Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

While reworking Skar, can we look at Paladins?

    • 612 posts
    September 19, 2018 10:18 PM PDT

    From the MMORPG Interview (source)

    Will race/class restrictions be eased up by launch, or is the current info graphic pretty firm as far as halflings needing more classes etc...?

    Joppa said: I will say it's fairly firm, but there is a good chance we may see a little bit of loosening on the way towards launch; I want to be careful because I don't want somebody to get their hopes up and then it not happen, but there is a good chance.

    So Paladins getting more races is possible, but don't get your hopes up!

    • 178 posts
    September 19, 2018 10:36 PM PDT

    IMHO , not only that the paladin is fine and there is absolutely no reason to give it to more races, but I think that the class/race matrix is way too lenient.

    I think that humans should not be dire lords, druids and shamans. while they are versatile, thay lack the affinity to nature to be druids and shamans and dont have the dedication to evil to be dire lords.

    dark myr should not be monks, they dont have the discipline and cerenity as a race to meditate for a lifetime.

    and finally gnomes can't be necromancers, its way too morbid for a race that celebrate knowledge life and illusion. 

     

    Terminus is a world with its own lore not an 'open buffet' of put all you can in your plate.

    • 1479 posts
    September 20, 2018 12:40 AM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Darch said:

    This is my point.  If a player "wants" to be a Skar Wizard, they could do so knowing that they will likely be less than optimal, but at least they'll have the choice.  Players are being "forced" to be certain races and classes the way it is now.

    edit:  maybe 100/255 was harsh, but it was just an example.  Maybe something like a cap of 200/255 (for that class's primary stat)

    I'm completely against all/all... but I honestly think this would be a great idea in general.  Not even for classes that "dont fit".   In EQ, your starting stats mattered for all of 2 expansions.  I would love to see various races not only have different starting stats. But also different stat caps for themselves.  Ogres should not be able to have 255 charisma, or 255 intelligence.  But maybe they CAN have 200 wisdom.

    This would make race selection actually matter more than silly racials that won't matter.

     

    A good solution for this would also be to have a scaling base stats, meaning the more level you get (and the more gear bonuses you can get), the more your base stats would increase to represent a consistant amount.

     

    If the game isn't poorly balanced, stat cap shouldn't be a problem (I mean, no perma avatar or such with reasonnable amount of stats on gear).

     

    Edit: Could also implement a % bonus on specific stats, that would include gear bonuses and/or buffs. That way ogres would allways remain a bit ahead on STR and STA but not too much.


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at September 20, 2018 12:41 AM PDT
    • 432 posts
    September 20, 2018 2:45 AM PDT

    Brad said in an interview "But if I'm playing a really good MMO, just like watching a really good movie, you're there. You forget that you're sitting there, because it brings you in. That's what MMOs do that a lot of games can't do, and that's personally all I want to do. I want to make worlds, not games."

    This thread and many others mirror this differnce that Brad is making between games and worlds which defines what he wants to do .

    So here we have those who just want a game . I want Skar paladins and Ogre Wizards . There is no reason not to have all/all because I like all/all . Make away with class/race constraints . I want warriors to heal and clerics to tank . I want evil saints and good murdrerers . If you want to bother with things I don't care for like some lore then just slap in a few lines of text and justify Ogre Wizards or whatever design feature I want . 

    Then here we have those who want a world that makes them feel "like they are in" . But then of course the lore (history, culture, languages, geography, races , classes etc) is the most important element and internal consistency is the most important feature . Human brain is excellent at spotting inconsistencies (that's how we distinguish a dream from reality) and the more inconsistencies there are the less believable the world is . Slapping in  some text to "explain" inconsistencies and pretending that it is "lore" has never done a good book , a good movie or a believable world . If the Gnomes are incorporeal beings focused on magics then a Warrior relying on a body, strength and physical prowess cannot be Gnome . And if one said "Ah but a Gnome can create a body and physical strength with magics , let's just put it in the lore" ,  it makes things even worse . Why would an incorporeal being spend time and energy to become corporeal when it can do everything faster and better in its incorporeal form ? Why create Gnomes incorporeal first place ? Just make them corporeal like in EQ , then you can have (not so good) Gnome Warriors  and the problem is solved . But then you get another world than the one created for Pantheon .

