Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Racial Perks and passives.

    • 627 posts
    October 18, 2018 10:43 AM PDT
    HI i would like to ask our community on where they stand, when we talk racial perks and passives.

    In order to make a class feel different from the other, I think VR needs to make big stat variations, and racial passive that is enhancing the race experience and story telling.

    Looking at Trolls from Eq they get a nice rgn passive and good starting stats for a fighter class. But is hit hard with a wobbling 20% more xp needed to lvl and a -20 fire resist, ontop they were kill on sight in most cities aswell.

    My question to our community is how would you like to balance races out?

    Will you pick a race if you need to invest 20% more time in it to level to max?

    Should xp penalties even be on the table?

    What happens when one race are "The Best" at a sertan class? Like (Ogre warrior tanks in Eq).

    • 3852 posts
    October 18, 2018 10:54 AM PDT

    I prefer significant differences so that a choice of race actually *matters* for more than appearance.

    But the argument that if one race is clearly better it may be harder for others to get spots in groups is valid. So any plus must be balanced by a minus that is equally relevant to the classes that race can have.

    • 2752 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    Generally not a fan of most active ability racial perks but I am totally okay with passives that give a slightly unique feel to a race. 

     

    There shouldn't be exp penalties and things like faction standings or other impermanent "penalties" should not factor in to any balancing against permanent beneficial bonuses. 

    • 34 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:12 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    I prefer significant differences so that a choice of race actually *matters* for more than appearance.

    But the argument that if one race is clearly better it may be harder for others to get spots in groups is valid. So any plus must be balanced by a minus that is equally relevant to the classes that race can have.

     

    I would have to agree with dorotea on this. There should be a reason to choose one race over another depending on the class you wish to play, but there would need to be balances to keep all the races involved in the game.

    • 696 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:24 AM PDT

    I really like out of combat racial passives. Also different stat distributions among races is a  given...but what I hated was that some races where musts...like Ogre Warrior with frontal stun immunity...or Troll Shaman with health regen and...or later on iksar necros, also with health regen..with there racial passives making them very good.

    Don't get me wrong..other races could handle the job..so I shouldnt say must haves...but you could clearly see optimal races for min/maxing and stuff like that.

    If they do combat racials...which I am for...they need to make sure, which takes time, to make sure that they are balanced and not create must have races for each class.


    This post was edited by Watemper at October 18, 2018 11:27 AM PDT
    • 646 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:26 AM PDT

    I disagree with racials affecting race/class decisions to any significant degree. The choice that matters is player preference in what they want to play. We shouldn't be forced into making one choice or another because X race is all but useless as Y class.

    People always talk about "choices mattering" - well, they do matter, to the individual making the decision. When you force folk into certain choices based on racials, that isn't making choice matter - that's just restricting options and punishing people who have differing aesthetic preferences.


    This post was edited by Naunet at October 18, 2018 11:28 AM PDT
    • 107 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:38 AM PDT

    I like racial differences a lot myself. For example I think Dark Myr should be able to flat out swim better AND breathe under water. I know the lore is already showing they are unable to breathe under the water of Terminus but I still think as powerful and helpful as this may be that it is a good thing.

     

    I'm not a fan of stat boosts however. For example Ogres just flat out geting more helth and strength making them the ideal tank in every situation. Sure it may make sense but it hurts the game. Things like immunity to stun on the other hand might work better since this makes an Ogre the ideal tank for Boss X but a halfling gaining massive resistences to poisons the best for boss Y. So I do want them to make a difference, even in combat, but not one where a certain race is best in ALL situations.

    • 2752 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:44 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    I disagree with racials affecting race/class decisions to any significant degree. The choice that matters is player preference in what they want to play. We shouldn't be forced into making one choice or another because X race is all but useless as Y class.

    People always talk about "choices mattering" - well, they do matter, to the individual making the decision. When you force folk into certain choices based on racials, that isn't making choice matter - that's just restricting options and punishing people who have differing aesthetic preferences.

    It will matter but not to the point that a halfling warrior cannot tank or is clearly much worse than an ogre warrior.

