Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Running past Green NPC's? With impunity?

    • 844 posts
    October 20, 2018 2:01 PM PDT

    I know it is early days and things will of course change, but upon watching one of the more recent streams again it almost seemed comical.

    The player running through BRK past green human NPC's with impunity. Not drawing aggro or alarm?

    Frankly it just looked dumb.

    Even if Human NPC's were too afraid to engage a higher level character running into their castle, they would still call for help or something. That sort of fits into the entire aspect of the Dispositon System.

    Even green NPCs should be able to take down a higher level PC if there were enough of them.

    I hope that gets tuned more.

    • 2419 posts
    October 20, 2018 3:02 PM PDT

    While I can see the reason for green cons (non-experience giving NPCs) to ignore a player, having them always be aggressive or calling for help overlooks one quite critical positive for them not doing that:  Higher level players can pass through content that lower level characters are engaging without having to disrupt their enjoyment of the content.  It would suck for players who are just in in the initial levels to experience a zone to be constantly facing no NPCs to fight because higher level players moving through need to keep clearing everything.

    If VR were to decide that green cons should continue to attack players, what is the benefit of that to the players those NPCs are attacking?  They get nothing out of it, the NPCs would be trivial and even multiple NPCs ganging up could, potentially, present no problem at all to the player. It only gets more out of balance the greater the disparity between the player and the NPC.

    No, it is better that green cons continue to ignore players.

     

    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 3:25 PM PDT

    I don't think a NPC knows you con, so if his job is to guard an area, whoever you are, shall be attacked. If not, they should at least run away and not stand in position, shaking, hoping for the high level not to one shot them.

     

    I really don't think it's positive to let high levels skip every content by just running throught it, especially as level increase, green con designed for group or multiple groups are a serious threat for a high level lone character.

    • 2419 posts
    October 20, 2018 3:29 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I don't think a NPC knows you con, so if his job is to guard an area, whoever you are, shall be attacked. If not, they should at least run away and not stand in position, shaking, hoping for the high level not to one shot them.

     

    I really don't think it's positive to let high levels skip every content by just running throught it, especially as level increase, green con designed for group or multiple groups are a serious threat for a high level lone character.

    At some point, though, a player would need to have dozens of low level NPCs attacking him/her to even begin to become a threat..at least that is what I'm expecting anyway.  How many level 5 orcs would be needed to kill a level 50 warrior?  Or 50 wizard? Sure, when the level difference is just barely into the green range even a couple of NPCs can be a threat but when that difference is +10?  +20?

    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 3:38 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I don't think a NPC knows you con, so if his job is to guard an area, whoever you are, shall be attacked. If not, they should at least run away and not stand in position, shaking, hoping for the high level not to one shot them.

     

    I really don't think it's positive to let high levels skip every content by just running throught it, especially as level increase, green con designed for group or multiple groups are a serious threat for a high level lone character.

    At some point, though, a player would need to have dozens of low level NPCs attacking him/her to even begin to become a threat..at least that is what I'm expecting anyway.  How many level 5 orcs would be needed to kill a level 50 warrior?  Or 50 wizard? Sure, when the level difference is just barely into the green range even a couple of NPCs can be a threat but when that difference is +10?  +20?

    You said green  I said green. Now, of course, green can be 10 lvls, green can be 20 levels, 45 levels, or even 10 levels designed for 42 players (which would probably smack a lone player).

     

    Probably, Green is too vague in this case..

    • 2419 posts
    October 20, 2018 4:03 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You said green  I said green. Now, of course, green can be 10 lvls, green can be 20 levels, 45 levels, or even 10 levels designed for 42 players (which would probably smack a lone player).

    Probably, Green is too vague in this case..