    Now Brad made clear that what he wants to do is the latter and not the former . Would some people complain ? Sure, there are some in this thread . Would they play rather another game which suits better their idea of a game ? Sure but then VR has never been hiding that the concept of Pantheon was to aim for a specific well defined segment of players and that the fact that some other players do not like the concept would not make them change the design . So basically I don't think that there will ever be inconsistent combinations like an "evil" paladin or an Ogre wizard coupled with a sloppy lore where everything goes .

    • 151 posts
    September 20, 2018 5:03 AM PDT

    I do like having certain race/class restrictions.  However, it does seem weird to think you can have a Dwarf Enchanter but not an Elf Paladin (just as an example).

    • 1479 posts
    September 20, 2018 5:27 AM PDT

    Searril said:

    I do like having certain race/class restrictions.  However, it does seem weird to think you can have a Dwarf Enchanter but not an Elf Paladin (just as an example).

     

    Elves seems more in the Lotro / Wood elves style, with some possibly high culture but a strong bond with nature that might not fit with the holy knight archetype. Just saying.

    • 228 posts
    September 20, 2018 7:00 AM PDT

    I have no strong feelings about class/race combos and will work with what I get, but I cannot wait to see how VR plan to teach new players who just rolled a gnome that grouping is essential in Pantheon. I mean, no tanks and no healers anywhere near "Gnome City"! :-)

    • 2752 posts
    September 20, 2018 10:28 AM PDT

    Jabir said:

    I have no strong feelings about class/race combos and will work with what I get, but I cannot wait to see how VR plan to teach new players who just rolled a gnome that grouping is essential in Pantheon. I mean, no tanks and no healers anywhere near "Gnome City"! :-)

    Pretty sure the Gnome are fairly close to the Archai city. 

    • 74 posts
    September 20, 2018 4:49 PM PDT

    A few points I'd like to make.

    #1 - Everyone seems to be focused on the extremes. Skar Clerics, Ogre Wizards, etc. While I personally am for it, let's take a moment and focus on the less extreme class combinations... Elf and Halfling Paladins for example.

     

    #2 - Halflings have very few race selections, and their lore seems to be tailor-made for Paladins. Surrounded on all sides by Undead horrors? Come on...

     

    #3 - Elf lore also has a pretty good opening for Paladins. A civil conflict among their population between the wild roots (pun intended) of Elf-Kind, and a newer, more civilized Elf culture, which could be spear-headed by the clergy. This opens a really fascinating fantasy lore angle I'm not sure we've ever seen... An Elf political drama, the new ways vs the old ways. Perhaps some great quests could be woven in, with players of all classes deciding where to pledge their allegience, the halls of Druidism, or the Temples of the Clerics/Paladins.

     

    #4 - On "Evil Paladins", once and for all - they exist. It's up to one's moral compass, and their god's morality.

     

    I mean, for crying out loud, the Nazi Army wore belt buckles that said "God's With Us".

     

    "No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service."

     

    -Christopher Columbus

     

    You can do absolutely horrible things, and think you are pious and righteous for doing so.

     


    This post was edited by Dulu at September 20, 2018 5:01 PM PDT
    • 185 posts
    September 21, 2018 12:32 AM PDT

    From this months news letter

    "The Nine God, which the Skar call D’shath, played a big part in understanding this new race and the nature of their existence. Why did the Archai go through a similar experience and emerge full of life, yet the Skar came away even further enslaved by their own desires?"

     

    If the Archai are a truely good race, deviated from the Skar who are a truely bad race, would it not make sense to have Skar Dire Lords and Archai Paladins as similarily deviated archtypes?