     

    On a high level, overall, there must be balance. If not, everyone would feel compelled to play only the race/class combination more powerful than the others. That said, what race you choose will involve receiving different racial innate abilities that can and will be handy while adventuring. So, there will be times when the race you choose is to your and your party’s advantage, other times neutral, and other times to your disadvantage. Same with classes. They will all be useful in any serious dungeon or other adventure area but one may be more advantageous in certain scenarios and situations.

     

    zendrel said:

    I like racial differences a lot myself. For example I think Dark Myr should be able to flat out swim better AND breathe under water. I know the lore is already showing they are unable to breathe under the water of Terminus but I still think as powerful and helpful as this may be that it is a good thing.

     

    I'm not a fan of stat boosts however. For example Ogres just flat out geting more helth and strength making them the ideal tank in every situation. Sure it may make sense but it hurts the game. Things like immunity to stun on the other hand might work better since this makes an Ogre the ideal tank for Boss X but a halfling gaining massive resistences to poisons the best for boss Y. So I do want them to make a difference, even in combat, but not one where a certain race is best in ALL situations.

    Stat boost differences are good. They tend to be the easiest to overcome with gear in a game with soft/hard caps (as Pantheon will), and since we know most abilities will scale from a handful of different stats it won't always be the high STR/STA warrior that wins out.


    This post was edited by Iksar at October 18, 2018 11:49 AM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:46 AM PDT

    I knew  Troll SK. we met up accidentally- he wanted to get into erudin and found there was no evil side from the docks, so he FD'd his way out and I found him in Toxx. I helped him sell and he was impressed with how much I got form the emrchants, he thought I was giving him plat but I wasn't. We adventured and did hard things as a duo mage and SK in the warrens and lived. After every fight we bound wounds- and it helped my self-worth because I could summon bandages. Anyways he wanted to be a troll SK because of the racial hinderences, he wanted to play a hard game. Me, being a mage also had a exp hinderence because I was a hybrid (but I didit know what that meant at the time). When we explored as much as we could in stonebrunt, I took the trip to qeynos and Karana's to see if I could find a wizard to port back and port us both out to....someplace I had never been before but Ruzuk knew about. He was known in Neriak and commons areas and I didnt know what those were but I heard of the tunnel.  We met a Druid (Jeyna), and then a ranger,who changed to a chanter(Mendath) and a cleric (Cylindrias) and we grouped as 5 for ever. Loklan maybe tried to break us up but whatever.

    and today, there is a kick-butt Troll SK who- if he's in the group, you know you will win the encounter. and hes nice and he starts PuG's for anyone if they need to catch up in progression, or hard missions.

     

    So I think racial passives and perks are good and should be left in. If the dreaded word "balance" were to be used I think it should be used in racvial passives and perks. Maybe not so much for exp penalty, although if the initial reasoning was sound then leave it in, but things like weakness to fire balanced with a boost to regen, that makes sense. Likewise something like, if humans can be any class, then they are weaker in overall stats- or whatever the game-master has decided. 

    • 1479 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:57 AM PDT

    I'm ok with races with exp penalty but I don't think they should be a mean to balance racials, because in the end, everyone is top level (even if it's longer) and racials can make too much of a difference, like ogre frontal stun + slam.

     

    I don't consider trolls/iksar regen as so much of an advantage because it's mostly a solo and levelling perk. In a group situation the benefit is pretty low unnoticeable, thus it's good if it's balanced with an Exp penalty.

    It's important not to make a role too mandatory and tied to racials, like ogre used to be in EQ1, it's fine that differences are present (like better stats for some races) but not if it's cutting the possibility to play at a good efficiency if you picked another one (like... wood elves warriors). Stamina as an example was great for warriors, strength too, but agility was so minimal and dex was pretty useless at low level and low gear.

     

    Ensuring all racial statistics are close to be equally usefull is a first step in making every race more than viable.

     

    For actives.. eh, EQ2 was the example of "everybody doesn't need an active combat ability", I'm fine with some utilities (hide, sneak, forage, tracking, etc... ).

    • 2752 posts
    October 18, 2018 12:05 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    ...racials can make too much of a difference, like ogre frontal stun + slam.

    I don't think it should be much of a problem now so long as there are ways to get the same or similar results in the game. For example I think ogre with innate frontal stun immunity would be 100% fine in Pantheon given other tanks/characters could obtain the same by other means, such as:

    Imbue Trait: Thunderpaw's Resilience

    You harness the resilient nature of the Thunderpaw’s frame. This Trait greatly increases the Stamina and Armor Class of your target and makes them nearly impossible to stun with physical attacks.

