We really need someting interesting to do while waiting for Pantheon, it seems, because every second thread turns into an endless argument over small differences. :)
I don't worry one second that the planned subscription model is viable and will be able to keep Pantheon alive for years. Had I doubted that, I would never have pledged.
I'm much more concerned about what "playing for free the first 10 or so levels" could result in.
Jabir - as I recalled a lot of people argued for a separate server for free trial players. This went back and forth with no real consensus.
The only relevant opinion, of course, is VR's and I'm sure they won't really focus on this until near release. Why should they - things may change?
I stay as far away from free to play games as I possibly can. No money to put back into them, no development, no direction = not worth playing. They are usually full of people who can't stick to one game. My cousin is the biggest game hopper, only plays free games, and sadly his type of gamer makes up a large part of the gaming community. These particular players to me are toxic, they are here for a short while, complain while they're here, and then are gone after they have complaind enough to convince others it isn't worth playing. He tries to get me into a game nowadays I just laugh at him. I don't want to play MMO's with those people. I want people who are invested in the community of the game, and have an interest in keeping it in good standing, and enjoyable.
This game looks great, but lets be realistic, MMOs coming out in the next few years are probably going to be amazing.
Amazon is making an MMO with like a billion pound budget, unfortunately it will be a survival MMO which is dreadful.
No on is going to still be paying for a small time MMO with slightly oldschool like features and mechanics.
If the game comes out with a box price, and charges per expansion and has a cash shop for just cosmetics, i think it will do fine.
Devs need to remember that their players are not just playing their MMO.
Subscriptions sometimes force players to choose between mmos, it also persoanlly for me makes me feel like i need to rush, to get my moneys worth.
P.S never remove a single cosmetic form the cash shop.
Collectors hate it.
Grimseethe said:Devs need to remember that their players are not just playing their MMO.
I'm not sure this is right.
I think and hope that the game will be played exclusively for years by a suficiently large number of loyal players. The entire game concept is such that it will hardly be played at all by those who shop around for the newest and greatest entertainment fix, subscription or no subscription. Pantheon is only going to be fun if you dedicate your gaming life to it because progress takes time and effort.
Grimseethe said:This game looks great, but lets be realistic, MMOs coming out in the next few years are probably going to be amazing.
Amazon is making an MMO with like a billion pound budget, unfortunately it will be a survival MMO which is dreadful.
No on is going to still be paying for a small time MMO with slightly oldschool like features and mechanics.
If the game comes out with a box price, and charges per expansion and has a cash shop for just cosmetics, i think it will do fine.
Devs need to remember that their players are not just playing their MMO.
Subscriptions sometimes force players to choose between mmos, it also persoanlly for me makes me feel like i need to rush, to get my moneys worth.
P.S never remove a single cosmetic form the cash shop.
Collectors hate it.
If that's the way you feel then Pantheon may not be the game for you. And that's ok. Pantheon isn't going to be for everyone. While, yes, they are in this to make a profit, they are NOT in it for a cash grab. They've already said that. That's one of the reason there are *NO* cash shops. They understand and have planned for, being a niche game with a feww tens of thousands of subs.
Grimseethe said:No on is going to still be paying for a small time MMO with slightly oldschool like features and mechanics.
That may be what you believe, and that’s fine. However, myself and others are on the opposite end. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be here. Pantheon is not going for the masses; it is going for the community and some others who would like to join us. For example, hundreds of thousands of us played Brad’s games (Old EQ and VG) and are returning. People from other ‘older’ mmo‘s are coming here. People new to the genre are interested. We will be totally fine in supporting our game for years to come. Your point is taken, but many people would disagree with that.
Subscriptions *are* the way to go, Grimseethe.
Someone that wants to play 20 different games at the same time and will maybe dedicate an hour a week to Pantheon isn't likely to be a major revenue source and isn't the target market the business model should be designed to attract.
The rush to free play destroyed or seriously weakened most if not all MMO communities in games that jumped on the bandwagon. When you can play for free the community attracts trolls that do nothing but spam chat and occasionally play a bit and very young people that cannot pay subscriptions themselves or talk their parents into doing so. Lowering the maturity level a great deal.