    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2018 1:46 AM PDT

    #2 - Halflings have very few race selections, and their lore seems to be tailor-made for Paladins. Surrounded on all sides by Undead horrors? Come on...

     

    They do have a Wilderling tone that makes them really away from any heavily structured caste like clerics or paladins, to me it's not really fitting. It was in EQ's scheme because halflings were more like hobbits, with a structured society derivates from humans, but here... ? Nope.

     

    #3 - Elf lore also has a pretty good opening for Paladins. A civil conflict among their population between the wild roots (pun intended) of Elf-Kind, and a newer, more civilized Elf culture, which could be spear-headed by the clergy. This opens a really fascinating fantasy lore angle I'm not sure we've ever seen... An Elf political drama, the new ways vs the old ways. Perhaps some great quests could be woven in, with players of all classes deciding where to pledge their allegience, the halls of Druidism, or the Temples of the Clerics/Paladins.

     

    I'm less against this one, for the sole reason halflings already represent the "Wild counterparts", the wood elves in general with an even more wild nature. Elves should be more distinct from Halflings in culture and beliefs, and to me making them closer to the high elves of EQ would be a better choice. Thus opening the cleric and paladins to them. How I see them, the ashen and ember elves are both the high and wood elves in a split culture, yet still intricated bound by a city and years of history. For this, the race itself should allow a wide spectrum of classes with only evil classes forbidden.

     

    #4 - On "Evil Paladins", once and for all - they exist. It's up to one's moral compass, and their god's morality.

     

    Can't argue for this one but only against. Evil paladins can exist in specific settings. In Wow as an example, the light answers to conviction and not alignment. In D&D, your god will strip you of all your powers if you deviate from the LG or LN alignement (heaum specific for the LN if I remember right). Subsequent additions opened the road to different paladins (Gestahlt characters) with Paladin of Freedom (Chaotic good), Paladin of Tyranny (Lawfull Evil) and paladin of chaos (Chaotic Evil) but they ended marginally used. Especially because the blackguard was designed to be an evil paladin counterpart at first, throught a change in career. In nature, D&D setup didn't recognize "Evil born characters", in the sense you could only switch to blackguard with a previous base class, wether it was a standart adventurer's class (warrior, rogue) or a more pure starter (Paladin, with a fall inbetween).

    In the end, the existence of evil paladins is completely depending of the setting, and the Direlord does more seems like a blackguard (a non mirrored counterpart. remember the blackguard in d&d had no harm touch and different advantages including a sneak attack), than an evil paladin who's powers are mirrored from the paladin with detrimental effects (Aura of despair, harm touch, etc...).

    They "can" exist if the setting allow it. Either because light can be used withouth a good alignment, or because they are specific champion of evil gods. But nothing in pantheon suggest it MUST be the case. We only had glimpses into divine magic and we don't know if the ancien scrolls priests (and probably paladins) are using are tied to the alignment or not. If divine magic must be harnessed from old scrolls infused with divine magic BUT require the character to be aligned with the deities beliefs, then evils paladins cannot exist.

    From what we know with the class/race matrix, it would suggest magic works this way, and not in a way you can pervert or use withouth beeing aligned with the deity.

    • 153 posts
    September 21, 2018 7:37 AM PDT

    I wish games would refrain from forums and feedback options -_-, maybe its for a greater good >.>, one think i cant stand is someone giving a reason for doing something is simply "Because "I" want it"

    • 198 posts
    September 21, 2018 7:48 AM PDT
    I plan to play a Paladin and I'm good with being a human or a dwarf.
    • 1303 posts
    September 21, 2018 8:10 AM PDT

    I can appreciated the desire for paladins to be playable by more races. But lore and race personality might not allow for it. 

    Paladins (holy knights) do what they do in service and sacrafice to a deity. That deity is honored in certain ways based on lore. It might not make sense, or even be appropriate, for elves for instance to show fealty to a particular god in the way that paladins do. 

