Thanks a lot for all your comments guys! I think like Philo and Mauvaisoiel are on to something. Yes Ogre warrior might be the strongest and have a good amount of hp, but a Halfling warrior might dodge, parry, and crit more. Both options are great, maybe with a slight favor to the Ogre, but maybe the Halfling can dish out a bit more dps, and on sertan fights dodge might be better, than flat out hp.
I would love to see differences in acclimation, resists, vision, Professions and even moment speed for each class. Maybe Ogres could run at 95% speed, and Elfs, Halfling and Skar would get 105% movement speed nothing dramatic, but it would be a penalty and a Perk.
I don't think starting areas should be a factor, in my opptnion each starting area should be viable and offer similar options to the player. An example: The Dwarfs are very resistant to cold and extreme cold acclimation, but suffer a penalty in fire resist and extreme heat acclimation. They see well in Dark and have a high starting stat in Str/sta/con.
The Dwarfs are running at 95% speed duo to their small but chunky body. The Dwarfs are great weapon and armor smiths and are known for the mastery of Coldark Steel Dwarfs will get +10 to smithing. I'm glad to hear that xp will not a factor to calculate in the race balance, sometimes as a Troll in Eq a grp would not party, because the over all xp needed to lvl for the grp increased, and that was not beneficial at all.
Please continue with ideas and let us know how you would like to see it.
Race Passive ideas:
Human - Quicklearners - humans will increase each skill faster. When swapping weapons, or just lvled it won't be a big deal for any human, this will help in the lvling phase a lot - but at max lvl with max skills it will have a factor = 0. Humans will also learn Professions faster than other classes %5 faster.
Elf - Agile - The agility of the elfs is unmatched, giving them + 3% to dodge and take less damage from falling, ontop of this the Elf walk and run almost with no sound making them masters in sneaking.
Archai - Adapterble - Due to the harsh upcoming of the Archai their bodys has adapted to big changes. When facing any acclimation the Archi bodys will adapt and provide a small bonus to that specifik acclimation. Archi will get +5 to fire and Cold resist.
I hope it's something like this we will see from VR when we talk passive Race abilities. Nothing game changing, but enough to enhance the feeling and idea the race. And with the resist, movement speed, vision, profession and stat variation ontop of this. We will get a lot of options to mix and match our race and races combination.
It should be purely cosmetic, or at the very least have no bearing on combat. In EQ, and even early WoW, certain races were simply better at certain classes. This meant that all things being equal, at end game content, you choose the person who min/max'd their race 12 months before by picking the correct one.
Out of combat bonuses are fine. Lore and faction bonuses/penalties are fine. Any bonus or penalty that would make a specific race worse at a class they are able to play I am 100% against. If you want lore reasons why a race shouldn't be good at a class then don't allow that race to be that class. I want to be able to pick my race based on what appeals to me without having to consider how it will affect my chances at end game content.
To anyone who may say "but that wont happen!"... it did happen in EQ. Halflings and humans weren't main tanks in raids. Iksar made the best monks due to regen. These things mattered. The community should be mature enough to not force these constraints on people but lets face it, they will occur. The design team has the ability to prevent this sort of potential toxicity by simply not making certain races subpar at certain classes.
To anyone who may say "but that wont happen!"... it did happen in EQ. Halflings and humans weren't main tanks in raids. Iksar made the best monks due to regen. These things mattered. The community should be mature enough to not force these constraints on people but lets face it, they will occur. The design team has the ability to prevent this sort of potential toxicity by simply not making certain races subpar at certain classes.
Yes, but no. This is only relevant to gamechanging racials (Anti stun) and too much benefit on some stats (STR/STA) with little benefit of others (AGI/DEX).
Of course, Min maxxers will focus on the best race for the best class, but if the difference is here but not gamebreaking like it was in EQ, it will only matter to top end Mix Maxxers, like Panderens during MOP in Wow, whose racial was just better for everyone. But only Hardcore PVErs switched to Pandarens back then, everyone else just didn't care because it was less than 1%.
Minor but real differences affecting combat may well have the impact EppE and others mention - as they say there is much precendent for this happening.
