Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Open World Housing vs Instanced Housing

    • 264 posts
    October 23, 2018 9:32 PM PDT

     Honestly Naunet just take a look at Beefcake's post as a direct example of what I was talking about. There are plenty of posters in this thread who's reason for preferring instanced housing is indeed wanting the perfect plot for cheap. Maybe you personally are not in that crowd but you are the exception from what I've seen. Vanco I've seen a lot of concern about player housing pulling players away from cities and I think that concern is legit, if players can do everything at their house they won't have any reason to go to the cities unless the housing is only placed around/inside of the cities. I am OK with player housing not having any practical use whatsoever...strictly for vanity/roleplay/trophy stuff.

     Player housing requires a lot of dev time and has not proven itself to attract and maintain players. WildStar certainly didn't keep subs by having it, and while I really love the housing system of ArcheAge it also did not help that game retain players. I don't think it would be wise for a small team like VR to put a ton of resources into a player housing system and won't be upset if there is no player housing at launch. Yes it is a fun feature but it's not what makes or breaks MMORPGs.

    • 724 posts
    October 24, 2018 12:04 AM PDT

    Ziegfried said: Player housing requires a lot of dev time and has not proven itself to attract and maintain players. WildStar certainly didn't keep subs by having it, and while I really love the housing system of ArcheAge it also did not help that game retain players. I don't think it would be wise for a small team like VR to put a ton of resources into a player housing system and won't be upset if there is no player housing at launch. Yes it is a fun feature but it's not what makes or breaks MMORPGs.

    IMO I don't think that housing was a main factor for people to leave Archeage. I didn't play Wildstar for long so I can't comment much on it.

    And yes, housing is nice but not a top priority for me. As others said already, I would prefer if the focus for Pantheon was gameplay, combat and stuff :) Do housing when the rest of the game is up and running well.

    • 646 posts
    October 24, 2018 7:41 AM PDT

    Ziegfried said: Honestly Naunet just take a look at Beefcake's post as a direct example of what I was talking about. There are plenty of posters in this thread who's reason for preferring instanced housing is indeed wanting the perfect plot for cheap. Maybe you personally are not in that crowd but you are the exception from what I've seen. Vanco I've seen a lot of concern about player housing pulling players away from cities and I think that concern is legit, if players can do everything at their house they won't have any reason to go to the cities unless the housing is only placed around/inside of the cities. I am OK with player housing not having any practical use whatsoever...strictly for vanity/roleplay/trophy stuff.

    Beefcake said he doesn't want to compete with people for the spot he wants, which is a perfectly legitimate critique of non-instanced housing - that there will NEVER be enough supply.

    The whole point of instanced housing is that everyone can have a place to make unique to themselves. If you're concerned about players doing everything at their house instead of cities, then the easy solution is don't put those functions in the housing plot. It's really not that hard at all. And you've got a very hard job ahead of you if you're going to try and connect WildStar's instanced housing (heralded by pretty much everyone as the BEST housing system on the market, and honestly was the ONLY reason many people I know kept playing the game) with its failure to hold onto subscriptions.

    When designed right, players who want to invest in a housing build must also invest time in the rest of the game. I spend time running shiphands, adventures, and dungeons for decor. I spend time farming open world elites and other mobs for decor. I spend time doing content with other players and crafting to make money to support housing because it's a massive plat sink. Housing encourages you to play the rest of the game. Just because sometimes I'm working on a housing plot doesn't mean it's a negative for the game. People have fun! That is a freaking success.

    Sarim said:And yes, housing is nice but not a top priority for me. As others said already, I would prefer if the focus for Pantheon was gameplay, combat and stuff :) Do housing when the rest of the game is up and running well.

    I simply want them to keep the feature in mind as they are designing the rest of the game, so that it is much easier to implement later on.


    This post was edited by Naunet at October 24, 2018 7:42 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    October 24, 2018 7:50 AM PDT

    Ziegfried said:

     Honestly Naunet just take a look at Beefcake's post as a direct example of what I was talking about. There are plenty of posters in this thread who's reason for preferring instanced housing is indeed wanting the perfect plot for cheap. Maybe you personally are not in that crowd but you are the exception from what I've seen. Vanco I've seen a lot of concern about player housing pulling players away from cities and I think that concern is legit, if players can do everything at their house they won't have any reason to go to the cities unless the housing is only placed around/inside of the cities. I am OK with player housing not having any practical use whatsoever...strictly for vanity/roleplay/trophy stuff.

