    Having the strongest single target direct healing does not in any way make them the "healer of healers" or best in role class. 

    • 1479 posts
    May 20, 2020 12:12 PM PDT

    Unfortunately that's what happens when you put your wishes as truth in arguments. They said classes will be balanced and will perform equally, with different edges over situations. By no means it place any class above others until there is a certitude Tank taken damage will be either mostly physical (or only for hard bosses), or raid damage will be the main issue, or countering period damage, etc..

     

    Some still try hard to push their dusty ideas of how the game should be as how it will be, but no argument comes to support that.

    • 2752 posts
    May 20, 2020 12:29 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Unfortunately that's what happens when you put your wishes as truth in arguments. They said classes will be balanced and will perform equally, with different edges over situations. By no means it place any class above others until there is a certitude Tank taken damage will be either mostly physical (or only for hard bosses), or raid damage will be the main issue, or countering period damage, etc..

     

    Some still try hard to push their dusty ideas of how the game should be as how it will be, but no argument comes to support that.

    God help us if the game is a simple tank and spank where most mobs lock to the tank easily and AoEs or other party damage/effects/ailments are very rare. 

     

    Good thing even in Halnir in those earlier PAs we could see a fair number of mobs with AoEs or damage shields on top of the surprise environmental mobs popping out to do big damage to various group members. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at May 20, 2020 12:31 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    May 20, 2020 12:41 PM PDT

    hots will be very valuable, especially if you have to deal with ticks + aoe bursts :

     

    Mantle of the mists plus hand of aivelu will be way more efficient than just doing direct healings. So many things to look forward and so sad to see it pidgeonholed in 20 years old strategies.

    • 945 posts
    May 21, 2021 4:08 AM PDT

    @Iksar, @Mauvais... I don’t suppose you would like to eat your words about there not being classes that can flex now or later? To my “hypothetical” point of if a Druid can flex DPS (or CC) and the cleric can’t, the cleric will be the healer of the group... likewise if DL can flex DPS, and the PAL can flex heals or CC, the warrior will be the tank.


    This post was edited by Darch at May 21, 2021 4:23 AM PDT
    • 5 posts
    May 21, 2021 5:07 AM PDT

    From the youtube of the guys in the crystal cave, you REALLY noticed the increase in time-to-kill when the rogue was stuck on - might I say - very very effective CC.

     

    Why bring a chanter? just have lots of rogues!

     

    I'm all about flexing (as they called it) but after watching that youtube video I think my definition of flexing is different to the devs.

    Take Eq for example. SHD, WAR, PAL were obviously the best tanks, and for raids, only really WAR.

    But for 6 mans, any of those were god-tier. If you couldn't get a plate class, Ranger and Monk was fine to tank - provided you had a cleric and backup (druid) heals or shaman slows.

    Having a ranger tank and druid healer without a shaman lead to significant med time between pulls as the damage mitigation was lower that the mana spent on heals. It just wasn't profitable - until they buffed/nerfed everything to blandness.

    I saw a Yaulping battle cleric one time who liked to tank. shouldn't have been that way, but it worked... with a shaman slowing, enchanter hasting and debuffing, druid healing like mad and rogues for DPS. And only on light blue mobs.

    I was once in an all necro LDoN group, so I tanked. It was high risk, but with crazy risk comes crazy reward. TTK was very low and with all the lifetaps and hots it was doable. I wouldn't recommend it as a strategy as the necro CC was not wonderful and we had a very experienced group who knew their classes, but it was very fun. Loot rolls sucked though.

    What I've never seen is a wizard tank. Or druid, mage, enchanter (except when charm breaks for as little time as possible) etc...

     

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that knowing ALL OF the classes strengths and weaknesses, and how your character can fill a niche is probably more important than "the trinity".


    This post was edited by TheOzzie at May 21, 2021 5:10 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    May 21, 2021 12:15 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    @Iksar, @Mauvais... I don’t suppose you would like to eat your words about there not being classes that can flex now or later? To my “hypothetical” point of if a Druid can flex DPS (or CC) and the cleric can’t, the cleric will be the healer of the group... likewise if DL can flex DPS, and the PAL can flex heals or CC, the warrior will be the tank.

    No because flexing isn't filling a role. A rogue flexing into CC isn't filling the support role, and is generally a poor replacement to an actual support. A DL that can put out some unsustained high burst DPS or Paladin that can do some high burst but unsustained healing does not change anything. 