Let us turn our attention to crafting. Suppose a race can gain crafting skill slightly faster, has a slightly higher chance of a critical success, or gets some other real (but minor) crafting advantage. In one craft not for crafting in general. A craft that is associated in lore with that race.
This will not have the disadvantage a combat bonus will have. You won't need to be in a group and get peer approval before sitting down at a loom or standing at a forge.
It will encourage having multiple characters but not require it. I think encouraging alts is good for the game in many ways - not least it slows the mad dash to level-cap for anyone that plays alts before maxing out the first character.
It will encourage trying different races and seeing their starting areas and learning their lore a bit. A race I would never consider might be good at a craft I intended to try and thus I might shrug my shoulders and create one just to see.
On the negative side it would correctly be viewed as a negative by anyone who just was willing to play one character. It wouldn't let them be "the best" at crafts where another race got a bonus. But to counteract this - it might slow them in maxing out their crafting and make it a teeny bit harder to make an item but they *would* be able to get to the same maximum skill level and make the same items as any other race.
I think the plusses outweigh the minuses. And, of course, other games have had race impact crafting although in these benighted days where every character can do anything and the race to level cap takes 20 minutes (slight exaggeration) we do not see it much.
BamBam said: Thanks a lot for all your comments guys! I think like Philo and Mauvaisoiel are on to something. Yes Ogre warrior might be the strongest and have a good amount of hp, but a Halfling warrior might dodge, parry, and crit more. Both options are great, maybe with a slight favor to the Ogre, but maybe the Halfling can dish out a bit more dps, and on sertan fights dodge might be better, than flat out hp. [...]
Although I derailed myself in nostalgia, this is what I was getting at. If the Ogre frontal stun immune is a thing, the halfling would get stunned, but instead would be able to avoid 50% of hits from agi (full pie-belly allowing him to stop, lean on his belly and instantly change direction, or something).
EppE said:To anyone who may say "but that wont happen!"... it did happen in EQ. Halflings and humans weren't main tanks in raids. Iksar made the best monks due to regen. These things mattered. The community should be mature enough to not force these constraints on people but lets face it, they will occur. The design team has the ability to prevent this sort of potential toxicity by simply not making certain races subpar at certain classes.
Those statements are patently false. I knew plenty of guilds where the main raid tank was Human. Fire of Heavens for example had Furor, human male as the main tank. My guild had a gnome MT and we had no issues at all going through all the content. Iksars, on paper would appear to be the best monks but were not, hands down, the best monks. Regen meant squat when a raid mob would quad hit you for 1000.
BamBam said:Race Passive ideas:
Human - Quicklearners - humans will increase each skill faster. When swapping weapons, or just lvled it won't be a big deal for any human, this will help in the lvling phase a lot - but at max lvl with max skills it will have a factor = 0. Humans will also learn Professions faster than other classes %5 faster.
Elf - Agile - The agility of the elfs is unmatched, giving them + 3% to dodge and take less damage from falling, ontop of this the Elf walk and run almost with no sound making them masters in sneaking.
Archai - Adapterble - Due to the harsh upcoming of the Archai their bodys has adapted to big changes. When facing any acclimation the Archi bodys will adapt and provide a small bonus to that specifik acclimation. Archi will get +5 to fire and Cold resist.
I hope it's something like this we will see from VR when we talk passive Race abilities. Nothing game changing, but enough to enhance the feeling and idea the race. And with the resist, movement speed, vision, profession and stat variation ontop of this. We will get a lot of options to mix and match our race and races combination.
As this has been discussed ad length over the years, one common point to be made is that if you want some perk/positive that no other race has you need a corresponding negative to offset it. You want human to learn skills faster? Fine, but they need to then level slightly slower. Thus the 'experience' they focus on is learning skills so is taken away from the experience that would apply to leveling.
You want agile elves? Fine, lower than average constitution and/or strength.
Your Archie example? That is good, but they have a penalty to disease, poison and magic resists.
Again, if you want a positive, you need a negative to balance it out.
