Forums » The Druid

Preservers Wildfire concern

    • 32 posts
    October 12, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    From the Abilities:
    "Preserver's Wildfire

    You animate three tendrils of Verdanfire that lash around you wildly, damaging any enemy and healing any ally they touch. These tendrils grow longer and reach farther every second for the duration of the ability. You will be able to animate more than three tendrils based on your Wisdom, Intelligence and Constitution."

     

    The ability itself sounds pretty cool but I'm worried about usefulness.  If the tendrils can break an Enchanters or any other mez/break on damage spell, will this just become a "don't use just to be safe" spell?

     

    Since it seems like we don't have control over who they hit hopefully they put a check in on if the mob is mezzed or under a breaks on damage spell and then doesn't allow it to hit.


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at October 12, 2018 11:07 AM PDT
    • 718 posts
    October 12, 2018 11:19 AM PDT

    Well that depends if you have an enchanter to begin with, which I am hoping you don't need to rely on one specific class for a certain roll. 

    This seems like an ability that you would need to use when everything is going wrong, and or your cc is dead but your group feels like they can still win.

    I would assume this ability will also be fairly good in raid fights with melee groups as it does say ally and not group member. So you can prolly cast this once an aoe goes off  on top of the melee and have the tenderils hit the boss and healing everyone in that area.

    Just some baseless assumptions, but I personally will have to test it before I make a claim that it is too risky or not risky.

     

    I will give an example in EQ1 of a certain way my guild pulled in fear. We would pull 15-20 mobs and group them together. We would then have several enchanters chaining aoe mez while simultanouesly having any class with aoe casting there aoe spells. This Preservers's wildifre looks like it can act like an aoe dmg spell, with enough stats into w/e makes you get more tendrils all the while healing your group/raid. 

    I think it is quite powerful in certain situations by the description.

    • 32 posts
    October 12, 2018 1:53 PM PDT

    I pretty much agree with what you're saying but it isn't just enchanters, the Ranger ability Hidden Snare breaks on damage, the Rogue ability Smoke and Mirrors does as well.

     

    My fear is having to fear using an ability and pissing your group off by breaking a CC but I also can see the power behind it if the group were not CCing at all and just going AoE crazy like you describe as well.

     

    I'm also thinking about it with Verdafine Tree because I'm sure it is going to be a defining characteristic for druids and the tree seems like it will be best served keeping the group as close to it as possible, meaning the mobs will tend to be close, which is why I'm worried about the breaking CC aspect of it.

     

    Would be cool to have everyone in the trees circle, using Wildfire and doing damage and healing at the same time, up until it breaks CC LOL

    • 2356 posts
    October 12, 2018 4:01 PM PDT

    I don't think it needs to ignore CC'd targets, it should just be a situational spell. Not useless but not always a good idea. 

    • 281 posts
    October 14, 2018 1:42 PM PDT

    Good point TheBus, I hadn't really considered that. Preserver's Wildfire is one of our healing abilities, I would hope that it does exclude mobs under the effects of crowd control, otherwise it will create more problems than it helps, as you said. From what I see, the Druid really only has 4 abilities that actually heal, with a couple others that block damage or boost heal amount.  I ignore Reverberation because it is completely worthless if you are the only healer in group.  If the vines were so situational, and I would say in a dungeon they would be 90% useless, why even give them to us?  Hope the Devs read your post! :)

    • 1561 posts
    October 14, 2018 2:12 PM PDT

    Rominian said:

    Good point TheBus, I hadn't really considered that. Preserver's Wildfire is one of our healing abilities, I would hope that it does exclude mobs under the effects of crowd control, otherwise it will create more problems than it helps, as you said. From what I see, the Druid really only has 4 abilities that actually heal, with a couple others that block damage or boost heal amount.  I ignore Reverberation because it is completely worthless if you are the only healer in group.  If the vines were so situational, and I would say in a dungeon they would be 90% useless, why even give them to us?  Hope the Devs read your post! :)

     

    That's only a "glimpse" to the classe's gameplay, be sure that they will have more abilities than what is put on the preview. I understand your concern, and I do not know how this will play out but maybe this tendrils can be aimed/anticipated to avoid Mezzed mobs throught carefull placing.

    • 372 posts
    October 14, 2018 5:46 PM PDT

    Situational abilities are absolutely essential to a game of this sort. The alternative is having 15 different heals that all say "heal for X at mana cost Y". If an ability is counterproductive 90% of the time, but great 10% of the time, then I would say the devs have done a spectacular job of crafting that ability. The LAS concept is built around predicting the situation you will be in and choosing your abilities to suit that situation. If you can fill your hotbar with general use abilities and do fine in every scenario, then the LAS has lost its purpose and meaning in my eyes.