    • 1921 posts
    October 18, 2018 12:39 PM PDT

    BamBam said: HI i would like to ask our community on where they stand, when we talk racial perks and passives. ...

    Had this to say in 2016 on the topic, still seems relevant.

    Thought i had posted this, but apparently not..

    For each race, something like this would be, I think, innovative, fun and not imbalancing;

    -Frailties
    Randomly, at character creation, and outside the control of the player, your character may suffer from: phobias, allergies, positive reactions, negative reactions, chronic conditions like narcolepsy, random sneezing, random burping, farting, and body odor that monsters and NPCs react to. These specific effects would NOT be revealed to the player immediately or obviously, but would become complete after significant play time was invested. Optionally: As a bonus for veteran players, the random effects could be seen at character creation, but not changed. Optionally, a completely new set of these "flavor frailties" could be generated if the "random" option was used to generate the character.
    The allergies could cause the player to change skin color temporarily/randomly, or have strange particle effects, dizziness animations, drunken animations, trip & fall, cower or scream in fear from spiders, (if they're arachnophobic). Flavor Frailties coul be reactions to other atmospheric bugs (flies, bees, gnats, mosquitos, ants), darkness, light, dirt, water, cleanliness, cloth types, metals, gems, and so on. Of course, random burping is easy, but other effects could be race specific. Same with farting, both for animations and particle effects. This would add a whole new dimension to idle animations and/or combat animations and flavor text.
    To be clear, this would have no negative effect on combat, unless the player enabled it or opted in for that.  Out of combat though, it seems reasonable that it would be on all the time. :)  This would also be an area where community input could have a significant role.  Similarly, some racial abilities might be tied to the ability to summon these things, which other races were phobic of.  Something like.. Halflings can summon flavor bees, while Skar immediately kill the bees, and elves wave their hands randomly at the bees.  Maybe ogre farts attract clouds of flies, making everyone else shoo the flies away.

    Some of this can tie into a luring, tempting and distracting crafting-based class-agnostic single-pull mechanic via food/drink/crafting, but that's a bit off topic for this thread.

    • 560 posts
    October 18, 2018 1:20 PM PDT

    I find in the beginning I have yet to get attached to what my characters looks so I have very little interest at what I look like. I do care enough that I do not look ugly so I normally shy away from undead or ogre types but that is about it. So for me having other passive abilities adds a lot to my race selection. I also have a preference that the ability is passive.

    However I also agree with others statements that the dangers of having the advantages for a race class combo being so good it can feel as if it is not a choice. I can also see how for others who care deeply what they look like could find themselves feeling forced to make compromises.

    • 185 posts
    October 18, 2018 1:25 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I knew  Troll SK. we met up accidentally- he wanted to get into erudin and found there was no evil side from the docks, so he FD'd his way out and I found him in Toxx. I helped him sell and he was impressed with how much I got form the emrchants, he thought I was giving him plat but I wasn't. We adventured and did hard things as a duo mage and SK in the warrens and lived. After every fight we bound wounds- and it helped my self-worth because I could summon bandages. Anyways he wanted to be a troll SK because of the racial hinderences, he wanted to play a hard game. Me, being a mage also had a exp hinderence because I was a hybrid (but I didit know what that meant at the time). When we explored as much as we could in stonebrunt, I took the trip to qeynos and Karana's to see if I could find a wizard to port back and port us both out to....someplace I had never been before but Ruzuk knew about. He was known in Neriak and commons areas and I didnt know what those were but I heard of the tunnel.  We met a Druid (Jeyna), and then a ranger,who changed to a chanter(Mendath) and a cleric (Cylindrias) and we grouped as 5 for ever. Loklan maybe tried to break us up but whatever.

    and today, there is a kick-butt Troll SK who- if he's in the group, you know you will win the encounter. and hes nice and he starts PuG's for anyone if they need to catch up in progression, or hard missions.

     

    So I think racial passives and perks are good and should be left in. If the dreaded word "balance" were to be used I think it should be used in racvial passives and perks. Maybe not so much for exp penalty, although if the initial reasoning was sound then leave it in, but things like weakness to fire balanced with a boost to regen, that makes sense. Likewise something like, if humans can be any class, then they are weaker in overall stats- or whatever the game-master has decided. 