    EQ2 went one step further and had grey cons.  These were a complete trivial con to the player and unless the player attacked the NPC it would completely ignore the player.  But having a grey con just moves the bar down one further but it does satisfy the need to let high level character bypass content which they outclass by X levels. I'd say it starts when the player is +10 to the  NPC.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at October 20, 2018 4:12 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 4:21 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You said green  I said green. Now, of course, green can be 10 lvls, green can be 20 levels, 45 levels, or even 10 levels designed for 42 players (which would probably smack a lone player).

    Probably, Green is too vague in this case..

    EQ2 went one step further and had grey cons.  These were a complete trivial con to the player and unless the player attacked the NPC it would completely ignore the player.  But having a grey con just moves the bar down one further but it does satisfy the need to let high level character bypass content which they outclass by X levels. I'd say it starts when the player is +10 to the  NPC.

     

    In this case, it shouldn't work once you get in multiple group content and more. But I'm still with "constant aggro even if radius reduced", I find it more engaging even if for some it's "boring and timesink", it remains less "gameplay friendly and more logical".

    • 3852 posts
    October 20, 2018 5:37 PM PDT

    My first major MMO (not counting earlier MUDs) was DAOC. Gray mobs (significantly lower than you were) would not attack unless you attacked them.

    I liked the system then and I like it now - a high level character can go about his or her business without disrupting things for the lower levels. I particularly don't want idiot low level mobs running after me if they follow all the way to a zone line as some people here advocate.

    And I REALLY REALLY don't want them following me if Pantheon follows the crazy EQ system that almost all later games rejected for very good reason and has them attack anyone in the area after I leave rather than going back to their spawn point in a civilized and disciplined manner. Yes I am in the small minority here that considers training a terrible system. No need to tell me why I am wrong I know I have lost - that ship is going to sail.

    It would be so easy for a high level to train most of the lower level people in the zone with no risk to himself or herself without even needing to have or use feign death. That alone is a compelling reason to have trivial mobs ignore you.


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 20, 2018 5:40 PM PDT
    • 945 posts
    October 20, 2018 5:43 PM PDT

    I believe the devs have mentioned that mobs that don't give exp will not agro, and with that said, there were some "green" NPCs in EQ (1 & 2) that still gave exp.  Like someone mentioned, EQ2 had gray mobs to indicate that they NPC wouldn't give xp.  This made navigation through content that you knew intimately expediant as well as experiencing places that you have out leveled but just want to explore because you have never been there before much more enjoyable.  

    I think Vandraad made a good point in regard to this being an open world with dungeons that will span multiple levels; if a particular dungeon spans from level 10-30 and a group of level 30 players enters the begining of the dungeon with the intention to go fight the lvl 30 boss and they have to clear the whole dungeon every time they die there will be little for the level 5-25 groups to do.  It would also appear that there will be even less classes with the ability to navigate without impediment (invisibilty/IVU - The rogue being the only melee and it is uncertain if the DRU/SHM will have invis - potentially leaving only the 3 ranged DPS and ENC) compared to EQ1 where only the Warrior, Paladin, Cleric and Monk couldn't invis, so for those reasons, I'm ok with non-exp yielding NPCs not attacking.  (It may also prevent people from rage-quitting after performing their 327th corpse run while having to kill everything on their way back to their corpse naked).


    This post was edited by Darch at October 20, 2018 5:52 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 5:57 PM PDT

    The problem is that it will create problems for low level goods farm.

     

    If you can just skip a whole dungeon and check the named rooms, skipping all mobs effortless while players of the recommanded area level are fighting they path, you can just nuke the named, loot and get away withouth a chance for any "current level player" to reach the room.

    That means a high level will be the best way to farm a low or mid level item, faster to kill, harder to be killed, and able to reach the deep end withouth drawing any trash mob.

     

     

    I'm not here advocating for loots not to drop for high level players, that would be insanely broken as it was in EQ2, because you allways have catchup to do, a good item to acquire or a gear to start over due to errors,  accidental sales, whatever. And no high level will be a pain for an empty dungeon at 4 AM to just kill everything and get some easy loots to sell, give to a reroll or equip for situationnal cases.