    I'm sure TheBus88 is right that the primary downside of this aoe ability is that it can break mez, but every aoe damage ability will have the same downside (to a lesser degree if they are a one time effect). There should certainly be times when aoe abilities are useful or perhaps necessary. It is in those cases that your druids will be whipping those tendrils like there's no tomorrow.

    • 32 posts
    October 15, 2018 8:00 AM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    Situational abilities are absolutely essential to a game of this sort. The alternative is having 15 different heals that all say "heal for X at mana cost Y". If an ability is counterproductive 90% of the time, but great 10% of the time, then I would say the devs have done a spectacular job of crafting that ability. The LAS concept is built around predicting the situation you will be in and choosing your abilities to suit that situation. If you can fill your hotbar with general use abilities and do fine in every scenario, then the LAS has lost its purpose and meaning in my eyes.

    I'm sure TheBus88 is right that the primary downside of this aoe ability is that it can break mez, but every aoe damage ability will have the same downside (to a lesser degree if they are a one time effect). There should certainly be times when aoe abilities are useful or perhaps necessary. It is in those cases that your druids will be whipping those tendrils like there's no tomorrow.

     

    I agree about situationaly abilities, I just disagree that this is really one.  It is really a "use at your own risk", which for a healer could be bad LOL, especially since it seems to have no control on where they go.  Last thing your healer should be doing is damage anyway, especially if it risks breaking mez and meaning more healing.  And I highly doubt the damage of these will be worth the risk anyway.

     

    I was actually thinking about what a situational ability really is and to use your fire spam, I think it is more like when a mob casts a fire shield you cast water or an interrupt ability that needs to be timed correctly, or for Druids our Weave the Wind, Vinewoven Grove and Hirodes Rescue abilities.

     

    And again as others have said, when it comes down to it in dungeons or raids where spaces are tight or one slight mess up or broke mez can mean the difference in a wipe or win I just know this ability won't even BE on my hotbar because of the potential negative reprecussions.

     

    Perhaps two forms-one that damages and one that heals is a possible solution 0.o

    • 2356 posts
    October 15, 2018 10:22 AM PDT

    Not hard to not use AoE abilities when there are mez'd targets near. May as well take out all AoE abilities if they all need special exceptions just in case there are any mez'd mobs near. 

    • 372 posts
    October 15, 2018 11:31 AM PDT

    Take a step into the shoes of a developer and consider where you might go with the ability.

    If you gave this ability really high aoe damage output - what would happen? Even aoe based groups have a healer, so would this ability make Druids good in that role given that they could contribute to the damage while performing their primary role? Would it step on the toes of aoe damage classes?

    If you gave this ability really high aoe healing - what would happen? If getting lots of aoe healing comes at the cost of aoe damage risk, could it be worth the risk? If there's a boss fight with aoe damage, no adds, or with unmezzable adds, then you would be free to use this ability.

    Without numbers we can never say if this ability is strong, weak, or balanced, all we can discuss is whether the concept is flawed. If this ability is strong enough that you want to use it in AOE groups, does that make it a fun ability? If this ability is strong enough that you want to use it on add-less boss mobs for AOE healing and a splash of damage, does that make it a fun ability?

    I'm not arguing against what you've said since any ability of this type is bad in the situations you pointed out. I'm going to assume you're not arguing that all the Druid's abilities should be valid in raids/dungeons, so all that matters is how good an ability is in the situations where you should use it (and that those situations are common enough that the ability isn't forgotten).


    This post was edited by Ainadak at October 15, 2018 11:34 AM PDT
    • 32 posts
    October 15, 2018 11:37 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Not hard to not use AoE abilities when there are mez'd targets near. May as well take out all AoE abilities if they all need special exceptions just in case there are any mez'd mobs near. 

     

    I agree, but not using AoE abilities when mez'd targets are near is my concern with this. If it is part of our main healing lineup to me it will be an ability that rarely gets used if Pantheon is going to be as CC heavy as EQ was.  I just don't see Pantheon being a "gather a bunch of mobs and spam AoE them to death" kind of game.

     

    Targeted AoE abilities, or conical or front sweeping or even abilities with a defined X radiusare all easier to control.  But "lashes around wildly" and "grow longer and reach farther every second" is going to be a bit harder to control.  It is also worth pointing out that an ability like this really only has it use WHEN there are lots of mobs around and damage being done to everyone in the group, which then makes it counter productive if people are trying to CC.

     

    As I stated above, I imagine other classes using AoE abilities are going to be doing decent damage or generating decent hate by using them but it doesn't make sense that these tendrils would do decent damage because we're not a DPS class, so the risk vs reward of getting some healing and DPS done at the same time just doesn't seem to be there.

     

    Maybe this is all just having played a necro in EQ and having to be VERY careful before applying my DoTs so I didn't break mez and make them unmezzable until the DoT wore off.