Or VR could just make it so the racial passives are passed down through progeny, up to a cap. This would eliminate there being a single meta choice for race/archetype as players would be able to benefit from any combination they prefer as long as they are willing to dedicate themselves. As far as needing to balance a negative into things ... I would already consider the limited class selection to factor into that. Ogres for example can only play a grand total of 4 classes compared to 14 for humans. There doesn't need to be a perfect balance with things ... if you do that then choices don't feel meaningful. Give every race a couple unique/desirable features and let players choose what aligns with their playstyle. If your favorite race/class combo doesn't offer exactly what you're looking for then join the "prestige club" that is known as progeny and do something about it. I see immersion cited for just about everything you can imagine when it comes to gameplay. Character select isn't some sort of job application where VR is beholden to the FEA -- build your fantasy world and make it so racial choice is more than aesthetic. Anything less would be a terrible missed opportunity, in my opinion.
Here are some examples of what I would like to see:
Archai:
1) Arcane Core -- Archai can choose the element(s) of their arcane core (the glowing striations, markings and textures seen on their skin) during their "True Birth" ceremony -- this will provide a medium-grade acclimation/resist bonus to the corresponding element(s).
2) Indomitable Will -- Archai have an X% chance to resist any hostile mind-altering effects.
Dark Myr:
1) Of The Sea -- Dark Myr have an affinity for water and as such, have an innate medium-grade bonus for water resist and pressure acclimation. They also have an X% bonus to their swimming speed and increased breath duration while swimming underwater.
2) Vengeance -- Whenever an ally is slain or in critical health in the presence of a Dark Myr they are filled with vengeant passion, granting X% increased damage/healing for a limited duration. (Does not stack. Allies would need to be in the same group/raid and potentially be within a certain level range of the Dark Myr to qualify. Cooldown might be appropriate.)
Dwarves:
1) Khazas' Blessing -- Dwarves are forged from ice and stone and as such have an innate medium-grade bonus for cold resist and frigid acclimation. They also have a small defensive bonus while adventuring indoors.
2) Impervious -- The stone like stature of Dwarves grants them a natural resistance to hostile poison, disease, and toxic abilities, reducing their duration and effectiveness by X%.
Manouk said:I never remembered mages being hindered by a penalty. So I just looked it up. And it seems that mages were mathematically below average, but functionally average. But your friend, a troll sk was as bad as it could get :DMe, being a mage also had a exp hinderence because I was a hybrid (but I didit know what that meant at the time
Meh I give up trying to add a link into text so here are the original eq numbers.
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/orginal-everquest-experience-numbers-required-to-level.229274/
I think it would make a lot of sense if each race had some inherent advantages over the others when fighting/harvesting/crafting under the conditions prevailing in their starting areas. These conditions could include climates/atmospheres, type of mobs and raw materials.
It shouldn't be too difficult to have such perks and passives fit in with the lore to provide some of that difference in flavor craved by the OP. And it would not make one race the "only" choice for a role in raiding; on the contrary, it would encourage raid leaders to consider different races for different encounters.
At least in theory... :)
Jabir said:on the contrary, it would encourage raid leaders to consider different races for different encounters.
"Sorry, we can't take you to Mega Boss #2, because you're an Archai and I want players with the Dwarf resistance to [insert whatever here]."
And yes, if the differences are large enough to actually matter, this would happen.
Well, like in EQ, they said they will have stat caps and different starting stats. This isn't a bad thing. Once velious came out your halfling warrior had all of his necessary stats maxed like an Ogre warrior would. The only difference between them was gear. A halfling warrior would go for bigger STR and STA boosted items while the Ogre warrior went for more DEX and AGI gear. I actually like this because it makes BIS type of items different for each race.
The big difference was only racial passives, not the stat distribution. Ogre frontal immunity was amazing. Made progression and life way easier. So the developers need to watch out for imblanced passives. The Iksar necro was way more efficient with lich than a dark elf necro. A dark elf necro had way more down time than an Iksar necro because Iksar had passive health regen that mitigated lich tremendously, making a lot of dark elf necros I knew switch to Iksar.
