GoofyWarriorGuy said:From the MMORPG Interview (source)
Will race/class restrictions be eased up by launch, or is the current info graphic pretty firm as far as halflings needing more classes etc...?
Joppa said: I will say it's fairly firm, but there is a good chance we may see a little bit of loosening on the way towards launch; I want to be careful because I don't want somebody to get their hopes up and then it not happen, but there is a good chance.
So Paladins getting more races is possible, but don't get your hopes up!
I'd be willing to bet that there will be a new race added for Paladin by the second expansion at the latest if it isn't unlocked through the Progeny system. At which point those of us that hate playing Dwarves and Humans in a game that has such cool and unique races may finally get to enjoy the Paladin... as a twink ;)
Riqq said:I wish games would refrain from forums and feedback options -_-, maybe its for a greater good >.>, one think i cant stand is someone giving a reason for doing something is simply "Because "I" want it"
I'm in this camp. So many topics like this fall into the "feature creep" pile. I'd rather have the devs FINISH the game and polish it so we can play it instead of adding more crap to it. If you're saying add it later in a patch then fine.
Bronsun said:I'm in this camp. So many topic like this fall into the feature creep pile. I'd rather have the devs FINSH the game and polish it so we can play it instead of adding more crap to it. If you're saying add it later in a patch then fine.
Race/class options are pretty fundamental. If someone can't play what they want, then they're not likely to play the game at all - or if they do, they won't stick around as long as they may have.
Naunet said:Bronsun said:I'm in this camp. So many topic like this fall into the feature creep pile. I'd rather have the devs FINSH the game and polish it so we can play it instead of adding more crap to it. If you're saying add it later in a patch then fine.Race/class options are pretty fundamental. If someone can't play what they want, then they're not likely to play the game at all - or if they do, they won't stick around as long as they may have.
And if anyone can play any race with any class, the races really don't have much personality at all.
Bronsun said:Dulu said:Ainadak said:https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5771/elves-can-t-be-paladins
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5347/paladin-race-class-picture
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3579/what-race-will-be-your-crusader
Three topics all on the front page of the Paladin forums.
This isn't about the Paladin class. It's about the design of the game.
I think that was their point. What you and some others want is changing design. Play it, and enjoy it or perhaps find another game. Don't you think its odd that you want to change what these dev's are creating sight unseen?
Paladin whining is a core class ability. You see it everywhere. Since they can't actually play the game to whine about gameplay they had to find something else to whine about...
@Naunet - Well in this case, it can't be to each his own :) The devs must make a choice on one side of the topic or the other. Rather, they have made a choice. And if I were to guess I'd say they did so conciously and deliberately, and that it largely revolves around lore.
The personality of each race might not be a selling point for you. But as you suggest that some might choose not to play the game at all because every class is limited to certain races, I'd suggest that an equal number would choose not to play or play for only a short time because they didnt feel that there was a tangible connection between their character and the game's underlying story.
Feyshtey said:And if anyone can play any race with any class, the races really don't have much personality at all.
I disagree. You could play any race/class combination in FFXI but some races were a naturally better fit for a given role. Tarus were really small and were known for being exceptional magic users ... and when you ended up seeing a Taru tank (rarely) it spoke volumes in regards to the personality of the race. They were a small and dainty race so seeing one walk around in shiny platemail wielding a sword and shield was something that would really stick out. It was pretty much the opposite for the Galkas ... the big hearty race that were known for their size/strength and blue-collar nature. Every now and then you would see a Galka bard or maybe even a mage. It wasn't common because their mana pools were limited but when you saw one, they absolutely stood out. This contrast was pretty amazing and provided plenty of personality to the playable character races ... but more importantly, it gave the players an outlet to make their character their own.
Feyshtey said:@Naunet - Well in this case, it can't be to each his own :) The devs must make a choice on one side of the topic or the other. Rather, they have made a choice. And if I were to guess I'd say they did so conciously and deliberately, and that it largely revolves around lore.
It can be when us as players are discussing preferences for race/class options. None of us are devs. So yes, "to each their own". There is also a quote just above suggesting the devs may loosen race/class restrictions.
