Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Open World Housing vs Instanced Housing

    • 696 posts
    October 22, 2018 4:50 PM PDT

    This is why I am not really for houses to begin with. But if pantheon is set on houses I still think they need to be in designated areas in the living world..like in Thronefest, and have one per account. Even if there is space left from this you still have to account for the people that will come to the game later on.

    I think it is a good idea for open world housing to have money sinks in them, like a bills you have to pay,...and have to do stuff to upkeep them, maybe like 2 - 3 mini quests a week. This will greatly hinder hoarders with multiple accounts. Now it can still be done..but will require people with no lives to do that.

    • 646 posts
    October 22, 2018 4:55 PM PDT

    Watemper said:I think it is a good idea for open world housing to have money sinks in them, like a bills you have to pay,...and have to do stuff to upkeep them, maybe like 2 - 3 mini quests a week. This will greatly hinder hoarders with multiple accounts. Now it can still be done..but will require people with no lives to do that.

    Limited availability, limited customization... and then on top of that, making it a pain in the butt to hold onto... no thank you. I'll take instanced housing any day of the week over that!

    • 696 posts
    October 22, 2018 4:57 PM PDT

    And I will take what I suggested over instanced housing any day of the week.....so what is your point.


    This post was edited by Watemper at October 22, 2018 4:57 PM PDT
    • 37 posts
    October 22, 2018 5:35 PM PDT

    I like the idea of Open World Housing but not sure how to implement in a way that keeps it fair and everyone happy. I think it would have to be instanced housing.

    • 1019 posts
    October 22, 2018 5:36 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    And I will take what I suggested over instanced housing any day of the week.....so what is your point.

    This game isn't real life.  We don't need to (in game) return to our house and spend 1/2 of the day in it.  

    Nor in real life are we going to log in every day, maybe even two.  Some people, omg, might not log in for even 3 days in a row.

    • 1281 posts
    October 22, 2018 5:50 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Open World Housing vs Instanced Housing, which do you prefer and why? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

     

    Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1054326414256685056

    Here is my take on it.
     
    Let me preface this by saying that I am *VERY* against instancing for adventure zones under any circumstances, your choices may vary.
     
    That being said, I would like to see both. Instanced "apartments" in inns or apartment buildings (aka shared housing locations) of varying floor plans and sizes for "those on a budget" and non-instanced houses for the people that can afford it/want to spend the money on it.

    This post was edited by Kalok at October 22, 2018 5:50 PM PDT
    • 844 posts
    October 22, 2018 5:59 PM PDT

    I guess it's interesting to some to have these discussions.

    But frankly, any hint of housing in a game called Pantheon is truly many years away, if at all.

    Sorry to say.

    • 264 posts
    October 22, 2018 6:14 PM PDT

     I vastly prefer open world non instanced housing. However I am fine with having "apartments" for new/low level players that are instanced so everyone can enjoy at least some form of player housing even if they are extremely casual players. The reason I prefer non instanced housing overall is because 1)everyone will see it 2)limited real estate = prestige 3)I prefer content being in the actual game world. I played ArcheAge and absolutely loved the housing system, but I also really enjoyed what FF14 and BDO offered for new players. But yeah instancing really takes a lot away from player housing and should only be used as the lowest/base level housing tier. People who hate non instanced player housing tend to be the types that want the "best" plots of land, or those who desire to have a gigantic mansion but don't want to fork over the massive amount of currency in a limited real estate market. My issue with this is that instanced housing is completely divorced from the game world...let's say you have an instanced mansion on a beautiful lake...nobody is going to see it other than maybe your close friends. You may as well play a single player game at that rate.

    • 646 posts
    October 22, 2018 6:29 PM PDT

    Ziegfried said:People who hate non instanced player housing tend to be the types that want the "best" plots of land, or those who desire to have a gigantic mansion but don't want to fork over the massive amount of currency in a limited real estate market.