    And this isn't some holdover from WoW. This was true back in EQ as well. High elves could be paladins because their worship of a particular god was much more alike to the way humans prayed to one of two gods, then the wood elves. So it made a degree of sense high elves could be paladins but wood elves could not.  And half-elves could be paladins based on the human part of their heritage, and that culture being a part of their bloodlines. Erudites were essentially human, with a human culture, so... 

     

    • 3237 posts
    September 21, 2018 9:50 AM PDT

    It probably doesn't make sense for elves to go on a rampage and kill their own kind either but the game isn't going to prevent that from happening.  I think it's kind of weird how we'll have a meaningful faction system that allows players complete freedom to do things that contradict lore ... but at the same time, lore is supposed to dictate what "class" someone can be?  How immersion breaking is that?  According to "lore" Skar are supposed to behave a certain way.  Yada yada yada.  We write our own stories ... that's the beauty of an open world non-linear game.  All that said ... I can appreciate there being limitations at character inception.  Once someone gets involved with Progeny, though, I think they should have total freedom when it comes to race/class combinations.  Maybe the parent will need to meet certain faction requirements to allow some of the more exotic combos but it should be possible.  If lore is supposed to dictate what class we can play then does it make sense that the game would strip a paladin of their class because they don't act how paladins are supposed to act?

    Consider the human races and imagine telling someone they don't qualify for a certain job because of their "race personality."  "Historically the people in your region are fishermen and don't believe in "God X" so you don't qualify as someone that can be a pastor.  It's just not possible because of your heritage."  We can cite lore for days when it comes to why things work a certain way and maybe that's fine for NPC's but when it comes to player characters we should be able to play them how we want.  If that requires a prestigious unlock through progeny so be it.  Are we reading a story while we play or writing our own?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 21, 2018 10:26 AM PDT
    • 153 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:30 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    It probably doesn't make sense for elves to go on a rampage and kill their own kind either but the game isn't going to prevent that from happening.  I think it's kind of weird how we'll have a meaningful faction system that allows players complete freedom to do things that contradict lore ... but at the same time, lore is supposed to dictate what "class" someone can be?  How immersion breaking is that?  According to "lore" Skar are supposed to behave a certain way.  Yada yada yada.  We write our own stories ... that's the beauty of an open world non-linear game.  All that said ... I can appreciate there being limitations at character inception.  Once someone gets involved with Progeny, though, I think they should have total freedom when it comes to race/class combinations.  Maybe the parent will need to meet certain faction requirements to allow some of the more exotic combos but it should be possible.  If lore is supposed to dictate what class we can play then does it make sense that the game would strip a paladin of their class because they don't act how paladins are supposed to act?

    Consider the human races and imagine telling someone they don't qualify for a certain job because of their "race personality."  "Historically the people in your region are fishermen and don't believe in "God X" so you don't qualify as someone that can be a pastor.  It's just not possible because of your heritage."  We can cite lore for days when it comes to why things work a certain way and maybe that's fine for NPC's but when it comes to player characters we should be able to play them how we want.  If that requires a prestigious unlock through progeny so be it.  Are we reading a story while we play or writing our own?

     

    Yes but all in all why wouldnt you pick a race/class that aligns with how you want to play? Unless youre one of those guys that likes to play with barbies.

    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:40 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    It probably doesn't make sense for elves to go on a rampage and kill their own kind either but the game isn't going to prevent that from happening.  I think it's kind of weird how we'll have a meaningful faction system that allows players complete freedom to do things that contradict lore ... but at the same time, lore is supposed to dictate what "class" someone can be?  How immersion breaking is that?  According to "lore" Skar are supposed to behave a certain way.  Yada yada yada.  We write our own stories ... that's the beauty of an open world non-linear game.  All that said ... I can appreciate there being limitations at character inception.  Once someone gets involved with Progeny, though, I think they should have total freedom when it comes to race/class combinations.  Maybe the parent will need to meet certain faction requirements to allow some of the more exotic combos but it should be possible.  If lore is supposed to dictate what class we can play then does it make sense that the game would strip a paladin of their class because they don't act how paladins are supposed to act?