    • 150 posts
    May 21, 2021 2:19 PM PDT

    This brings up an interesting point though. With two or three rogues in group, it would be possible for them to alternate crowd control responsibilities between themselves, sharing that support role together. And where before, in games like classic EQ, having two of the same non-DPS class was ineffecient, in this case having a second dire lord or paladin wouldn't be unheard of. That would also be true for warriors, even without flexing, since they have the Wall of Shields ability.


    This post was edited by Leevolen at May 21, 2021 3:25 PM PDT
    • 19 posts
    May 21, 2021 4:10 PM PDT

    They are working on class design right now and people need to be vocal on this issue. What VR said about not having a Hybrid Tax needs to be true. This game can not decide to try fix it years later like EQ and wow did.

    • 38 posts
    May 24, 2021 12:06 PM PDT

    Leevolen said:

    This brings up an interesting point though. With two or three rogues in group, it would be possible for them to alternate crowd control responsibilities between themselves, sharing that support role together....

    I hope circumstances like this type of duty relay are alleviated by the diminishing returns of effects being mob-side instead of player-side -- meaning even though different rogues keep CC-ing a mob, the mob's resistance grows with each use rather than the same rogue getting weaker at it with each use on a mob. Therefore, when that rogue switches out another rogue, the ability is back to full power and the mob is mezzed for the full time again.

    That small implementation could help incentivize the use of multiple CC abilities ostensibly from different classes.

    • 150 posts
    May 24, 2021 5:36 PM PDT

    NathHaw said:

    I hope circumstances like this type of duty relay are alleviated by the diminishing returns of effects being mob-side instead of player-side -- meaning even though different rogues keep CC-ing a mob, the mob's resistance grows with each use rather than the same rogue getting weaker at it with each use on a mob. Therefore, when that rogue switches out another rogue, the ability is back to full power and the mob is mezzed for the full time again.

    That small implementation could help incentivize the use of multiple CC abilities ostensibly from different classes.

    Not only would that help with onboarding, but it would also encourage rogues to show more restraint offensively, since dying to aggro would handicap the group in more ways than one. Because of this, rogues would begin to see themselves as a group within the larger group or raid, relying on each other to remain effective in their flex role. Having to coordinate their efforts instead of assigning themselves each to a target, rogues would need to reposition throughout a fight depending on the role demanded of them at any given moment, from DPS to CC, which could put them out of range of a heal, banner, song, etc. This would create more opportunities for human error as well, considering the many NPC dispositions/manifestations along with fractures/climates.

    The full potential of their CC would not be realized without the presence and competence of other rogues. This would offer one incentive to group with other rogues, even with class-specific loot being in high demand. And that camaraderie would offset the dirk measuring contests that take place whenever rogues try to prove their worth through DPS meters. Not only that but a single rogue would still be valued for postponement crowd control, to take the burden off of more capable classes that might need a quick AFK.

    As for the NPC side of things, it could become more evasive to the rogue, negating each attempt outright or the NPC could instead become more resistant, breaking CC earlier and earlier before eventually becoming immune to that specific rogue (perhaps diminishing over time, if left untouched). There is a lot of potential here to consider, not only due to the diversity of NPCs but climates as well.

    Example: An arachnid-type NPC might require a couple of rogues to hold into place, using Springwire Trap and Caltrops, what with all of those legs. But if that NPC is the inhabitant of a toxic climate, would the effectiveness of mesmerizing toxins (from Smoke Trick) be lessened?

    The nuances of other rogue abilities are also fun to consider...

    Would Hidden Strike be ineffective against NPCs that are blind or without eyes? Elementals, golems, skeletons, etc. Would it be more effective against NPCs with fewer/larger eyes? Cyclopes, beholders, kraken, etc.

    • 150 posts
    May 24, 2021 6:54 PM PDT

    But as you said, groups full of rogues collectively solving the problem of crowd control wouldn't go over well with bards and enchanters. Still, the threat generated from attempting to CC should create enough risk to dissuade the average rogue (without the appropriate mastery points) from volunteering to take over that role altogether. Perhaps some interaction between the crowd control abilities of these different classes would go a long way. It's already been stated that certain spells can be expected work together in unique ways, similar to a chemistry set; whether that includes CC though, only time will tell. 