So all I am worried about in the end is the racial passive balancing. If they do the gear right then it doesn't matter what race you do start as with different starting stats, because you will be able to hard cap the stats you need regardless.
Watemper said:
So all I am worried about in the end is the racial passive balancing. If they do the gear right then it doesn't matter what race you do start as with different starting stats, because you will be able to hard cap the stats you need regardless.
Agreed, as a Human Paladin, I was extremely good at running in to walls in the dark, and advancing my xp slower than my friends. *LOL*
Fulton said:Watemper said:
So all I am worried about in the end is the racial passive balancing. If they do the gear right then it doesn't matter what race you do start as with different starting stats, because you will be able to hard cap the stats you need regardless.
Agreed, as a Human Paladin, I was extremely good at running in to walls in the dark, and advancing my xp slower than my friends. *LOL*
I was also a Human Paladin...So was my dad...and my stepmom..we all were human paladins because we all wanted to start off in the same place. So our group comp was always 3 paladins..and SK troll we adopted into our group..and a healer and something else.
As much as I like racial bonuses, and love to min/max, and as much as I like to see the rare gnome warrior disprove people who think such a thing is impossible, I would rather not see it. Racial bonsues don't bring more positives than negatives to the game. Overall, I feel it's fairly neutral. So if it isn't a big positive, don't waste time working on it.
Worse case scenario, you have something like EQ2, where they shuffed racial bonuses a few times in the early game and allowed you to reselect your starting stats/bonsues. Let's avoid any chance of that.
I think modern MMORPGs have moved too far away from the racial bonuses/penalties. It all depends on if you are actually building an RPG or if you are just crafting another multiplayer action game. VR needs to consider what kind of game they are creating, what their priorities are. Are you trying to create a perfectly "balanced" game? They should probably reduce the class choices if that's the case and streamline everything so all classes play the same. Fortunately I don't think that is the objective of VR so having a lot of classes that play differently should be fine.
When does the min/max thing really matter? Raiding. Is Pantheon going to be a raid heavy title? Usually having a halfling warrior wasn't a big deal in EQ unless you were doing the most hardcore raid content. I think it's important for VR to determine now well before Pantheon is launched if they are gonna be going in that direction because if the game is going to be heavily raid focused you may as well gut the classes/races now and get it over with.
Naunet said:"Sorry, we can't take you to Mega Boss #2, because you're an Archai and I want players with the Dwarf resistance to [insert whatever here]."
And yes, if the differences are large enough to actually matter, this would happen.
True, but I'm sure the Dwarf chosen instead would be ecstatic. My point was that next time the message could be:
"Sorry, we can't take you to Mega Boss #3, because you're a Dwarf and I want players with the Archai resistance to [insert whatever here]."
It quickly becomes difficult to come up with ideas to make the world and the journey diversified and interesting if everything has to be designed so everybody has the exact same chance of being chosen by number-chrunching raid leaders 50 levels later, but at least my suggestion tries to let every level 50 dog has his day.
Watemper said:Well, like in EQ, they said they will have stat caps and different starting stats. This isn't a bad thing. Once velious came out your halfling warrior had all of his necessary stats maxed like an Ogre warrior would. The only difference between them was gear. A halfling warrior would go for bigger STR and STA boosted items while the Ogre warrior went for more DEX and AGI gear. I actually like this because it makes BIS type of items different for each race.
See, this is fine.
Jabir said:True, but I'm sure the Dwarf chosen instead would be ecstatic. My point was that next time the message could be:"Sorry, we can't take you to Mega Boss #3, because you're a Dwarf and I want players with the Archai resistance to [insert whatever here]."
It quickly becomes difficult to come up with ideas to make the world and the journey diversified and interesting if everything has to be designed so everybody has the exact same chance of being chosen by number-chrunching raid leaders 50 levels later, but at least my suggestion tries to let every level 50 dog has his day.
But this is not. It would be a horrible feeling to have very little chance to see a particular encounter just because of the race you chose at character creation.
I have been playing MMO's for almost 15 years and not once have I ever seen someone sat out of a raid or group because of their racial choice. I have seen many interesting race/archetype combinations used successfully at a high level. If people are worried about not being able to experience an encounter because of their race then they need to start running their own groups. None of us are beholden to a meta guide.