    Absolutely inaccurate. I put a ridiculous amount of work (time farming decor, time earning plat to buy decor, time painstakingly placing all the freaking decor) into creating my skyplot builds in WildStar. Wanting instanced housing has NOTHING to do with not wanting to "fork over" money for real estate or just wanting the "best plots of land" for no work. I simply place no value on the "prestige" of limited real estate and find that non-instanced housing completely lacks all of the aspects of housing that I enjoy.

    • 1479 posts
    October 23, 2018 1:58 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Ziegfried said:People who hate non instanced player housing tend to be the types that want the "best" plots of land, or those who desire to have a gigantic mansion but don't want to fork over the massive amount of currency in a limited real estate market.

    Absolutely inaccurate. I put a ridiculous amount of work (time farming decor, time earning plat to buy decor, time painstakingly placing all the freaking decor) into creating my skyplot builds in WildStar. Wanting instanced housing has NOTHING to do with not wanting to "fork over" money for real estate or just wanting the "best plots of land" for no work. I simply place no value on the "prestige" of limited real estate and find that non-instanced housing completely lacks all of the aspects of housing that I enjoy.

     

    There must be some kind of moneysink tied to houses, plus a decay timer, or any market would be saturated. If a house has no cost, no upkeep, then it's no even a choice not to have one, or to relinquish one. But I know, this is only relative to non perma instanced housing as an issue. Still, even instanced housing should have an upkeep cost to draw money out of the game.

    • 1618 posts
    October 23, 2018 5:30 AM PDT
    I much prefer instanced housing for normal housing. However, guild halls, outposts, etc., should be open world.

    I dont want to have to compete with 1,000 other people to get a nice spot near a road or lake.
    • 393 posts
    October 23, 2018 6:04 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    BamBam said:I'd rather see the time used to build more cool dungeons, interesting quests and optimising.

    I agree completely.  But once those things are done, at least when it comes to the game at release, I do not see any reason why some resources could not be allocated to development of housing that can then be introduced in a later expansion.

     

    I agree. I want gameplay to be as clean and complete as possible first. If housing is to be done without instancing and be meaningful with game-play, it's going to take some work to get it done right. I think it could be a strong draw for new players and a good idea as (part of) an expansion later down the road.

     

    • 107 posts
    October 23, 2018 7:13 AM PDT

    I think people who want the non-instanced housing want it for only a few reasons. The main thing seems to be immersion by it being a part of the world and community interaction. But the way most instanced housing works is not the way instanced dungeons work. If I go visit Naunets house I will see everyone who is also visiting it there. It's not instanced in the sense that only so many people are allowed at his house and then a new instance is created. It would still be immersive because instead of having some house hearth stone type of thing you make the entrance to your house at some zone edge so you would have t travel there and I think that would be ok. It continues to promote porting and not just portaling across the world never traveling by foot.

     

    If you don't do instanced housing you will be missing out on some unreal artwork of the highly customized houses you saw in games like wildstar. The ships and houses and battle diaramas I saw were just gorgeous when made by a dedicated player.

    • 696 posts
    October 23, 2018 7:37 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Watemper said:

    And I will take what I suggested over instanced housing any day of the week.....so what is your point.

    This game isn't real life.  We don't need to (in game) return to our house and spend 1/2 of the day in it.  

    Nor in real life are we going to log in every day, maybe even two.  Some people, omg, might not log in for even 3 days in a row.

    Nice strawman...I suggested something like what you would do with a regular house...like a mortgage and maybe 2 things to do per week for house upkeep...that is hardly every day log in and spend half the day.  Really went out of left field on that conclusion you came up with.

    • 646 posts
    October 23, 2018 7:41 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:There must be some kind of moneysink tied to houses, plus a decay timer, or any market would be saturated. If a house has no cost, no upkeep, then it's no even a choice not to have one, or to relinquish one. But I know, this is only relative to non perma instanced housing as an issue. Still, even instanced housing should have an upkeep cost to draw money out of the game.