I also take issue with your assumption that "personality of each race might not be a selling point". Just because I like having as many options as possible when creating characters does not mean that I don't care about race "personality" or "lore".
Naunet said:Riqq said:Its actually very realistic, and only someone under the age of 25 would make such a ridiculous assumption, Im a machinist because its what i excel at, im not basketball player, im not a drive thru clerk, im not a sales rep, im a machinist because i dont have the desire/skillset to do the other things, and being brought up around mechanical objects its more instilled in my heart to do what i do.Ignoring the ridiculous age comment... But are all humans machinists? No.
MauvaisOeil said:Because the culture of a race, or IRL, a country, leaves a strong print on anyone.Each race should at least have access to the 4 roles. While cultures do things differently, they all have the same basic needs.
You really can't apply real life to this in that way; we have a single civilized race on Earth - Human. Even within our own race (that has been "sharing" the planet for tens/hundreds of thousands of years) we see cultural and ideological differences all throughout history and even today. If you took an average person from a Western society and showed them life of a tribe in Africa or the Middle East it would be extremely rare for them to want to adopt, study, and learn their way of life. That's without even considering religion as we all know the history that has on Earth even among those who believe in the same. The disconnect is that while yes it is entirely possible for a tribal African person to become a machinist or computer programmer - it isn't very likely, and might even be considered culturally inappropriate. The tribes know of the modern world but for the most part have no interest in adopting or obtaining any of it, preferring their own way of life and customs. It breaks down further if you go back a few hundred years to where the average person would at best have second/third hand information about other cultures (or none at all) but also no means to really learn more about them nor the supplies to make a journey or any realistic assurance they would be welcomed instead of enslaved or killed.
Here we are talking of a fantasy world full of magic, mythic creatures, and different civilized races (with rich histories, cultures, totally separate pantheons/deities/creators, ways of life) from entirely different planets that have only been on Terminus (let alone some form of knowledge or contact with one another) for anywhere between around 350 and 980 years total. These aren't socieites that are highly intermingled or even terribly interested in one another, the vast majority of their contact with one another (of those that do interact) is trade but otherwise their culture/race is focused inward and they believe their way is best. It isn't even clear that other races could do certain roles if they tried as there is nothing to suggest that, for example, a Halfling could (or couldn't) be raised in Thronefast and harness the powers of a human celestial, it could be something special within humans endowed by whichever god.
Different cultures do things differently and even if they have the same basic needs they would likely fulfill those in their own different ways. Gnome wouldn't need tank or even melee classes for the most part since their past is almost entirely based around magic/arcane which would mean any times another race would turn to tanks/melee the gnome solve with their magic, be it summoned creatures to tank or raw magic for other things. Also worth considering that for the vast majority of Gnome history they were entirely united and seemingly had no natural predators so most conflicts other races learned and adapted to resulting in warrior classes and brutal melee combat would simply not have come about, and by the time Gnomes DID have a split and internal conflict they were already deep into magic so it was the best tool for the job. Similarly without wars and fighting their need of healing was likely near non-existant or otherwise fully handled by something along the lines of alchemy/potions/tonics/salves etc, especially without any clear god(s) to grant healing powers or guidance. Basically whatever each race has available is what has worked for them in their past and they haven't needed or wanted beyond what they have or it otherwise goes against their way of life.
Naunet said:Bronsun said:I'm in this camp. So many topic like this fall into the feature creep pile. I'd rather have the devs FINSH the game and polish it so we can play it instead of adding more crap to it. If you're saying add it later in a patch then fine.Race/class options are pretty fundamental. If someone can't play what they want, then they're not likely to play the game at all - or if they do, they won't stick around as long as they may have.
I've really never seen anybody shun a game because they couldn't play exactly the abstract concept they had in mind. Good games are rare and their setup is not a fence to turn over, but a mold to adapt to. If a guy is ready to refuse the game because the exact class/race combinaison he wants isn't avaliable event thought it's existence is not possible in Terminus, due to logic, lore and such, well that guy better be ready to spend the next decade mumbling about the death of MMO's alone, playing gimmick games until he realize his error.