     Player housing requires a lot of dev time and has not proven itself to attract and maintain players. WildStar certainly didn't keep subs by having it, and while I really love the housing system of ArcheAge it also did not help that game retain players. I don't think it would be wise for a small team like VR to put a ton of resources into a player housing system and won't be upset if there is no player housing at launch. Yes it is a fun feature but it's not what makes or breaks MMORPGs.

    I think Wildstar is officially shutting down in Novemeber sometime...so yea with all of the amazing housing I heard of in the game it didn't keep them there. So I do agree the core gameplay should be thought of first and housing...if necessary, should come later in the game.


    This post was edited by Watemper at October 24, 2018 7:51 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    October 24, 2018 8:36 AM PDT

    Housing is a plus - looking for housing items is a mini-game that keeps many players occupied - at least for part of their time.

    Suppose there was a tiny chance for a wolf to drop a wolf trophy that a NPC (or even player) taxidermist could turn into a stuffed wolf for display in a house. I can pretty well guarantee that more than a few players would take time away from the most efficient way of leveling up to kill many wolves. Now add bears, tigers, moose .........

    Of course it isn't one of the 10 most important elements of a MMO but it is a big plus for quite a few of us.

    Only VR can judge how much time and how many resources it would take to do a good job at it. More important by far only VR can judge whether it would be a nice selling point when the time comes to go beyond the people here and word of mouth and aggressively push the game to the general community.

    I would rather have a good game and a smooth rollout than have housing. But if housing can add 10% to the initial subscription numbers it is worth considering having it at release. Housing and crafting do help sell a game especially a pve-focused game.

    So on the point of whether housing should be deferred until later I give a firm and unequivical maybe.

    • 696 posts
    October 24, 2018 8:52 AM PDT

    ^ You forgot to subtract the people who would feel housing is water downing the game..or having more negatives than positives...whether justified or not and they leave the game because of it. I've seen plenty of people who left games because of housing. So..Yea,,things like they don't just add people..they also take away people.


    This post was edited by Watemper at October 24, 2018 8:52 AM PDT
    • 844 posts
    October 24, 2018 10:30 AM PDT

    Watemper said:

    ^ You forgot to subtract the people who would feel housing is water downing the game..or having more negatives than positives...whether justified or not and they leave the game because of it. I've seen plenty of people who left games because of housing. So..Yea,,things like they don't just add people..they also take away people.

    Another completely ridiculous unqualified statement from someone who just makes %$&* up to justify whatever ridiculous point they think they have!

    Watemper said:

    "I've seen plenty of people who left games because of housing." 

    • 696 posts
    October 24, 2018 11:39 AM PDT

    So you are saying there aren't any people out there who leave games because of housing?

    • 2752 posts
    October 24, 2018 11:55 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Housing is a plus - looking for housing items is a mini-game that keeps many players occupied - at least for part of their time.

    But for others it is a negative. It removes a sizeable amount (enough to make cities noticeably more empty) players from the open world, regardless of if convenience is offered within housing or not. Then there is the continued resource tax it is on development, resources that could otherwise be used for features that directly support and tie into the open world experience. All in the name of cosmetics? Why not just play Minecraft or other build/manage a house games, because the likelyhood of other players seeing what you have built is nearly the same playing a different game entirely as it is with instanced housing. 

     

    If some form of "housing" absolutely had to be added to the game, then maybe it should come in the form of shipbuilding. You can decorate a cabin in your ship (which would be in the open world), but the ship would disappear when you log out (allowing pretty much everyone who wants one to have a "house"). I still wouldn't personally use it or support the dev resources for a purely cosmetic feature but it would at least be a little better than instanced housing. 

     

     

    • 89 posts
    October 24, 2018 12:09 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    So you are saying there aren't any people out there who leave games because of housing?

     

    It seems a pretty unlikely reason for someone to leave a game.

     

    On the other hand it's highly unlikely to do much for the game if the more core elements of gameplay are lacking, certainly not enough to warrant heavy early investment.

    • 646 posts
    October 24, 2018 12:11 PM PDT

    Iksar said:All in the name of cosmetics?

    Cosmetics represent a massive allure for a large number of players. Consider how popular farming old raids was even before WoW implemented its Transmogrification system. When I played FFXIV, people were constantly clamouring for a costume system, and once the glamour system was implemented the phrase "Glamour is the real end game" became a common refrain. Likewise housing attracts a very dedicated set of players who love to design spaces for themselves (or, in the case of WS's housing, entire landscapes for the community).