Granted most free players are not trolls and are as mature as the average subscriber *but* the small minority that are as I describe have a wildly disproportionate and negative impact on the game community.
I like the idea of having tiered subscriptions. Base subscription at $14.99/month gives you 1 active character slot (maybe a 1 week cooldown on swapping active character). VIP subscription $19.99 gives you 10 character slots, all active. You could also do additional perks for VIP subscriptions such as increased bank storage and account level shared storage. Perhaps if the game lets you set up vendors to sell your crafted gear, that could be a VIP perk. If they include the ability to equip cosmetic items (i.e. WoW's transmog system), that could also be a VIP perk.
It becomes a bit touchy when you start considering perks that could be considered "pay to win" such as discounts for repairs or reagents and other items. I would avoid this if possible, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker to me personally.
The clear advantage of setting up the subscription service this way is that you make the game more attractive to people who aren't completely invested in the game and may just want to try it out for a few months (beyond whatever trial account options VR has available). You also have an option for people that are really into the game but have financial limitations that make paying more than $15/month difficult. But at the same time, you get 33% more revenue from the VIP players while still offering an extremely good value in terms of enteratainment/dollar.
Since we have been disagreeing in at least one other thread recently I might as well try to balance out my karma by agreeing here. Tiered subscriptions can be beneficial.
Paying for extra character slots was done way before MMOs switched to free play - it is not a form of microtransaction. Personally I don't care whether the charge is per month or lump sum (but one slot for a basic subscription is too little).
Including pay-to-win benefits in higher priced tiers wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either but I doubt if it would go over well here.
Tiered subscriptions could be a thing but why start the lowest tier at a price that old MMO's gave you the full experience for haha. The top tier subscription should be 14 dollars anymore then that and you might as well just buy a new game plenty of sales of full triple A games on steam for that kind of money.
I hear your comments folks, but GW2 isnt struggling as a buy to play game.
A cash shop for cosmetics only i'm not sure how most people could care, you could buy a single cosmetic each year as a treat for yourself if you wanted to.
I persoanally don't know any gamer who just plays a single MMO, considring the huge aount that are coming in the next couple of years.
zoltar said:I like the idea of having tiered subscriptions. Base subscription at $14.99/month gives you 1 active character slot (maybe a 1 week cooldown on swapping active character). VIP subscription $19.99 gives you 10 character slots, all active. You could also do additional perks for VIP subscriptions such as increased bank storage and account level shared storage. Perhaps if the game lets you set up vendors to sell your crafted gear, that could be a VIP perk. If they include the ability to equip cosmetic items (i.e. WoW's transmog system), that could also be a VIP perk.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of tiered subscriptions, I severely disagree with the idea of $14.99 being the "base" and only providing 1 character slot. In any other MMO, that gives you full access, and I think Pantheon should follow suit. At the very least, I will NOT be subscribing to Pantheon if I have to pay more than the standard $14.99 for full access to the game. FFXIV has a cheaper subscription for 1 character slot only. That I would be fine with. I disagree with tying bank storage or marketplace access or whatever to additional payment (would DEFINITELY hate to see wardrobe systems locked behind a paywall like that). That feels way too "freemium" to me.
VR has made comments that they will stick to the "industry standard" of 15$ per month. For that to include anything less than a full, standard subscription would be deceptive and I don't believe they would do that to us.
That ^ being said, I fully expect that 15$ per month to be for the long term, year or more block, subscription cost. Expect shorter time frames to cost more.
Man I hate F2P games. I've spent so much money on them it sucks lol. Rather not have a F2P with micro Transactions. Although with some F2P games that aren't P2W types...like Path of Exile, I will buy a supporter pack too well...support them lol. I already put a nice chunk of money, for me anyways, in this game for Champion Pledge so I don't mind the supporting mind set...but P2W or shops kill me because of temption and you don't earn the things you get. So even if you buy what you want it doesn't really make you happy for a long period of time..or that you are really proud of it.