    But let's not make it insanely easy to do when players are hunting in this area.

    • 945 posts
    October 20, 2018 6:01 PM PDT

    Ya, the devs have their work cut out to find a balance - I hope we can give some good feedback during Alpha.  I know they have addressed that they are trying to not have static spawns to avoid high level players camping an area, invevitably preventing players of the appropriate level the opportunity to engage the "camp" (The Frenzy in LGuk comes to mind).

    • 3852 posts
    October 20, 2018 6:25 PM PDT

    For what it is worth - my own opinion that trash mobs should ignore you was focused on landscape mobs. Quite a few games that have trivial mobs ignore you in the landscape have them attack in dungeons and I think MauvaisOeil is right on that point. But "gray" mobs generally do not drop loot - as a disincentive for high levels to rampage in low level dungeons and I think that is entirely rational.

    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 6:51 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    For what it is worth - my own opinion that trash mobs should ignore you was focused on landscape mobs. Quite a few games that have trivial mobs ignore you in the landscape have them attack in dungeons and I think MauvaisOeil is right on that point. But "gray" mobs generally do not drop loot - as a disincentive for high levels to rampage in low level dungeons and I think that is entirely rational.

     

    What do you mean by "gray mobs" ? You think as long as you overcon an ennemy, he should drop nothing ? It was a fiasco in games it was made...

    • 1399 posts
    October 20, 2018 7:15 PM PDT

    I understand the annoyance gray con mobs aggroing on higher level players.

    And high levels "disrupting" lowered levels play.

    I don't understand how throwing the "dumb it down" switch by making them non-aggro could even be considered as a solution.

    I hope Pantheon to be an open world where other players actions, both good or bad, actually has an effect on the world around me.

     

    • 363 posts
    October 20, 2018 7:29 PM PDT

    I agree with this idea and have said it on Discord. I don't like levels, but since they're going to be levels they shouldn't mean you eventually reach some invincible status. All levels of NPC should do the same damage to players no matter what level the player is.  Sure highest level player should be able to handle 2-5 at a time with a healer, but not easily and definitely not 10 at a time. Dodge and block should be the main stats that stop damage so classes with those stats will have a higher chance to evade damage, but still not 100%. This would either mean that only certain classes get higher dodge or block than others. This could be a problem with design obviously, but its an idea that I really like if it is possible.

    Having this will keep the fear in players longer, letting them understand the world is still a dangerous place instead of emboldening them to play recklessly.


    This post was edited by Willeg at October 21, 2018 8:57 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    October 20, 2018 7:54 PM PDT

    ((What do you mean by "gray mobs" ? You think as long as you overcon an ennemy, he should drop nothing ? It was a fiasco in games it was made...))

     

    In some MMOs the color scheme has mobs that you are significantly higher than show as gray. It varies by game but a 8-10 level difference would be typical. Sometimes it varies by character level. A level 1 mob may be more trivial to a level 9 character than a level 92 mob is to a level 100 character.

    The theory behind giving no reward - either xp or drops -  is partly that you shouldn't get rewarded for killing an enemy that offers no challenge at all, and partly that it hurts the game if high levels can benefit by going into low level areas and slaughtering mobs that lower levels *need* because they cannot kill anything else yet. Not merely if you overcon an enemy but if tou are so much stronger that there is essentially no challenge and a dps class can slaughter the enemies quickly and in great numbers. Taking them away from lower level characters easily.

    Not only have I never seen this as a fiasco, to me this is the "normal" way MMOs work and a MMO allowing you to kill trivial mobs for their drops would be the outlier. 

    But if you say this has been a fiasco in some games you may be right - you often are. Can you explain what you mean?