    Never discount the importance of cosmetics in any video game, but especially MMOs. The social aspect, combined with usually great graphics (compared to things like Minecraft, which are just not attractive) and the desire to present your character and your experience in a unique way make cosmetics in general absolutely fundamental to gameplay.

    • 696 posts
    October 24, 2018 12:12 PM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    Watemper said:

    So you are saying there aren't any people out there who leave games because of housing?

     

    It seems a pretty unlikely reason for someone to leave a game.

     

    On the other hand it's highly unlikely to do much for the game if the more core elements of gameplay are lacking, certainly not enough to warrant heavy early investment.

    Sorry let me rephrase since people take things to the extreme on here. Housing can be one of the reasons people leave a game...not solely...but ONE...key word there. Better?

    • 363 posts
    October 24, 2018 1:02 PM PDT

    Definitely Instanced please.

    • 294 posts
    October 24, 2018 2:44 PM PDT

    I've played games with both and enjoyed both as long as I can make it personal. I prefer open-world, and guild housing is a must.

     

    • 88 posts
    October 24, 2018 3:04 PM PDT

    Too late for the poll but I also support open world housing similar to Vanguard though, I would also include instanced based housing for those unable to attain non-instanced plots.  If trading is going to be regional, it would be pretty sweet if housing could be used for storefronts similar to SWG.


    This post was edited by Louden at October 24, 2018 3:05 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    October 24, 2018 3:33 PM PDT

    Very few people would leave a game because it had housing.

    If Wartemper's comment has any validity it would be to the extent that some people *do* leave MMOs because of housing poorly implemented. Better no housing than bad housing.

    Iksar's comments are,  in part, well taken. If the trade-off for having housing is a significant reduction in the quality of Pantheon as a game - it isn't worth it. If housing would turn cities from thriving communal areas into ghost towns it isn't worth it.

    But I do not see the latter as very likely, and a busy crafting/merchant sector in a housing neighborhood is just as good as one in a city.

    • 2752 posts
    October 24, 2018 3:53 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Cosmetics represent a massive allure for a large number of players. Consider how popular farming old raids was even before WoW implemented its Transmogrification system. When I played FFXIV, people were constantly clamouring for a costume system, and once the glamour system was implemented the phrase "Glamour is the real end game" became a common refrain. Likewise housing attracts a very dedicated set of players who love to design spaces for themselves (or, in the case of WS's housing, entire landscapes for the community).

    Never discount the importance of cosmetics in any video game, but especially MMOs. The social aspect, combined with usually great graphics (compared to things like Minecraft, which are just not attractive) and the desire to present your character and your experience in a unique way make cosmetics in general absolutely fundamental to gameplay.

    Obtaining armor/items in-game via drops/crafting/etc for cosmetic use I can get, people like to put their own touch on their character to feel a little unique. Though I really wish games would let me decide how I want to view other players (showing cosmetic/glamour vs adventure/equipped gear) since I really don't care to see people running around in cat/maid/swimsuit/underwear/holiday costume/etc outfits, which felt like at least half the FFXIV population. Glamour as the real end game makes sense for a game with no challenge (aside from the most recently released raid tier) or really anything else to do at max level.

     

    The thing about equipment cosmetics vs housing is that equipment doesn't take resources away from the core gameplay or design and it doesn't remove players from the open world. Instanced housing is almost entirely a personal thing that no other players will ever see which doubles as a place that hides players from the world, and it takes resources away from features that support the open world/core gameplay. 

     

    Cosmetics in general aren't really an issue to me, just empty fluff cosmetics that don't support gameplay or that take players out of the open world. If they wanted to add mount armor, banners, flags etc or player owned and decorated ships? Fine. Outposts or non-instanced guild halls? Sure. Vanity pet collections that can engage in Pokemon-esque battles against other player's pets? Okay, I guess. But nothing that removes players from the world or that cannot be engaged by the community as a whole, openly and without special invitation.

    • 363 posts
    October 24, 2018 4:33 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Very few people would leave a game because it had housing.

    Wildstar had housing and it failed as a game. World of Warcraft has zero player housing and its the most succesful MMO to date. Housing has yet to prove much in the of success to an MMO. Would I like player housing? sure why not. Do I care if its not in the game? No. It makes no real difference to me. Honestly player housing is pure fluff and more akin to tea parties and barbie playhouse.