Watemper said:Well, like in EQ, they said they will have stat caps and different starting stats. This isn't a bad thing. Once velious came out your halfling warrior had all of his necessary stats maxed like an Ogre warrior would. The only difference between them was gear. A halfling warrior would go for bigger STR and STA boosted items while the Ogre warrior went for more DEX and AGI gear. I actually like this because it makes BIS type of items different for each race.
Yuck, that wasn't so easy. First it took 2 expansions, a terriffic statflation on gear, and beeing deep in the raid scene to attain this state. Second, Agi was completely underwhelming, unless you had less than 75 where you suffered a heavy malus, either you had 75 or more (which was attained by all but ogres and troll by start, except if they spent 5 of their 20 starting points or had a simple buff / a sum of 5 agi over their whole gear) and your had no malus, but points offered little to no effective bonus here and capping agi as an ogre was tremendously less beneficial than a Hafling capping sta or str. Dex was another subject but since it only benefited weapon procs and some spell proc, you effectively never needed DEX before reaching the high level range, most procs (if not all procs) at low level beeing either absent or minimal (no bonus threat gen).
I also don't think aiming for "the game when stats are capped" should be the norm or a goal of some sort. Stat capping mostly occurs to avoid BIS focusing on a single stat while ignoring "most" else, not to cap every stat in raid situation, or you just loose the whole benefit of buffs and such. EQ was a failure in this model because even with AA increasing your statcap, you where usually capped with your main stats and it made avatar or prismatic weapons less of a benefit, if not no benefit for some.
oneADseven said:I have been playing MMO's for almost 15 years and not once have I ever seen someone sat out of a raid or group because of their racial choice. I have seen many interesting race/archetype combinations used successfully at a high level. If people are worried about not being able to experience an encounter because of their race then they need to start running their own groups. None of us are beholden to a meta guide.
The one raid that really stands out with racial choice was Molten Core and Dwarven Priests for Fearward, specifically for the big dog. Every priest was required to be a dwarf until they nerfed that ability for being overpowered.
Even so, the idea that there is a single optimal choice for race/class combination is completely voided if you allow racial benefits to be passed down through progeny. Players could mix and match their passives based on their playstyle and ultimately end up playing their preferred race at the end. I think it would be interesting if each race had 3-4 traits which would allow players to double/triple down on the same race as a "purist" if that's what they want to do. There are plenty of ways to go about it but too much emphasis on balance would just lead to every choice feeling bland.
Yeah but I don't think anyone is suggesting absurd stat differences either, and abilities scale with multiple stats (often 3+).
For example if we look at Dire Lord, it doesn't look like an ogre would be much better off than a human regardless of them (likely) having higher starting STR/STA. Some abilities they would be better off and others they'd likely find themselves behind the human who would have higher AGI/INT.
Mathir said:The one raid that really stands out with racial choice was Molten Core and Dwarven Priests for Fearward, specifically for the big dog. Every priest was required to be a dwarf until they nerfed that ability for being overpowered.
That can't be right. Horde didn't even have access to fear ward and that didn't stop them from successfully raiding at the cutting edge.
Iksar said:Mathir said:The one raid that really stands out with racial choice was Molten Core and Dwarven Priests for Fearward, specifically for the big dog. Every priest was required to be a dwarf until they nerfed that ability for being overpowered.
That can't be right. Horde didn't even have access to fear ward and that didn't stop them from successfully raiding at the cutting edge.
They had Totem of tremor for what it's worth. But players were way more clever than using fear ward on that boss. They just had OT1/2 in zerk stance waiting for the fear to pop and would simply use berserker rage and intercept back the boss with a taunt. Really, who forced Dwarves for such a simple mechanic ? Dwarves, then draenei, were strong by anticipation but it was clearly offsetable with just basic thechniques that were still very cloudy for most of the playerbase. Same goes for nightbane in kharazan, but there the DPS was important as it was a 10 man raid and not 40 where slacking wasn't even a problem, thus having two tanks would bring problems.