Anyways, I know a few people who were worried about this also on the forums. I am pretty sure there is a live stream where a question was asked if they have a way of sustaining this game with a niche population and Brad, I think, said that they had a model that only needs around 20,000 players to sustain...soo its cheap.
Naunet said:zoltar said:I like the idea of having tiered subscriptions. Base subscription at $14.99/month gives you 1 active character slot (maybe a 1 week cooldown on swapping active character). VIP subscription $19.99 gives you 10 character slots, all active. You could also do additional perks for VIP subscriptions such as increased bank storage and account level shared storage. Perhaps if the game lets you set up vendors to sell your crafted gear, that could be a VIP perk. If they include the ability to equip cosmetic items (i.e. WoW's transmog system), that could also be a VIP perk.While I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of tiered subscriptions, I severely disagree with the idea of $14.99 being the "base" and only providing 1 character slot. In any other MMO, that gives you full access, and I think Pantheon should follow suit. At the very least, I will NOT be subscribing to Pantheon if I have to pay more than the standard $14.99 for full access to the game. FFXIV has a cheaper subscription for 1 character slot only. That I would be fine with. I disagree with tying bank storage or marketplace access or whatever to additional payment (would DEFINITELY hate to see wardrobe systems locked behind a paywall like that). That feels way too "freemium" to me.
Touche. Perhaps the base subscription I mentioned would be too restricted. How about this?
Base Subscription- $14.99
VIP Subscription- $19.99
Wow just read all 5 pages lots of passionate people on here and sadly not seen a single mention of POUND sterling so I want to add my bit! I played EQ1 1999 and Vanguard too for to many years and paid yearly subscription in advance for both games. Hell I even pay $OE loads of money from 2002 for the Ledgends servers when they went live if my memory sereves me right it was 40 green backs a month or over the pond dosh!
So in my personal opinion if you feel you are getting value for money you will donate whatever you feel is worthy per month and while every person has different commitments there has to be some middle ground for all types of subscriptions in a game like this, the shrewed money would be on multiple payment systems. Obviously there is no 100% system for everyone and therefore having different pricing models could be the way to go to please everyone.
There will be the gamers who will live for the next 10 to 15 years playing this game and some who drift as it's either to hard or not their cup of tea and that's cool too. First three months seems to be the measuring stick over the last ten years to see if the game passes that then it's for a good while. Now from the evidence I've seen and the feedback published thus far I'm pretty stoked and just hope the game makes it live before I pop off as I'm not getting any younger.
The thing is to many server will spread out the community that's my only concern but I'd be happy to pay for a legends type server and from many of the prices I've seen mentioned in here there is room for such a server which would more than pay for two types of server IMO. I understand not everyone can afford £15/15 euros/$15 or whatever the equivlent is in each currency they decide, but they have to start somewhere. But for me the FTP would not work even if offered from past experiance you see poor community and mass farmers spamming RTM constantly and that becomes old real fast. If I see that it tells me that the company do not really care about the community enough to stamp it out.
So for a fair sub per month with no RMT farmers I'm sure that the subscription model would rule them all...Loading please wait!!! So I'm in with a Legend sub where do I sign............?
Asbo by name Asbo by nature ;)
kreed99 said: Transmog items are borderline as they dont impact gameplay, but this is the beginning of having a cash shop which most people want to avoid.
Eh, they're really two completely separate issues. If the devs don't want to have a cash shop and sell cosmetic items, then that will never be an issue. If they decide they want to do it, then nothing's going to stop them.
VR has been pretty clear that they want your character's appearance to reflect your achievements in the game, so I wouldn't worry about a cash shop and paid cosmetic items. Transmog will just mean you can use your favorite set of armor that you worked to obtain for your apperance instead of the hodge-podge collection of random items that happen to give you the best stats currently but makes you look like a nitwit.
Grimseethe said:Devs need to remember that their players are not just playing their MMO.
Just to that point, I have played a total of about 5 different video games in 10 years. That is counting anything I played for more than an hour.
If this game is what the devs are saying it's going to be, then I hope to subscribe and play this game exclusively for several years... I don't think I'm totally alone on this either.
I know it's anecdotal, but I think it's naive to assume no one is looking to subcribe to a game like this.