     

    Great story. Thanks for bringing back memories. Thats in a nut-shell exactly what i miss about EQ way back when

    • 107 posts
    October 18, 2018 2:13 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Stat boost differences are good. They tend to be the easiest to overcome with gear in a game with soft/hard caps (as Pantheon will), and since we know most abilities will scale from a handful of different stats it won't always be the high STR/STA warrior that wins out.

     

    This is the exact reason I think stats boosts are terrible. They either have no effect whatsoever as you gear up like you suggest or they are so good that anyone who wants anything will have to be a certain race or be behind. Keep stats the same for the different races. There are better ways that will actually define a race to do racials that are not so stupid as stat differences.


    This post was edited by zendrel at October 18, 2018 2:14 PM PDT
    • 696 posts
    October 18, 2018 3:07 PM PDT

    @zendrel

    Different stat distributions early in levels is a good thing. Also in terms of gear it makes you go after different peices of gear to optimize your stats.

    So if you took a  wood elf warrior..they had lower str and sta than an ogre starting out...however..there other stats were higher...mainly there dex. This allowed wood elfs, and any other race that wasn't ogre, to be very effective tanks early on with weapon procs causing them to hold aggro much easier. Later on it shouldn't make a difference..but that is because you will have to go for gear that is will be different from all other races of the same class to maximize all your stats.

    They also stated that all stats will play some role in your character in combat...given the example of the druid tendril aoe that with more wisdom, inteligence and constitution that they can produce more.

    So I wouldn't write off the idea just yet.

    • 198 posts
    October 18, 2018 3:40 PM PDT
    No stat or attribute increases, just environmental perks, like natural resist, acclimation, movement speed, night vision, etc. Dont want race to be a factor in min max play.
    • 1860 posts
    October 18, 2018 3:49 PM PDT

    Just so no one is worried, there have been comments made that there won't be exp differences based on race and also that there won't be hell lvls like in EQ.

    I do like some pretty significant starting stat differences based on race.  They seem to differentiate characters early on but as the player progresses, and better gear is acquired, those stat differences become pretty meaningless.  That seems like a good way to give players options on creation but not effect balance long term. 

    It is the racial abilities whose significance don't diminish over the long term like stats do that can be a issue.  Things like frontal stun immunity or regen can make one race superior to another races ability over the long term but the heart of the issue is itemization and not the ability itself.

    Hypothetically lets compare a racial regen ability to a racial underwater breathing ability.  It is all about itemization.  If everyone has access to a clicky or a spell that allows them to breathe underwater then that racial ability is effectively useless.  On the flip side, if everyone has a clicky, non-stackable, regen and there were no underwater breathing items in game that "enduring breath" ability is far more useful than the innate regen.

    Any racial traits can be balanced later simply by making items with a similar effect readily available.


    This post was edited by philo at October 18, 2018 3:50 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    October 18, 2018 4:04 PM PDT

    philo said:

    Just so no one is worried, there have been comments made that there won't be exp differences based on race and also that there won't be hell lvls like in EQ.

    I do like some pretty significant starting stat differences based on race.  They seem to differentiate characters early on but as the player progresses, and better gear is acquired, those stat differences become pretty meaningless.  That seems like a good way to give players options on creation but not effect balance long term. 

    It is the racial abilities whose significance don't diminish over the long term like stats do that can be a issue.  Things like frontal stun immunity or regen can make one race superior to another races ability over the long term but the heart of the issue is itemization and not the ability itself.

    Hypothetically lets compare a racial regen ability to a racial underwater breathing ability.  It is all about itemization.  If everyone has access to a clicky or a spell that allows them to breathe underwater then that racial ability is effectively useless.  On the flip side, if everyone has a clicky, non-stackable, regen and there were no underwater breathing items in game that "enduring breath" ability is far more useful than the innate regen.

    Any racial traits can be balanced later simply by making items with a similar effect readily available.