    This post was edited by Leevolen at May 24, 2021 7:04 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    May 25, 2021 11:49 AM PDT

    Leevolen said:

    But as you said, groups full of rogues collectively solving the problem of crowd control wouldn't go over well with bards and enchanters. Still, the threat generated from attempting to CC should create enough risk to dissuade the average rogue (without the appropriate mastery points) from volunteering to take over that role altogether. Perhaps some interaction between the crowd control abilities of these different classes would go a long way. It's already been stated that certain spells can be expected work together in unique ways, similar to a chemistry set; whether that includes CC though, only time will tell. 

    Would sit just fine with bards/enchanters (whose role is Support, not just CC). The amount of support and options one would have to give up to have a group with multiple rogues would balance that out quite well. 

    • 1860 posts
    May 25, 2021 12:42 PM PDT

    I know you are still beating that "support includes more than just CC" drum.  I agree it does in theory, but when players are putting together a group and they already have a tank/healer and dps they most likely want the best possible CC they can get.  CC is the focus.  Buffs or other benefits tend to be a lesser concern.  (or if it's an area that doesn't require CC they want another dps/off tank/2nd healing class...not a buffer/support class at that point)

     Would you prefer to have a CC class with added buffs if CC is all that matters?  Of course.  


    The issue where the "support is more than CC" discussion breaks down is that not every fight is going to require CC.  So if the rogue does more damage in those single mob (boss type fights) and can cover the CC until then...I can imagine a scenario where rogues are preferred over enchanters or other support classes. 

    As far as the group is concerned, that enchanter might not be as good in single mob encounters due to lower damage contribution.  The rogue can be good enough CC in multi mob encounters and also their damage is considered better vs single target.  There is a give and take there.

    Which class ends up being most desirable to groups depends on a lot of variables.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as "support is more than CC". 

    The support role with CC won't always be favored over a damage role with flex CC.

    • 2752 posts
    May 25, 2021 3:00 PM PDT

    If support is properly formed as a role then they should be far more valuable than adding a 4th DPS. They should be a force multiplier and their buffs to the group combined with their own damage should easily edge out just having another DPS, let alone the sustain they give to mana classes or whatever other resources they help restore or unique debuffs they have to reduce incoming damage.

     

    We can argue hypotheticals all day though. At the end of the day I just trust VR to not completely bungle the support role by having CC be all or most of what they are good for. 

    • 150 posts
    May 25, 2021 6:16 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    The amount of support and options one would have to give up to have a group with multiple rogues would balance that out quite well. 

    Iksar said:

    If support is properly formed as a role then they should be far more valuable than adding a 4th DPS. They should be a force multiplier and their buffs to the group combined with their own damage should easily edge out just having another DPS, let alone the sustain they give to mana classes or whatever other resources they help restore or unique debuffs they have to reduce incoming damage.

    An important feature to mention here is that buffs won't fade over time. So presumably any player with a support alt could log over once, buff everyone, and switch back to their main. Buffs may function differently with bards, of course, and debuffs from any of support class would still keep them relevant. However, an overabundance of rogues, all capable of flexing into crowd control on and off, could leave the support class(es) feeling one-dimensional. This isn't a tremendous concern since, by the sounds of it, adjustments are already being made to the rogue class. The balancing act of who gets what power is fun to consider, that's all.

    Regardless, knowing that the NPCs are being made to act/react with more complexity, support classes may find themselves in higher demand than ever before. 

    And again, reading through the ability descriptions, rogue CC does seem to have its limits. If the wording is to be interpreted literally, Springwire Trap and Caltrops would only provide opportunities for crowd control in the path of NPCs, meaning neither would be effective against NPCs that swim, slither, climb, fly, levitate, etc. 

    Scatter caltrops at the target location. All enemies will have their movement speed reduced by 50% while stepping on the caltrops.
    Place a trap that will wrap around the feet of the first enemy to approach, rooting them in place for 10 seconds.

    If that is the case, than rogues would be able provide situational but still relatively broad crowd control. With the exception of Smoke Trick, a lot of NPCs would have a direct answer to rogue CC or at least a workaround. Wizards (Flash), Warriors (Close the Gap), Shaman (Walk the Ages)—all of which could be locked down by the traditional CC classes using more robust spells and abilities.

    • 1860 posts
    May 25, 2021 8:07 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    If support is properly formed as a role then they should be far more valuable than adding a 4th DPS. They should be a force multiplier and their buffs to the group combined with their own damage should easily edge out just having another DPS, let alone the sustain they give to mana classes or whatever other resources they help restore or unique debuffs they have to reduce incoming damage.