    Wildstar's housing is a HUGE money-sink. A lot of the decor is vendor-purchased, any cosmetic change to ground/sky/music costs plat, and you have to spend coin to change the walls, floor, ceiling, trim, interior lighting, and interior music of any of the premade houses. Just because it doesn't require annoying upkeep costs doesn't mean it doesn't represent a gold sink. I can easily chew through 50 plat (5,000 gold) in a single day of dedicated building (for comparison's sake, I'm currently sitting on a little under 200 plat).


    This post was edited by Naunet at October 23, 2018 7:43 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    October 23, 2018 8:22 AM PDT

    @Naunet

    I understand and respect your desire for full customization and a very rich housing experience.

    My question for you however is this:  If you use instanced housing as a base, how would you make housing feel integrated with the rest of the game?  How would you make it really matter to players so that it was something that people used regularly, instead of just setting it up and decorating it and then leaving it alone for weeks or months at a time?  How would you insure that the housing areas had people in them an an active community, but also insure that NPC towns and cities had people in them as well?

    Serious question - I'm not trying to lead you to a conclusion here.  In my experience, I haven't really seen a game (including Wildstar) that got the balance just right yet.  In most instanced-housing games I've seen, one of two things happens:  People either set it up and then don't really use it, which makes it feel like wasted potential; Or; the housing replaces the NPC towns and cities that everyone started out in, and those cities become less and less populated as more and more players buy into housing areas.  So, how would you recommend preventing either of those situations from occurring?

    PS:  In fairness, these problems can happen with open-world housing as well if it's implemented poorly.


    This post was edited by Nephele at October 23, 2018 8:23 AM PDT
    • 844 posts
    October 23, 2018 8:32 AM PDT

    After reading so much of these posts I am of the mind that the best solution is some sort of hybrid.

    A physical in-game building that has to be built using harvested and crafted resources. That has some storage and decoration functionality.

    BUT, players can also add an instanced component inside. A trap door to a tunnel, or door to a tower that opens up virtual functionality.

     

    The instanced aspect requires a physical building first.

    If your account lapses you lose the plot and the building poofs. All items go into a holding space associated with your account should you ever return.

     

    If you do return, you then have to re-build the physical building before acquiring back your items and the virtual space.

    • 696 posts
    October 23, 2018 8:43 AM PDT

    I wish there was a third option from instanced vs open world. Almost seems like they are forcing housing one way or another. Third option should be no housing at all. I would say ultimately I am of the 3rd option..but seems like I have to choose one or the other.

    • 646 posts
    October 23, 2018 9:04 AM PDT

    Nephele said:@Naunet

    I understand and respect your desire for full customization and a very rich housing experience.

    My question for you however is this:  If you use instanced housing as a base, how would you make housing feel integrated with the rest of the game?  How would you make it really matter to players so that it was something that people used regularly, instead of just setting it up and decorating it and then leaving it alone for weeks or months at a time?  How would you insure that the housing areas had people in them an an active community, but also insure that NPC towns and cities had people in them as well?

    Serious question - I'm not trying to lead you to a conclusion here.  In my experience, I haven't really seen a game (including Wildstar) that got the balance just right yet.  In most instanced-housing games I've seen, one of two things happens:  People either set it up and then don't really use it, which makes it feel like wasted potential; Or; the housing replaces the NPC towns and cities that everyone started out in, and those cities become less and less populated as more and more players buy into housing areas.  So, how would you recommend preventing either of those situations from occurring?

    PS:  In fairness, these problems can happen with open-world housing as well if it's implemented poorly.

    Good question. I'll admit that I'm personally not super bothered by it not being completely "integrated" with the rest of the game to force players to use it. I think people should make use of housing only if they want to and we don't need functional features to make people feel compelled to go there. I felt satisfied by making use of the skyplots with the RP community and engaging in the more "artsy" side of the housing community in player-run contests and viewing/sharing other people's art projects. However, for the sake of the question...