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 20, 2018 7:55 PM PDT
    • 438 posts
    October 20, 2018 7:55 PM PDT
    Eh I believe that even if a mob who’s no longer going to be KOS or offer xp to a player in certain circumstances should raise an alarm. AI is a beautiful thing and will definitely cause a player to be careful of their surroundings
    • 1281 posts
    October 20, 2018 8:43 PM PDT

    I think they should work on the disposition system in the following manner.

     

    If a mob is alone, or not on any of the dispositions, it should leave you alone if it is green to you.  However, if it is an alarmist mob, it should go get its buddies and they should try to attack you as a group.

    • 1479 posts
    October 20, 2018 8:50 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((What do you mean by "gray mobs" ? You think as long as you overcon an ennemy, he should drop nothing ? It was a fiasco in games it was made...))

     

    In some MMOs the color scheme has mobs that you are significantly higher than show as gray. It varies by game but a 8-10 level difference would be typical. Sometimes it varies by character level. A level 1 mob may be more trivial to a level 9 character than a level 92 mob is to a level 100 character.

    The theory behind giving no reward - either xp or drops -  is partly that you shouldn't get rewarded for killing an enemy that offers no challenge at all, and partly that it hurts the game if high levels can benefit by going into low level areas and slaughtering mobs that lower levels *need* because they cannot kill anything else yet. Not merely if you overcon an enemy but if tou are so much stronger that there is essentially no challenge and a dps class can slaughter the enemies quickly and in great numbers. Taking them away from lower level characters easily.

    Not only have I never seen this as a fiasco, to me this is the "normal" way MMOs work and a MMO allowing you to kill trivial mobs for their drops would be the outlier. 

    But if you say this has been a fiasco in some games you may be right - you often are. Can you explain what you mean?

     

    One of the examples I would give is EQ2 : For thoses who knows, there were some heritage quests leading to "classic EQ" items like the polished granite tomahawk. One of the features of EQ2 was that trivial mobs gave no exp, no loots (I think, not sure here) and that trivial quests gave no exp and even NO REWARD.

    That means if you started the PGT heritage quest, you had to complete it at the right level or the rewards would "poof". I did this quest but stood so long in the quest area killing things with a group, the moment I had the full pieces and went to turn back the quest, I outleveled it and got nothing. The sadness was that it was a good upgrade for me, but I had now to find another way to gear up with no money, no upgrade, and a gear that was 5 level late overall.

     

    Cutting loots on trivial mobs is like cutting any catchup. If you are 10 or 20 level late on gear, you can't catchup by killing specific ennemies or camping them to catchup. You have to rely to other players that you will probably have to pay, but the loop here is that with weak gear you can't farm correctly and will have a low chance to be invited in parties, which brings the upgrade and cash problem back.

     

    It also brings the problem of long timer spawns, rare spawns, etc.. that if greykilled, are wasted for everyone. Sharing the same world means killing monster A gives gear A whatever you level is. And if you have to farm components for crafting starter, how would you do if all the greycon rats give no pelt when killed ? I don't think it would bring a healthy game, a game where your level is forcing what you can loot downwards, as it also lessen the benefits of levelling up (which should allways sounds good with no downsides) since you will loose entire areas of drops.

    Some could call it "a vivid economy", but the demographic of an MMO tends to lower the low level range with more people reaching the cap, making it so will make low level components more rare and thus, more prone to inflation. That is quite insane as an  economy if it costs you more from 1 to 50 in leatherworking than going from 200 to 250 due to low population of low levels making thoses low drops very, very rare.

     

    I'm sure there are many more examples here, like quest drops, reroll gear farming, bags farming, recovery from a long absence / corpse loss / cash broke, etc...


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at October 20, 2018 8:53 PM PDT
    • 646 posts
    October 20, 2018 9:18 PM PDT

    dorotea said:Not only have I never seen this as a fiasco, to me this is the "normal" way MMOs work and a MMO allowing you to kill trivial mobs for their drops would be the outlier.

    I assure you, it's not an outlier. It's how every current major MMO works.