    Consider the human races and imagine telling someone they don't qualify for a certain job because of their "race personality."  "Historically the people in your region are fishermen and don't believe in "God X" so you don't qualify as someone that can be a pastor.  It's just not possible because of your heritage."  We can cite lore for days when it comes to why things work a certain way and maybe that's fine for NPC's but when it comes to player characters we should be able to play them how we want.  If that requires a prestigious unlock through progeny so be it.  Are we reading a story while we play or writing our own?

     

    That's right, everyone writes it's own story, and everyone has the freedom to be a very bad writer.

    That's why world lore exists, race deities and behaviour, and why they should stick to a matrix of unchangeable limits : The world itself is set by talentuous storyliners, and pocket cases of player doing as they wish because they just hate the fact to follow rules and rulesets, or they just stick to the most funny / easy solution (farming guards heh ! ). We are meant to be droppled near the masses of NPC, and our stories, should not write the future because for most they are only good in our own eyes !

    • 646 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:40 AM PDT

    I agree completely, oneADseven. And so long as the progeny system does not require any sacrificing of a character, I think that would be a decent way to unlock additional race/class combinations (though it does kind of bother me that someone might really want to play as X but would be forced to play through the game as Y just to unlock what they actually want to do...)

    You make an excellent point re: humans and roles in real life, as well. I've never understood why people who play video games have this habit of treating every character - NPC or PC - of a given race as locked into a single archetype. It just doesn't seem realistic.

    • 153 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:44 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    I agree completely, oneADseven. And so long as the progeny system does not require any sacrificing of a character, I think that would be a decent way to unlock additional race/class combinations (though it does kind of bother me that someone might really want to play as X but would be forced to play through the game as Y just to unlock what they actually want to do...)

    You make an excellent point re: humans and roles in real life, as well. I've never understood why people who play video games have this habit of treating every character - NPC or PC - of a given race as locked into a single archetype. It just doesn't seem realistic.

    Its actually very realistic, and only someone under the age of 25 would make such a ridiculous assumption, Im a machinist because its what i excel at, im not basketball player, im not a drive thru clerk, im not a sales rep, im a machinist because i dont have the desire/skillset to do the other things, and being brought up around mechanical objects its more instilled in my heart to do what i do.

    • 3237 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:47 AM PDT

    Riqq said:

    Its actually very realistic, and only someone under the age of 25 would make such a ridiculous assumption, Im a machinist because its what i excel at, im not basketball player, im not a drive thru clerk, im not a sales rep, im a machinist because i dont have the desire/skillset to do the other things, and being brought up around mechanical objects its more instilled in my heart to do what i do.

    Being brought up a certain way or having things instilled in your heart isn't completely based on your race.  Imagine being brought up that same way and having natural talent to be a machinist but learning that you could never actually be one because of your race.  Doesn't make sense at all.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 21, 2018 10:48 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:52 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    I agree completely, oneADseven. And so long as the progeny system does not require any sacrificing of a character, I think that would be a decent way to unlock additional race/class combinations (though it does kind of bother me that someone might really want to play as X but would be forced to play through the game as Y just to unlock what they actually want to do...)

    You make an excellent point re: humans and roles in real life, as well. I've never understood why people who play video games have this habit of treating every character - NPC or PC - of a given race as locked into a single archetype. It just doesn't seem realistic.

     

    Because the culture of a race, or IRL, a country, leaves a strong print on anyone. That's extremely obvious for food habits, but in distant countries, it takes more sense than ever.

    While in Europe or america the behaviour between countries or states aren't excessively different, travel far away (china, japan, south america) and you will experience different tone of behaviours intricated in everyone's mind throught culture and education.

    I went recently in Mongolia for a trip, and trust me they differ in many habits, culture, mindset. Because they are grown under different beliefs, a harder life and another history. And they are of the same race as we are : humans.