    Perhaps expand a bit on WildStar's challenge and expedition FABkits? Where you could place essentially mini-content on one's housing plot. I spent a lot of time completing housing challenges and running the little mini-dungeons on people's skyplots to farm for specific decor and unlock various dyes. But for me, those kinds of things are attractive because I'm more interested in the cosmetic stuff than increasing my stats. But I guess you could take that a step further (which is, honestly, what a lot of WS players suggested) toward player-driven content. With a robust housing system, you could easily allow for player-created puzzles and challenges. I remember one player in WS was able to create actual mini-golf using code with Katia's housing addon. Another player created a race challenge, complete with traps that other players could activate to try and stop the racing players from reaching the end. Fun stuff!

    I don't know if that answers your question, sorry. xD Personally I'm not really drawn to housing for things like bank space or access to crafting stations or whatever. It's all in what the community can come up with it.

    • 107 posts
    October 23, 2018 9:21 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    @Naunet

    I understand and respect your desire for full customization and a very rich housing experience.

    My question for you however is this:  If you use instanced housing as a base, how would you make housing feel integrated with the rest of the game?  How would you make it really matter to players so that it was something that people used regularly, instead of just setting it up and decorating it and then leaving it alone for weeks or months at a time?  How would you insure that the housing areas had people in them an an active community, but also insure that NPC towns and cities had people in them as well?

    Serious question - I'm not trying to lead you to a conclusion here.  In my experience, I haven't really seen a game (including Wildstar) that got the balance just right yet.  In most instanced-housing games I've seen, one of two things happens:  People either set it up and then don't really use it, which makes it feel like wasted potential; Or; the housing replaces the NPC towns and cities that everyone started out in, and those cities become less and less populated as more and more players buy into housing areas.  So, how would you recommend preventing either of those situations from occurring?

    PS:  In fairness, these problems can happen with open-world housing as well if it's implemented poorly.

     

    In a way I would say it can be just as immersive. How many people in a dangerous world would put their house and raise their children right next to shark infested water while goblins roam the area looking to pillage? People live in cities in dark times like these to stay safe and protected behind powerful city walls. Yes you might need farming in desolate areas but in games of magic you need far less as often people use magic to make their crops grow more plentiful and larger. No one would have a house just chilling in Southern Ro. If you restrict housing to low level areas then you have the limitation issue.

    On top of this highly customizable options are not available as there are many people out there who would jut make a giant mess of their housing area. In Wildstar I've seen plenty of houses as I browsed that had 3 giant stuffed animals and garbage just set out everywhere and it looked terrible. If you allowed that in the open world this would inevitabley happen. This means any housing plots in zones have to be made in specific ways like the garrison in warlords of draenor. Here you can build a large building, stables, balcksmith, or lumber mill. Here you can build a small building, house, garden, mine, fishing pond. In fact the addition of useful things in your housing plot often makes less people in the cities and less people out in the world collecting things in this situation.

    However in an instanced zone line in whichever city you choose you are essentially going to the housing district of that city. Has anyone else ever found it a little odd that when you are in Ironforge there are hundreds of guards, merchants, and laborers but there isn't but maybe 6 houses that have beds in them? Obviously these NPCs have to live somewhere and your house is easily a small instanced slice of that district.


    This post was edited by zendrel at October 23, 2018 9:22 AM PDT
    • 844 posts
    October 23, 2018 9:40 AM PDT

    zendrel said:

    Nephele said:

    @Naunet

    I understand and respect your desire for full customization and a very rich housing experience.

    My question for you however is this:  If you use instanced housing as a base, how would you make housing feel integrated with the rest of the game?  How would you make it really matter to players so that it was something that people used regularly, instead of just setting it up and decorating it and then leaving it alone for weeks or months at a time?  How would you insure that the housing areas had people in them an an active community, but also insure that NPC towns and cities had people in them as well?