The game is here for us to play with it's rules, but not to make them or change them at will. Such setups are increasing our possibilities to play around and with them, where novices might see them as "hard barriers". That's the point of rules in games, rulesets and campaign settings. They are an enrichment, while complete free settings ends up beeing more limitative due to an absence of core, tone and flavour.
Iksar said:Basically whatever each race has available is what has worked for them in their past and they haven't needed or wanted beyond what they have or it otherwise goes against their way of life.
Sounds linear and limiting. It makes sense to me that each race would adapt to the newfound challenges of Terminus. History is history. The world as we know it isn't going to be a prologue in a novel. If the gnomes have a special way of overcoming a specific obstacle then it would make sense that other races take note of that and attempt to expand their horizons in order to be more prosperous. If they aren't capable of adapting to change then maybe they'll go the way of the dodo and become extinct.
oneADseven said:Sounds linear and limiting. It makes sense to me that each race would adapt to the newfound challenges of Terminus. History is history. The world as we know it isn't going to be a prologue in a novel. If the gnomes have a special way of overcoming a specific obstacle then it would make sense that other races take note of that and attempt to expand their horizons in order to be more prosperous. If they aren't capable of adapting to change then maybe they'll go the way of the dodo and become extinct.
There is no impetus for change, what each race has is working for them well enough. Of course there are outliers from different races who ventured off from the norm but for the most part each race seems content with their cultures and doing their own thing in their own lands.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Sounds linear and limiting. It makes sense to me that each race would adapt to the newfound challenges of Terminus. History is history. The world as we know it isn't going to be a prologue in a novel. If the gnomes have a special way of overcoming a specific obstacle then it would make sense that other races take note of that and attempt to expand their horizons in order to be more prosperous. If they aren't capable of adapting to change then maybe they'll go the way of the dodo and become extinct.
There is no impetus for change, what each race has is working for them well enough. Of course there are outliers from different races who ventured off from the norm but for the most part each race seems content with their cultures and doing their own thing in their own lands.
Also to add, modern time evolution, where something is shared instantly with the whole word, doesn't fit a high fantasy setting.
When distance matter, when culture is a wall between people, when kingdoms are cautious of their share and partake with others, evolution, technology and sharing is much slower than it is now.
MauvaisOeil said:Also to add, modern time evolution, where something is shared instantly with the whole word, doesn't fit a high fantasy setting.
When distance matter, when culture is a wall between people, when kingdoms are cautious of their share and partake with others, evolution, technology and sharing is much slower than it is now.
I wonder how fast things will ramp up for us here on Earth when we're capable of teleporting to the other side of the world.
oneADseven said:MauvaisOeil said:Also to add, modern time evolution, where something is shared instantly with the whole word, doesn't fit a high fantasy setting.
When distance matter, when culture is a wall between people, when kingdoms are cautious of their share and partake with others, evolution, technology and sharing is much slower than it is now.
I wonder how fast things will ramp up for us here on Earth when we're capable of teleporting to the other side of the world.
"We're" not capable of.
Some gifted characters, insignifiant in numbers, will be able to teleport across continents at a given time, with great experience and great ressources. Don't make port alt a generality that should offset the whole core of a world, at most how many player are we going to be ? 1000 ? 10.000 ? How many citizen NPC will there be, or logically be ? Millions ?
That's a droplet of water.
oneADseven said:"We're" not capable of.
Some gifted characters, insignifiant in numbers, will be able to teleport across continents at a given time, with great experience and great ressources. Don't make port alt a generality that should offset the whole core of a world, at most how many player are we going to be ? 1000 ? 10.000 ? How many citizen NPC will there be, or logically be ? Millions ?
That's a droplet of water.
If Earth had a dozen people who could instantly teleport across the world the impact would be monumental. 12 out of nearly 7.5 billion is a microscopic speck in comparison.
oneADseven said:oneADseven said:"We're" not capable of.