    So what, you can only farm for X item or certain crafting mats so long as you're within a certain level range? The only way this would be acceptable is if there's a mentor system you can choose to activate to temporarily de-level you. The negative impact on the low level economy as the game ages would be astounding if mobs stopped dropping loot for higher level players.

    • 1785 posts
    October 20, 2018 11:34 PM PDT

    I've seen several different approaches in games over the years.

    There are pros and cons to having mobs aggro even if they wouldn't give experience.  Likewise, there are pros and cons to Trivial Loot Code, where you turn off loot for someone who is too far above the level of the mob.

    Long story short, there's no perfect solution.  Every level-based game - and I do mean every level-based game - runs up against this problem.  Do you let players run through areas with impunity, making it easier for them to get to named mobs or boss encounters?  Do you prevent them from looting those encounters, and in turn potentially prevent someone from completing a quest or something just because they leveled before they got the drop?  Do you try to work around that by putting all your stuff that drops quest items on triggers and scaling the mob level to the person that triggered it?

    And even if you do all that, how do you stop the farmer from using a high level account to clear a path to the named, then bring in their low level account, and kill and loot the named mob with the low level character?  Or any of a dozen other exploits that people will figure out regardless of what you do?

    I don't think it's possible to design a perfect system.

    So instead, what I hope for is a world where characters don't get to be demigods.  Where no one can simply wade through masses of green/grey things with impunity, regardless of the reasons.  If we're so big on Terminus being a world that's actually challenging again, then we need to make damn sure people can't get around that challenge just by grinding out a few more levels.

    As far as how to implement that?  I can think of a few ways.  They're simplistic.  They won't stop every exploit.  They might not be fair for every situation.  They might even need to be applied selectively, where things behave one way in some zones or areas and differently in others.  Those bandits out in the woods?  They know when they're outclassed and they'll back off.  The ones in the hideout though?  They see someone like that coming, and they break out the really nasty toys.

    My opinion:  Challenge shouldn't be bypassed just because of a number.  Having a higher level should mean something, yes, but it shouldn't be a free pass to go wherever you want without interference.  In each and every zone in the game, the developers should ask the question:  "Does it make sense that someone high level could run through here without consequences?"  If that answer's no, then there should be consequences.  Ideally, creative ones that would strongly encourage someone to sync their level down and play with a level-appropriate group for whatever they're after.

    That's my opinion.


    This post was edited by Nephele at October 20, 2018 11:36 PM PDT
    • 753 posts
    October 21, 2018 5:43 AM PDT

    Isn't this mostly solvable by varying agro ranges and mob behaviors?

    That is, as a general rule of thumb, as you get increasingly higher than a given mob in level, the range at which it will be affected by you being there decreases - and, as you infringe upon that agro range, maybe it behaves differently than it would have when you were on level with it?

    I can see a lot of variety being included by just doing these things.   

    - The range at which a scout mob reacts to you actually increases because you are more dangerous to them, but mobs run and hide from you rather than attack you.

    - "A something warrior" mob cowers in fear.

    - A "something the crazy" or "something the insane" mob doesn't care how much higher you are, and attacks just like it normally would.

    - Etc...

    I could see this being implemented slightly differently in different areas of the game.  For example, perhaps a mob that would run away in the open world is more "brave" deep inside a dungeon because there is no place to run anyway.


    This post was edited by Wandidar at October 21, 2018 5:45 AM PDT
    • 4 posts
    October 21, 2018 7:40 AM PDT

    It makes perfect sense not to be attacked when you are so overpowered compared to the mobs you run through.

    Would you (mob) run up to a heavily armed and armored swat member(you) threatening to kill him when the only thing you have wield is a wooden stick?

    I'd say the mob would be smart enough to live another day and fight battles that he can win in such scenarios......

    Now, how the AI works and in what circumstances you are in can vary but what I CAN imagine happening...