    Serious question - I'm not trying to lead you to a conclusion here.  In my experience, I haven't really seen a game (including Wildstar) that got the balance just right yet.  In most instanced-housing games I've seen, one of two things happens:  People either set it up and then don't really use it, which makes it feel like wasted potential; Or; the housing replaces the NPC towns and cities that everyone started out in, and those cities become less and less populated as more and more players buy into housing areas.  So, how would you recommend preventing either of those situations from occurring?

    PS:  In fairness, these problems can happen with open-world housing as well if it's implemented poorly.

    In a way I would say it can be just as immersive. How many people in a dangerous world would put their house and raise their children right next to shark infested water while goblins roam the area looking to pillage? People live in cities in dark times like these to stay safe and protected behind powerful city walls. Yes you might need farming in desolate areas but in games of magic you need far less as often people use magic to make their crops grow more plentiful and larger. No one would have a house just chilling in Southern Ro. If you restrict housing to low level areas then you have the limitation issue.

    This happens in RL commonly. People live in very dangerous places all over the world. People and children and killed and eaten by wild animals, alligators, snakes, crocs, bears, mountain lions all the time. Even in places you might otherise think are relatively safe, until they are not. Humans encrouchment on wild animal habitat has been going on for since humans showed up. Just recently, a few weeks ago a woman walking her dog in Florida, killed and eaten by a gator. "Jun 11, 2018 - The apparent alligator attack that resulted in the death of a Florida woman who was walking her dogs"

    • 63 posts
    October 23, 2018 9:42 AM PDT

    Overall I would prefer instanced housing as I like my home to be a retreat from the hustle and bustle of the world where I can do whatever I want in peace and quiet.

    Additioanlly I have seen many open world systems with terrible problems, usually massive under supply of housing (looking at you FFXIV) or massive over supply with endless rows and rows of empty unmanaged, identical house.

    • 2752 posts
    October 23, 2018 10:06 AM PDT

    zendrel said:

    I think people who want the non-instanced housing want it for only a few reasons. The main thing seems to be immersion by it being a part of the world and community interaction. But the way most instanced housing works is not the way instanced dungeons work. If I go visit Naunets house I will see everyone who is also visiting it there. It's not instanced in the sense that only so many people are allowed at his house and then a new instance is created. It would still be immersive because instead of having some house hearth stone type of thing you make the entrance to your house at some zone edge so you would have t travel there and I think that would be ok. It continues to promote porting and not just portaling across the world never traveling by foot.

     

    If you don't do instanced housing you will be missing out on some unreal artwork of the highly customized houses you saw in games like wildstar. The ships and houses and battle diaramas I saw were just gorgeous when made by a dedicated player.

    Except 99% of the time no one is visiting the houses of other players at all, they simply ghost away from the world and make everything feel that much more empty. Something like 2/3rds of players in FFXIV hang out in housing wards instead of cities according to a poster who checked in this thread and when WoW launched garrisons it split the community further as cities were noticeably more desolate. Wildstar too, the difference in visible population at the main city between launch (before most anyone had housing) vs a month or two in was massive. 

    • 10 posts
    October 23, 2018 10:21 AM PDT

    No housing please.

    I loved seeing people hang out at banks or zone gates. Or guilds forming up at towns druid rings/ portals. housing goes against that i believe

    • 239 posts
    October 23, 2018 10:37 AM PDT
    First off Kilsin this topic has been discussed, please do not open a new thread with same topic. ;)

    But honestly a mix of the two I see working the best. I would think 70%-80% of player will have some sort of housing ( just guessing ). That would be too many for open world. But a lot of players just have minimal housing these could be instances, apartment type.
    The higher end players that like to spend the high resources and time could but pre-set plot areas in the open world. These can be limited and zoned properly so they do not get out of hand. Guild halls built over time just off of the main path to big cities. The key is these being limited to where they are more valuable to players and/or guilds that have the extra money to purchase high price plots of land.