    Do you really think a support classes group buffs +their own damage should out damage a class whose primary role is damage?

    That would be horribly implemented/balanced if that was the case.  Thats just silliness.

    • 2752 posts
    May 26, 2021 10:26 AM PDT

    Leevolen said:

     An important feature to mention here is that buffs won't fade over time. So presumably any player with a support alt could log over once, buff everyone, and switch back to their main. Buffs may function differently with bards, of course, and debuffs from any of support class would still keep them relevant.

    Not sure where that is from, IIRC you can only currently buff your own group and that buff only lasts as long as the ability remains on the caster's bar. And that assumes many, most, or the better support buffs would be long duration spells. I am thinking they will be much more active use buffs with shorter durations and higher potency given LAS design. 

    There was some talk about buffing non-group members but with scaled down/weaker potency and a limited duration but I don't recall VR deciding to go that route or not. 

    philo said:

    Do you really think a support classes group buffs +their own damage should out damage a class whose primary role is damage?

    That would be horribly implemented/balanced if that was the case.  Thats just silliness.

    When buffing a whole group? Absolutely. Support buffing 3 other DPS + the tank + their own damage should 100% be a better solution than adding a fourth DPS instead. 

    • 945 posts
    May 26, 2021 11:26 AM PDT

    @Philo & @Iksar - I can confidently say that the "support" role will also include resource regen, which will trump CC as a primary reason for including a "support" class in your group; ESPECIALLY if their resource regen utility requires them to be in your group (unlike the Clarity line of buffs in EQ).

    CC won't always be needed due to the abiilty to single pull or split mobs, but resource regen is always desired... and then the added bonus of having the superior CC in the offchance things go poorly without sacrificing another role by flexing.

    Personally, if say a Bard's buffs increased the overall performance of the group by mitigating damage the tank receives, increases DPS output, increase resource regen, improves healing while simultaneously being able to do a little DPS themselves and CC without having to "flex", I will choose the support over a second rogue every time.


    This post was edited by Darch at May 26, 2021 11:39 AM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    May 26, 2021 11:42 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    philo said:

    Do you really think a support classes group buffs +their own damage should out damage a class whose primary role is damage?

    That would be horribly implemented/balanced if that was the case.  Thats just silliness.

    When buffing a whole group? Absolutely. Support buffing 3 other DPS + the tank + their own damage should 100% be a better solution than adding a fourth DPS instead. 



    I strongly disagree.  There are plenty of buffs from support classes that won't increase damage.  If that support class brings enough +damage increasing buffs+their own damage that they out damage a pure damage class in a group...plus they also bring other buffs that increase defense and supply other benefits, that is simply poor design.  That's unbalanced and poorly implemented.

    In order to be balanced, that support classes buffs that increase damage, plus their own damage need to be less overall damage than a pure damage class in the group.  The other buffs that support class provides, that aren't damage focused, (defensive buffs, regens, etc) will then provide additional utility to make them equally balanced.
    (that is speaking from purely balancing a buffer vs a damage role...not taking CC or other abilities into account which would obviously tip the scale further).  I'm glad you aren't balancing classes iksar lol.


    This post was edited by philo at May 26, 2021 11:45 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    May 26, 2021 2:06 PM PDT

    philo said:

    I strongly disagree.  There are plenty of buffs from support classes that won't increase damage.  If that support class brings enough +damage increasing buffs+their own damage that they out damage a pure damage class in a group...plus they also bring other buffs that increase defense and supply other benefits, that is simply poor design.  That's unbalanced and poorly implemented.

    In order to be balanced, that support classes buffs that increase damage, plus their own damage need to be less overall damage than a pure damage class in the group.  The other buffs that support class provides, that aren't damage focused, (defensive buffs, regens, etc) will then provide additional utility to make them equally balanced.
    (that is speaking from purely balancing a buffer vs a damage role...not taking CC or other abilities into account which would obviously tip the scale further).  I'm glad you aren't balancing classes iksar lol.

    Fine, agree to disagree. Buffing the damage output of 5 (4 if healer does no damage) others by even as little as 10-15% + the enchanters damage should be enough to equal or outweigh adding a 4th DPS if even by a few percent. It also requires a full group to achieve as the value of this drops notably when fewer members are in a group, especially fewer DPS.