    - The longer a high level character roams around a low level zone is that the mobs get increasingly harder to kill(for him/her!). Whether it is the increase in hitpoints or output in dps compared to the skills of the player. This scenario makes sense since the mobs would have time to call in stronger reinforcements that have to travel from somewhere else to arrive on the battlefront.

    Ofcourse, it would add an extra layer of complexity in coding of the mobs, in my opinion it should not interrupt *normal* gameplay, since you do not want those same mobs to be encountered by the *normal* level players. Therefor I suggest the mobs can gauge you and act accordingly after a number of encounters/time/rulesets and resets daily or so.

    Just my 2cp....

     

    • 3852 posts
    October 21, 2018 8:19 AM PDT

    I agree that being unable to get quest rewards because your level goes up can be ...less than ideal. My earlier comments applied only to what individual mobs dropped when they were killed e.g. 20 copper pieces or a hog's intestine or the like. If a level 1 pig drops a low value item (by mid-game standards) but a class with good area attacks can kill every pig in the starter zone in one minute it may be worthwhile (and totally safe) for a level 20 to make life totally miserable for starting players by taking all the pigs. 

    Attracting new people is important - the last thing a game wants is to make the first 10 levels a miserable hyper-competitive experience. People are usually happiest with less pressure as they learn the commands and basic strategies. I stand by my opinion that at least in landscape you do not want higher levels to be able to wreck the new player experience so easily. 

    Obviously a high level can always come in and kill the pigs but if he or she gets no reward whatsoever it is clear that this is just griefing low levels and calls for discipline. If the high level gets - cumulatively from a lot of kills - decent money or decent experience not only do you encourage game-wrecking behavior but no punishment is possible or desirable - they are doing what you encouraged them to do.

    Combine level one mobs dropping loot for a level 20, level one mobs aggroing on level 20s so that it is easy to round up dozens or scores of mobs fast, and the training mechanism letting the high level move the mobs to where low levels are farming and then let all the mobs go and you have a recipe for a nightmare for any new player. Any time a greedy or bored level 20 is in the mood either the level 2 players have nothing to kill or they get repeatedly wiped by 20 mobs brought over to them. 

    Yes you want people to learn to pay attention to the environment and realize that what other players do matters to them but not this dramatically.

    I have no fondness for level 50s doing this in a level 30 area either but I focus on starter areas because initial impressions are critical and what happens there will affect the game population and subscription revenue a lot more than what happens at level 30.

    By the way, one way to ease the problem of people needing or wanting items but the bosses that drop them are now too much lower level than they is to use a bad word ((blush)). Instances. Have some bosses in instances and have them reset to the level of the group coming in. Or even have them non-instanced but reset their level to that of the first character getting into combat range. I see a lot of problems and abuse with the latter, however.


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 21, 2018 8:20 AM PDT
    • 172 posts
    October 21, 2018 8:37 AM PDT
    To touch on your point of the disposition system. there is always potential for them to add a chance for any mob to spawn with a disposition, let's call it the "hot head" disposition, to where the con takes no effect on aggro.

    But in the event that you aggro low con mobs or they call for help, be it from a higher level or what's nearby, seems tedious. Especially taking in to account corpse runs. This is one simple example i thought of, not the end all be all.. Retrieving your corpse is probably going to be an issue having to face even con mobs naked, find help, or just make it back to that part of the world. How much more difficult is it going to be when you're dragging the entire zone around naked trying to even get there to begin with?

    I think having mobs ignore you at a certain point makes sense.. if I'm level 50 and I get aggro from every level 25 mob, that doesn't make me feel powerful or high level. At that point it boils down to tedium for me. Mobs should respect the difference in power just as much as players should. To the extent of a disposition at least.

    As someone noted earlier, it wouldn't be fair to the lower levels in the area too. Now I have to sit around and have my grind delayed because some higher level needs to pass through my camp to get to their corpse?