     

    Having said all that LOL, I can see some solo or small group functionality with this and other spells.  Wildfire+Rockvine Tangle+Verdafine Spear+Gust of Leaves+Verdafire Vines with Hirodes Gaze with the other healing abilities and DPS I can see a tank or monk and me doing some good damage against a caster or other mobs.

     

    I just think it is going to have little to no use in actual grouping and raid situations so I hope they don't count it like it is one of our main healing abilities when balancing the classes, especially since clerics and shamans don't have a healing ability with the risk of breaking a mez.

    • 32 posts
    October 15, 2018 11:57 AM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    Take a step into the shoes of a developer and consider where you might go with the ability.

    If you gave this ability really high aoe damage output - what would happen? Even aoe based groups have a healer, so would this ability make Druids good in that role given that they could contribute to the damage while performing their primary role? Would it step on the toes of aoe damage classes?

    If you gave this ability really high aoe healing - what would happen? If getting lots of aoe healing comes at the cost of aoe damage risk, could it be worth the risk? If there's a boss fight with aoe damage, no adds, or with unmezzable adds, then you would be free to use this ability.

    Without numbers we can never say if this ability is strong, weak, or balanced, all we can discuss is whether the concept is flawed. If this ability is strong enough that you want to use it in AOE groups, does that make it a fun ability? If this ability is strong enough that you want to use it on add-less boss mobs for AOE healing and a splash of damage, does that make it a fun ability?

    I'm not arguing against what you've said since any ability of this type is bad in the situations you pointed out. I'm going to assume you're not arguing that all the Druid's abilities should be valid in raids/dungeons, so all that matters is how good an ability is in the situations where you should use it (and that those situations are common enough that the ability isn't forgotten).

     

    That's the thing, I'm not sure where they are going with this.  Typically AoE is a tank hate generating ability or a ranged DPS style ability.  Tank and melee DPS are up on the front lines, casters and rangers sit back and AoE nuke/Glass Arrow.  For this to be effective for the Druid we're going to have to be somewhat close and in the thick of things with the melee, which just doesn't make sense for the class.

     

    So yeah, maybe the concept is flawed, you don't take the littlest dude in cloth/leather armor and put him near the front lines to do some splash damage while AoE healing 0.o

     

    But I'm totally willing to wait and see how it plays out!  As I said above I do see some powerful smaller group, duo or solo possibilites with it as well.

     

    I also think having it be an or, not an and, may make more sense as well.  Heals or damages, not both.


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at October 15, 2018 1:29 PM PDT
    • 718 posts
    October 15, 2018 2:05 PM PDT

    Yea, I wasn't really thinking about the other random CC's. Regardless, any type of AOE dmg will cause mez to break. However, if you fight one mob at a time it could prove very useful if the mob aoes. Doesn't say the tendrils have to hit unique targets, so I assume the tendrils can hit one mob all at once if casted correctly and each hit will heal the people standing within range.

    Also, if the above is correct you usually want to pull bosses alone, and this ability will work well against them.

     

    Just from reading the text that is.

    • 2356 posts
    October 15, 2018 2:58 PM PDT

    ^ This

     

    It's entirely possible that this would be extra useful for single target, an adaptable spell of sorts. With multiple targets it might flail around more wildly but with a single target the tendrils might all focus in thereby doing higher damage to the one target all while providing the useful AoE healing for the group (especially useful for AoE heavy bosses). 

     

    Also, figure the "environmental" enemies that are in dungeons. So far we have seen the small spiders in Halnir that hit really hard but have very little HP, this kind of spell would be especially useful for those kinds of things. Or bosses that might summon swarms of similar low hp/high damage adds. 

     

    Situational spells are nice. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Iksar at October 15, 2018 3:00 PM PDT
    • 44 posts
    October 15, 2018 10:57 PM PDT

    As I see it, this spell requires a good positioning to become really useful. Druid sets its tree in the main camp, chanter will mez adds out of range of the effects, and the tank will pull mobs into the effects of the druid. This requires a lot of positioning effort, but it can be very effective in my opinion. 

    I do not like too many exceptions from general rules like "all aoe damaging spells break mez, but this one will not do so". 

    • 479 posts
    October 15, 2018 11:56 PM PDT

    Also... don't forget that VR wants decisions to matter. It's quite likely that many of the spells and abilities that all the classes have are situational. So that depending on where you are fighting and what you are fighting you will choose the right setup of abilities. Sometimes this may mean that an AoE heal/dmg ability is not a good choice. Sometimes it will mean an AoE heal/dmg ability is an amazingly good choice.

    TheBus88 said: If it is part of our main healing lineup to me it will be an ability that rarely gets used

    Also, there will be an array of heal spells for the healer classes. And not every heal spell is going to be in a 'main healing lineup'. Yes there might be some heal spells that are going to Always be on your bar. But many of your heal spells might be interchanged depending on what's useful for that area or encounter.