     

    Take this spectrum with different races that cannot really look at another and tell themselves "We are the same", because they lack thoses pointy edges or a totally different physionomy. Now take them out of their homeworld a few years / centuries ago and put them in a new world where they need to survive and stick together : Now it's Pantheon's setup.

     

    Most races in pantheon have a longer history out of terminus than in terminus, they remain as their roots and would stick to their origin even more.

    • 646 posts
    September 21, 2018 10:57 AM PDT

    Riqq said:Its actually very realistic, and only someone under the age of 25 would make such a ridiculous assumption, Im a machinist because its what i excel at, im not basketball player, im not a drive thru clerk, im not a sales rep, im a machinist because i dont have the desire/skillset to do the other things, and being brought up around mechanical objects its more instilled in my heart to do what i do.

    Ignoring the ridiculous age comment... But are all humans machinists? No.

    MauvaisOeil said:Because the culture of a race, or IRL, a country, leaves a strong print on anyone.

    Each race should at least have access to the 4 roles. While cultures do things differently, they all have the same basic needs.


    This post was edited by Naunet at September 21, 2018 10:59 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    September 21, 2018 11:11 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Riqq said:Its actually very realistic, and only someone under the age of 25 would make such a ridiculous assumption, Im a machinist because its what i excel at, im not basketball player, im not a drive thru clerk, im not a sales rep, im a machinist because i dont have the desire/skillset to do the other things, and being brought up around mechanical objects its more instilled in my heart to do what i do.

    Ignoring the ridiculous age comment... But are all humans machinists? No.

    MauvaisOeil said:Because the culture of a race, or IRL, a country, leaves a strong print on anyone.

    Each race should at least have access to the 4 roles. While cultures do things differently, they all have the same basic needs.

     

    Oh, I see it's just a nonsense argument fight for class representation. Sorry I thought it was a more general fact about races behaviour. I really don't think any culture would say "we need tanks" or "we need healers", "we need DPS" or "we need control" but that's my opinion here. While we can argue about the medecine and witch doctors of any culture, the only race having access to no heals seems way out of need of anything related to the body.

    • 945 posts
    September 21, 2018 11:41 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    You make an excellent point re: humans and roles in real life, as well. I've never understood why people who play video games have this habit of treating every character - NPC or PC - of a given race as locked into a single archetype. It just doesn't seem realistic.

    This happens all of the time in real life and it makes complete sense when you look at it through my lenses.  Its not called race/class restrictions though, its called racism.

    edit:  That sounded way darker than I intended, but just comparing it to reality. 


    This post was edited by Darch at September 21, 2018 12:18 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    September 21, 2018 11:54 AM PDT

    lotuss79 said:

    If the Archai are a truely good race, deviated from the Skar who are a truely bad race, would it not make sense to have Skar Dire Lords and Archai Paladins as similarily deviated archtypes?

    The thing about that is that while yes Archai might be a "good" race they don't have the same centralized focus and relationship with religion nor would it seem (from what we know) that they have ancient orders with preserved written word from their celestials. 

     "After the Deicide War, communion with the Celestials is nearly unheard of. Thus, the Cleric can scarcely rely on their Pantheon directly. Instead, they must bind themselves to the ancient tomes of their Order; the fading vestiges of light from when the Celestials had drawn near."

     Clerics/Paladins also don't really fit with Elves or Halfling either. The Elves have gone their entire history not being clerics (presumeably manifesting any religious leanings through druidism/shamanism) or having a rigid clerical order, and religion isn't a core part of their society/identity.