    • 646 posts
    October 24, 2018 4:42 PM PDT

    Iksar said:Instanced housing is almost entirely a personal thing that no other players will ever see

    Dunno why you keep repeating this. The folk who are interested in housing generally go around to everyone else's plots and tend to be very community-oriented people. Folk in WildStar have made custom dungeons (non-combat, of course, as the housing doesn't allow for THAT degree of customization, alas), mini-games, contests, RP centers of a wide variety of kinds, dueling arenas, and more. It's so strange to me that this forum is always hammering on about "community this, community that" but seem completely incapable of recognizing that housing is just as much a tool of the community as anything else.

    The only thing I can say to the resources side is that I personally view it as a worthwhile investment, so I simply disagree that it's a waste of resources.

    Bronsun said:Wildstar had housing and it failed as a game. World of Warcraft has zero player housing and its the most succesful MMO to date. Housing has yet to prove much in the of success to an MMO. Would I like player housing? sure why not. Do I care if its not in the game? No. It makes no real difference to me. Honestly player housing is pure fluff and more akin to tea parties and barbie playhouse.

    WildStar failed due to very poor management within Carbine and from NCSoft - not because of core game features. This has been discussed quite in depth on other forums. Of course housing isn't critical to a game's success, but it's a fun feature that some of us would like. Therefore I advocate for it.


    This post was edited by Naunet at October 24, 2018 4:44 PM PDT
    • 11 posts
    October 24, 2018 6:23 PM PDT

    I would like to see limited non-instanced housing where players would have to earn the right to lay down a plot somewhere.  And in this plot if they were ever able to expand it out far enough they could rent space for markets and such.  It would also be of interest for there to be small amount of area to do this in every few zones so that people would have to travel to explore then rather than having a centralize market location.

    • 2752 posts
    October 24, 2018 6:31 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Dunno why you keep repeating this. The folk who are interested in housing generally go around to everyone else's plots and tend to be very community-oriented people. Folk in WildStar have made custom dungeons (non-combat, of course, as the housing doesn't allow for THAT degree of customization, alas), mini-games, contests, RP centers of a wide variety of kinds, dueling arenas, and more. It's so strange to me that this forum is always hammering on about "community this, community that" but seem completely incapable of recognizing that housing is just as much a tool of the community as anything else.

    The only thing I can say to the resources side is that I personally view it as a worthwhile investment, so I simply disagree that it's a waste of resources.

    Because of the players that invest themselves or even participate in housing, only a tiny fraction of them engage in visiting the housing of others.

    Instanced housing is not a community thing. It's the difference between a playground in a public park and a private backyard: anyone can go into a public park as they please without special invitation or knowledge but to go into someones backyard to use their playground requires knowledge of it's existence and private invitation for limited access, not to mention someone has to really want to see the backyard and make all the effort to find it and get invited whereas with a park anyone can walk past and appreciate it, to watch the people playing about as they pass or otherwise take in the sights all without desire to actually go into or play there themselves. 

     

    It reminds me of when WoW did add their version of housing and the resulting community uproar when they seemed to learn about opportunity cost (or how it "cost players a raid tier"), which Blizzard explained:

    It's just a handy reference to explain the level of resources required to do some of the things that might be requested. As has been evidenced by this thread, it seems that when we say that, it can (amazingly) be misconstrued.

    I know it's easy to envision Blizzard as a mysterious Willy Wonka-esque magic factory where unfathomable entities craft limitless wonders. As cool (disturbing?) as it would be if we had a bunch of orange-skinned green haired gnomes running around to do our bidding, we don't (but we're working on it). In the meantime, there are real people working long hours with mouse, keyboard, and tablet to bring those wonders to life. It's hard work, and it's held up to an exacting standard.

    The long and the short of it is that when we say that, we're not necessarily literally saying that "It's this or a raid tier". It's just shorthand for the amount of resources it might require to accomplish something. It's more like: 'this' or 'more content elsewhere in the game'. Some of you mentioned that you want 5-mans. Well, then the question becomes: Do you want a set of Garrison buildings for one new race or a 5-man? Or a new questing zone? Or new creatures, items, and gear? Or, indeed, a raid tier? So on and so forth.

    It's merely an expression of equivalent effort to get across a point that no matter how many creative people we have working, we are always only be able to accomplish so much with those specific resources in a specific amount of time. And that means we have to prioritize what we do. We have to know when to call a project done, and move on to something else, and when to delay an 'Oh, that would be cool if' for later. Feature creep is a real thing, and it can cause an entire project to end up on the cutting room floor.

    To spend all the required development resources so a relatively small percentage of players can build and decorate an instanced house, that has no ties to actual gameplay or open community involvement, is theft from everyone who is more interested in the core aspects of this game and a living open world experience.