     

    I'm not totally agreeing here, I would like stats to matter more than they currently do, and for that I would like a % bonus to a statistic, 2 to 5% at most, but to shape the differencies even on the long run. You would never hit as strong as an ogre with the same gear beeing an ogre warrior, but you would shape differences on other statistics that would lessen the burden and since spells are "multi-stat scaling" the difference would not matter for more than 2 to 3%, which is balanced to me. Of course it's opening the delta between the most efficient role with the most efficient race, and it's opposite, but hell. It's still a RPG god dammit.

    • 2752 posts
    October 18, 2018 4:13 PM PDT

    zendrel said:

    This is the exact reason I think stats boosts are terrible. They either have no effect whatsoever as you gear up like you suggest or they are so good that anyone who wants anything will have to be a certain race or be behind. Keep stats the same for the different races. There are better ways that will actually define a race to do racials that are not so stupid as stat differences.

    They do have an effect though, and I'd say a rather positive one: it further differentiates (or can) different players of a class based on race. An ogre warrior may find it notably easier to cap out their STR/STA, so the armors and items they will be seeking at higher levels would likely be different than a halfling warrior. The ogre might have half or more of their gear focused on DEX/AGI or INT/whatever while the halfling finds they have plenty of DEX/AGI and thus they heavily invest in STR/STA gear.

     

    In the end the stats of the ogre and the halfing warriors would be more or less equal but their path to getting there and their gear choices would be noticeably different, such that not all warriors would look the same at higher/max level. 

    • 646 posts
    October 18, 2018 4:17 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:I'm not totally agreeing here, I would like stats to matter more than they currently do, and for that I would like a % bonus to a statistic, 2 to 5% at most, but to shape the differencies even on the long run. You would never hit as strong as an ogre with the same gear beeing an ogre warrior, but you would shape differences on other statistics that would lessen the burden and since spells are "multi-stat scaling" the difference would not matter for more than 2 to 3%, which is balanced to me. Of course it's opening the delta between the most efficient role with the most efficient race, and it's opposite, but hell. It's still a RPG god dammit.

    This kind of thing always feels super discouraging to me in games with significant racials - when you know that no matter how hard you try, you're not going to be the best you can be unless you choose a very specific combination of race and class. As someone who hates being pigeonholed into race/class combos, it's a bad feeling.

    • 89 posts
    October 18, 2018 5:49 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    zendrel said:

    This is the exact reason I think stats boosts are terrible. They either have no effect whatsoever as you gear up like you suggest or they are so good that anyone who wants anything will have to be a certain race or be behind. Keep stats the same for the different races. There are better ways that will actually define a race to do racials that are not so stupid as stat differences.

    They do have an effect though, and I'd say a rather positive one: it further differentiates (or can) different players of a class based on race. An ogre warrior may find it notably easier to cap out their STR/STA, so the armors and items they will be seeking at higher levels would likely be different than a halfling warrior. The ogre might have half or more of their gear focused on DEX/AGI or INT/whatever while the halfling finds they have plenty of DEX/AGI and thus they heavily invest in STR/STA gear.

     

    In the end the stats of the ogre and the halfing warriors would be more or less equal but their path to getting there and their gear choices would be noticeably different, such that not all warriors would look the same at higher/max level. 

     

    This assumes that there are actually stat caps.  If there aren't (as is usually the case in MMOs) then it just means race a will always be ahead of race b...

    • 2752 posts
    October 18, 2018 5:57 PM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    This assumes that there are actually stat caps.  If there aren't (as is usually the case in MMOs) then it just means race a will always be ahead of race b...

    Currently the plan is stat caps.

    Joppa said:

    Regarding the actual stat amount, I can say this: the current plan is for a soft cap of 50/hard cap of 60, including worn items and buffs, in a given stat at level 50. And this will not be easy to attain. You will have to make the decision and a concious effort to focus any of the attributes to raise them that high.

    - Chris ' Joppa' Perkins

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1558/stats-on-gear/view/post_id/172803

    • 1860 posts
    October 18, 2018 6:02 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    philo said:

    Just so no one is worried, there have been comments made that there won't be exp differences based on race and also that there won't be hell lvls like in EQ.

    I do like some pretty significant starting stat differences based on race.  They seem to differentiate characters early on but as the player progresses, and better gear is acquired, those stat differences become pretty meaningless.  That seems like a good way to give players options on creation but not effect balance long term. 