     Halfling may hate and hunt wraiths but that alone isn't indicative that they should have or could fit cleric/paladins, especially since of all the races they are probably the least inclined to follow any kind of rigid order or spend years studying:

    "Halflings break into three distinct groups: The Nothi, Maidyn Clan, and the aforementioned Esqaps. The Nothi draw on a deep vendetta against Molsth the Wraith King, who cursed them ages ago on their home world. They are the standard bearers for a lifelong campaign of retribution against wraiths, and slyly usurped the Esqaps in picking Wild's End as a home -- just to be close to a high population of wraiths in the Gate...Nothi also seek a balance between their fervor and the need for recuperation. As for history, well, Nothi pretty much live moment to moment and don't have a great love for 'the study of old things'.

    ...Maidyn Clan are the spiritual heartbeat of the Halflings. They are easily the most reserved and contemplative of the race, seeking to find, follow and know the Six Wards that guide their people. The Halfling Pantheon is different from the other refugee races, and may allow for interactions with the Wards that are different from other races as well..."

    The Halflings most dedicated to hunting wraiths (Nothi) have no love for studying old things, basically they wouldn't be caught dead lending themselves to a strict order and studying ancient tomes. Then you have the Maidyn which maybe could get into that kind of thing...which wouldn't seem likely given everything about their lives/personalities/traits. Also the Wards aren't the same as other racial deities, they aren't celestials so for them to obtain celestial powers from Wards would raise some eyes/questions. 

     

    Dulu said:

    #3 - Elf lore also has a pretty good opening for Paladins. A civil conflict among their population between the wild roots (pun intended) of Elf-Kind, and a newer, more civilized Elf culture, which could be spear-headed by the clergy. This opens a really fascinating fantasy lore angle I'm not sure we've ever seen... An Elf political drama, the new ways vs the old ways. Perhaps some great quests could be woven in, with players of all classes deciding where to pledge their allegience, the halls of Druidism, or the Temples of the Clerics/Paladins.

    "Ashen are generally cold and dispassionate toward outsiders. This isn't because they think everyone beyond Faerthale is the Revenant or Tohr'mentirii (read the lore), though there is a distrust toward non-Elves that can lead to suspicion. Instead the Ashen have cultivated an intense preoccupation with their own world. They have no great trouble acknowledging the good of others, but they are reluctant to see the merit in embracing them. If the Elven way is the best way then any way that's not Elven is, by default, not as good.

    For Lucent Elves, the Ashen heritage of suspicion toward outsiders is distilled down into something more like reservation and caution. They don't all have the same thoughts toward outsiders, but generally speaking they have no abiding fear of other races or overwhelming concern about their presence within Elven territory. But they still prefer the woods of their home to the wilds of elsewhere, and if they travel beyond Faerthale it is most often out of need instead of adventure.

    The Ember cut a path far beyond their siblings due to a zeal that lives just below the skin. It isn't a passion of affection, but a fervent desire to visit death upon would be harmers of their people while they are still far away from Faerthale. I think this is where a misconception can occur in who the Ember are, because they are not simply the more relaxed and fiery cousin in the family. They don't necessarily trust outsiders any more than Ashen, but they do see the merit of exploring and engaging the vastness of the outside world. The Ember have an aggressive concern for their people that manifests in a hunter's heart, rather than a priest's piety."

    "The Ashen/Ember fracture originates in an old but common cultural conundrum: how do we survive in this hostile world? For Ashen that answer can only be found in an earnestly devout and studiously insulated culture. A culture that carries the sorrow of their past on their very face, cradles it in their heart and meditates on it in their mind.

    For Ember, that approach sounds like a well bodied creature stepping into a coffin and calling it a suit of armor. This is not because Ember are careless or flighty. In fact they draw on an even more ancient heritage of Elfdom, an era when the race stood alone as masters of an entire hemisphere."

     Regardless of where an elf lies on the spectrum, they are all fairly united in the Elven way and reverent of their heritage/history. It would be an absolutely massive leap to drop everything Elves have been and take up being heavily religious and fashion strict orders of clerics/paladins, especially if (as stated above) they lack ancient texts of any of their deities that grant the same divine powers. It's entirely possible none of the Elven deities grant such powers regardless. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at September 21, 2018 11:54 AM PDT