Some gifted characters, insignifiant in numbers, will be able to teleport across continents at a given time, with great experience and great ressources. Don't make port alt a generality that should offset the whole core of a world, at most how many player are we going to be ? 1000 ? 10.000 ? How many citizen NPC will there be, or logically be ? Millions ?
That's a droplet of water.
If Earth had a dozen people who could instantly teleport across the world the impact would be monumental. 12 out of nearly 7.5 billion is a microscopic speck in comparison.
How could we know ? We have already thousands of people flying across the ocean every single day. I really don't know what argument you're trying to do, but that's going completely out of the High Fantasy theme. This isn't a war to find out who will have the last word on a derivated subject.
Dulu said:This isn't about the Paladin class. It's about the design of the game.
I'm sorry but I stopped reading after this. I don't mean to jab or offend but that's the most ridiculous reply I have ever read. To read your OP and then to see you reply with this, well, not sure how you could have said that and kept a straight face. It had everything to do with the Paladin class.
MauvaisOeil said:How could we know ? We have already thousands of people flying across the ocean every single day. I really don't know what argument you're trying to do, but that's going completely out of the High Fantasy theme. This isn't a war to find out who will have the last word on a derivated subject.
I'm just pointing out logical fallacy. You implied that distance matters and how technology and sharing would be much slower in Terminus than it is here on Earth. If humans could open up teleportation devices that allow others to pass through them (with supplies) it's not even fathomable to think about how advanced of a species we would be. It just so happens that Terminus has humans who are capable of doing that. I'm probably a bit jaded because I have frequently seen immersion and realism cited as reasons to do things (or more importantly not do things) a certain way in Pantheon. We all have to draw a line somewhere and for me ... I don't see how it's practical to hold racial customs and traditions (class restrictions) absolutely sacred when the laws of possibility will be defied on a regular basis.
Ogres can create teleportation portals but can't take up a dagger and alchemy? That feels jarring. Don't get me wrong ... I think it makes plenty of sense to add elements of tradition to the game because it will make the world feel more vibrant. At the same time, I think it's equally important to allow players to go against the grain. Preventing them from doing so because it "goes against their way of life" while simultaneously holding the position that there will be a meaningful faction system where players can kill their own kind and betray every species they have been historically aligned with seems contradicting. I'll chalk this up as a fake/artificial/contrived video game element that needs to be the way it is just because.
On the flip side ... I'll continue to hold out hope that progeny or some other feature/mechanic will allow players to experiment with exotic race/class combinations. The limitations are great (as a video game feature) if it creates a situation where a feature like progeny unlocks a layer of player prestige. That sounds really cool.
oneADseven said:MauvaisOeil said:How could we know ? We have already thousands of people flying across the ocean every single day. I really don't know what argument you're trying to do, but that's going completely out of the High Fantasy theme. This isn't a war to find out who will have the last word on a derivated subject.
I'm just pointing out logical fallacy. You implied that distance matters and how technology and sharing would be much slower in Terminus than it is here on Earth. If humans could open up teleportation devices that allow others to pass through them (with supplies) it's not even fathomable to think about how advanced of a species we would be. It just so happens that Terminus has humans who are capable of doing that. I'm probably a bit jaded because I have frequently seen immersion and realism cited as reasons to do things (or more importantly not do things) a certain way in Pantheon. We all have to draw a line somewhere and for me ... I don't see how it's practical to hold racial customs and traditions (class restrictions) absolutely sacred when the laws of possibility will be defied on a regular basis.
Ogres can create teleportation portals but can't take up a dagger and alchemy? That feels jarring. Don't get me wrong ... I think it makes plenty of sense to add the elements of tradition to the game because it will make the world feel more vibrant. At the same time, I think it's equally important to allow players to go against the grain. Preventing them from doing so because it "goes against their way of life" while simultaneously holding the position that there will be a meaningful faction system where players can kill their own kind and betray every species they have been historically aligned with seems contradicting. I'll chalk this up as a fake/artificial/contrived video game element that needs to be the way it is just because.
On the flip side ... I'll continue to hold out hope that progeny or some other feature/mechanic will allow players to experiment with exotic race/class combinations.