    It is the racial abilities whose significance don't diminish over the long term like stats do that can be a issue.  Things like frontal stun immunity or regen can make one race superior to another races ability over the long term but the heart of the issue is itemization and not the ability itself.

    Hypothetically lets compare a racial regen ability to a racial underwater breathing ability.  It is all about itemization.  If everyone has access to a clicky or a spell that allows them to breathe underwater then that racial ability is effectively useless.  On the flip side, if everyone has a clicky, non-stackable, regen and there were no underwater breathing items in game that "enduring breath" ability is far more useful than the innate regen.

    Any racial traits can be balanced later simply by making items with a similar effect readily available.

    I would like stats to matter more than they currently do, and for that I would like a % bonus to a statistic, 2 to 5% at most, but to shape the differencies even on the long run. You would never hit as strong as an ogre with the same gear beeing an ogre warrior, but you would shape differences on other statistics that would lessen the burden and since spells are "multi-stat scaling" the difference would not matter for more than 2 to 3%, which is balanced to me. Of course it's opening the delta between the most efficient role with the most efficient race, and it's opposite, but hell. It's still a RPG god dammit.

    Naw Mauv, the point wasn't about balancing with other stats.  Those stats become irrevelent as characters progress (which is good for balance over the long run by making no race significantly better)  We aren't talking about percent stat gains that scale with the character.  That would compound the issue and imbalance more and more as a character progresses.

    That +5 strength bonus the Ogre might get at lvl one makes a huge difference when their strenth is 15 or 20 total.  When their strength is 200, and a different races strength is 195, the starting stat gain is meaningless as far as damage output.  Let's just assume we don't have soft or hard caps...which would make the starting stat gains even more meaningless. (edit: iksar posted about stat caps above...which I'm not a fan of but...I guess they are a thing.  I hadn't remembered that.)

    And yes, of course a different race will have +5 in a different stat than the ogre if you want to think about it like that, but again, it is so negligible later in the game to be fairly meaningless.  The usefulness diminishes as a characters stats/power increase.

     


    This post was edited by philo at October 18, 2018 7:03 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:52 PM PDT

    Thanks Philo,

     

    The point is simply to me that 2% doesn't matter. You get a lag, you stand out of an AOE, you turned the wrong way a micro second. There are so many ways to loose a few % of your damage with a minimal error or some RNG that this bonus is, to me, irrelevant. The point was to keep racial bonuses relevant even at high level, but not in a decreasing way for each stat inflation that would exists.

     

    That's the problem in most current MMO's, while at lower levels you have 10 or 20% more of some statistic, at high level it turn out to be 0.001 or even less of a difference and it becomes bland and broken. A scaling bonus would solve the question, but I wanted it to be existing BUT not game breaking. Especially if all stats are well balanced and let's say, dexterity and agility aren't complete trash.

     

    That was one of the point I  wanted to highlight, especially in EQ, base stats mattered a LOT for a good portion of the game because :

    - Stat cap was not reached

    - Stats weren't nearly as effective as others (Agility ? Worthless past the armor malus under 75 agi. Once reached with the basic starting points, you could just forget it. I'm not even talking of other stats, even if Dex was good for procs you wouldn't really benefit of it untill high levels, wis/int/cha were trash for pure melee and extremely weak for hybrids).

    - Some races had well rounded stats for some classes (RPG logic) but tied with strong racials unmatched by others.

     

    And that was too much of a difference, making non tall races unfavored for every tank class, making barbarians and dwarves the best rogues (high STR), etc etc...

     

    The idea is : I want races to matter, not only in stat choices, but in flavour of classe's gameplay. If I play a nimble warrior I want him to dodge enough to matter against the lost stamina, and crit more due to beeing dexterous against strength loss. Of course min maxers will prefer a high HP pool with non RNG effects and high base damage withouth factoring critical hit chance, but min maxing has allways been a thing and is not, to me, a barrier unless the difference is high enough to be impossible to fill with skill and RNG.

    I know it's probably extremely hard, but as I said, I think Pantheon took a right corner with abilities scaling off multiple stats. That means strength is still the best stat for most  melee abilities, but you don't deal twice as much damage with your attack by doubling your strength. You get damage out of dexterity, agility, sometimes max HP and such, and thoses are enough to make the racial differences softened and most buff in the game desirable to some extent.