    This post was edited by Iksar at October 24, 2018 6:31 PM PDT
    • 646 posts
    October 24, 2018 8:42 PM PDT

    Iksar said:Because of the players that invest themselves or even participate in housing, only a tiny fraction of them engage in visiting the housing of others.

    Instanced housing is not a community thing. It's the difference between a playground in a public park and a private backyard: anyone can go into a public park as they please without special invitation or knowledge but to go into someones backyard to use their playground requires knowledge of it's existence and private invitation for limited access, not to mention someone has to really want to see the backyard and make all the effort to find it and get invited whereas with a park anyone can walk past and appreciate it, to watch the people playing about as they pass or otherwise take in the sights all without desire to actually go into or play there themselves.

    1. The housing communities in Rift and WildStar are quite strong. Just because you don't imagine yourself using it, doesn't mean others don't. Not everyone is going to want to spend time in crafting. Not everyone raids. Not everyone likes quests. But those things are still valid content.

    2. It's called having a public house setting and a proper UI to browse and search all housing plots. No invitation or extra work necessary.

    3. A well-done housing system allows for a lot more than just sight-seeing. I have discussed MANY different ways the WS housing community has engaged with one another over the years, but you've clearly ignored all of that.

    • 844 posts
    October 24, 2018 8:58 PM PDT

    Bronsun said:

    dorotea said:

    Very few people would leave a game because it had housing.

    Wildstar had housing and it failed as a game. World of Warcraft has zero player housing and its the most succesful MMO to date. Housing has yet to prove much in the of success to an MMO. Would I like player housing? sure why not. Do I care if its not in the game? No. It makes no real difference to me. Honestly player housing is pure fluff and more akin to tea parties and barbie playhouse.

    If you are quantifying success purely on a monetary basis, WoW has done ok. But technically Most of the Korean MMOs beat the pants off of WoW monetarily. Spenders in Korean FTP P2W gindfests spend many hundreds to thousands of dollars annually.

    WoW has always been subpar and owes any success to simply stealing other MMO ideas, it's lucky timing of release coupled with simplicity and cartoon characters targetted at children. A fluff game that hit the market right as millions of tweenies happened to be getting systems able to play the simplified game, as well as a huge increase of faster and more available ISPs.

    WoW has never had anything innovative or creative going for it and will always be an instanced, carebear, cartoonland game made for kiddies. The issue is now the kiddies have grown up (some of them) and continue to think that WoW was amazing. 

    This comment shows us some of that kiddie. Go back to WoW.

    "Honestly player housing is pure fluff and more akin to tea parties and barbie playhouse."

     


    This post was edited by zewtastic at October 25, 2018 12:47 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    October 24, 2018 10:28 PM PDT

    Fifth page and all temper is lost...

    • 238 posts
    October 25, 2018 12:36 AM PDT

    I have played WoW, Tara, and most recently ESO while waiting for pantheon. I think that houses are a nice additive, but are not needed for a game to be sucessful. Like some people have mentioned above; the development and implementation of a housing system takes time away from the developers. I would much rather see this time invested in things that add to gameplay (PvE/PvP, seasonal events, world events... etc).

    If the question ever came down to instanced housing vs open world housing, then instanced housing all the way. I believe that Ever Quest Next looked into open world housing when they when they were still in development. Even with their voxal degration and destruction system they decided that open would housing had the potiential to take over the PvE environment. Pantheon to my understanding doesn't have a degration system in place, so open world housing has a higher potiential to be more consistant and permanent which could take away form the PvE environment. A soulution for this issue could be server sharding but that causes seperation of players which is not needed.

    I think that player housing is a topic that is best discussed after the launch of a game, unless the game has inate systems that allow for its ease of development and implementation at launch. As it is right now I feel that housing would just add more (un-needed) developmental stress.

    *** If you guys are looking for suggestions: A system that allows cities and towns to grow and dvelop around palyers would be nice. This system would make the world appear to be a living entity, vs a static play ground. It would also allow for future implementation of the perception system, and could also be used to develop PvE systems such as bandit raids, or dragon strikes on cities that have increased in wealth and prosperity. I know that WoW has a system like this with some of its PvE and PvP content. I also know that Ashes of Creation is looking to do something along this line with its PvE system, so copyright laws have to be maintained. However if you guys could make the world appear to be a living enviornement, you would already be succeding over 90% of the current mmo market.


    This post was edited by Baldur at October 25, 2018 12:37 AM PDT