I think you're making an asumption that once someone can teleport, everyone will do. Even in a projection of our own world, it wouldn't be the case at all.
Can ogres make teleportation portals, or can Ogres druids with a very strong attunement to nature open gates throught the world for a short duration ? The difference here, is that you're not giving a truck driver the option to shortcut his travels, but an advanced adventurer class which is already atuned and likeminded to something (IE : nature or the world of terminus) the option of delve deeper in it. I do think you're too much thinking out of the box, as a player controlling a character and making it do whatever he wants despite logic or a specific behaviour. If medieval druids had teleportation unlocked back then once they were really highly immerged in their cult and beliefs, and it depended solely on their line of conduct there, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have opened a taxi driving service for the sole purpose of making money or spreading technology. That's just out of pace.
It's funny you say that because the ability to open up teleportation portals lead to emergent taxi services in the games of yesteryear. Many players even marketed their teleport ability as a taxi service.
oneADseven said:It's funny you say that because the ability to open up teleportation portals lead to emergent taxi services in the games of yesteryear. Many players even marketed their teleport ability as a taxi service.
Because we are players playing outside the box, and not living characters. I already pointed this in my last answer, but player behaviour is not realistic. There is no databases, chat programs, social networks in our characters existence.
Lore is not based on what player will do with the game, but what the game setting is. Player acting is an entire different matter as death and consequences ultimately never matter (as it's a game you're not supposed to loose at all), I really can't explain this much further, simply hoping to translate 2018 behaviours on characters from a high fantasy world and expecting the lore to be changed accordingly is just asking for the game to have no lore at all and be a bland sandbox with avatars stripped of all theme.
I thought it was simply evident, lore is the foundation of every tenet of the game, taint it or strip it of it's essence and it will die over time, even non roleplayers are catched by the essence of a game, and if they really aren't, they will be affected by the consquence of destroying it for the sake of every player's desire : An empty game with no one to play with.
oneADseven said:Preventing them from doing so because it "goes against their way of life" while simultaneously holding the position that there will be a meaningful faction system where players can kill their own kind and betray every species they have been historically aligned with seems contradicting. I'll chalk this up as a fake/artificial/contrived video game element that needs to be the way it is just because.
On the flip side ... I'll continue to hold out hope that progeny or some other feature/mechanic will allow players to experiment with exotic race/class combinations. The limitations are great (as a video game feature) if it creates a situation where a feature like progeny unlocks a layer of player prestige. That sounds really cool.
For a first character (especially), I think it makes complete sense that you cannot start out as, for example, an ogre wizard. There are no wizard guilds or other resources for that kind of thing within Broken Maw, where each ogre player character starts their journey after having been raised within the confines of the area.
After that? Sure I could see progeny allowing more exotic (but perhaps not 100% open "all/all") options provided the parent character has undertaken specific steps like maxing specific racial factions, likely including whichever guild/order/group trains members of a desired class and maybe an epic quest as well. After which you could make a second character that is an ogre wizard that starts in whichever city the parent did all that work in.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Preventing them from doing so because it "goes against their way of life" while simultaneously holding the position that there will be a meaningful faction system where players can kill their own kind and betray every species they have been historically aligned with seems contradicting. I'll chalk this up as a fake/artificial/contrived video game element that needs to be the way it is just because.
On the flip side ... I'll continue to hold out hope that progeny or some other feature/mechanic will allow players to experiment with exotic race/class combinations. The limitations are great (as a video game feature) if it creates a situation where a feature like progeny unlocks a layer of player prestige. That sounds really cool.
For a first character (especially), I think it makes complete sense that you cannot start out as, for example, an ogre wizard. There are no wizard guilds or other resources for that kind of thing within Broken Maw, where each ogre player character starts their journey after having been raised within the confines of the area.
After that? Sure I could see progeny allowing more exotic (but perhaps not 100% open "all/all") options provided the parent character has undertaken specific steps like maxing specific racial factions, likely including whichever guild/order/group trains members of a desired class and maybe an epic quest as well.
You need to Wed an ogre to unlock them as a progeny exotic race. It can be great, or really bad, depending of your gender.