Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

While reworking Skar, can we look at Paladins?

    • 74 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:40 AM PDT

    Human and Dwarf are the only choices for Paladins currently.

     

    World of Warcraft came out in 2004, can we please move past this cliche?

     

    Elves, Halflings, Wood Elves? "Evil" Paladins like Dark Myr?

     

    Something unique, please.

    • 411 posts
    • 74 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:55 AM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:59 AM PDT
    If you want an evil paladin maybe you should play a direlord?
    • 74 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:13 AM PDT

    philo said: If you want an evil paladin maybe you should play a direlord?

     

    Not really the same.

     

    Think of the Knights from the Crusades, or the warriors of the Inquisition.

     

    It's very possible to be a "Holy Warrior", but part of a less-than-good cause.

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:16 AM PDT

    I have to agree that I grow very tired of those kinds of stereotypical race/class design choices.

    • 153 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:17 AM PDT

    Dulu said:

    philo said: If you want an evil paladin maybe you should play a direlord?

     

    Not really the same.

     

    Think of the Knights from the Crusades, or the warriors of the Inquisition.

     

    It's very possible to be a "Holy Warrior", but part of a less-than-good cause.

     

    I think you have good and evil backwards man.....

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:28 AM PDT

    This is a dead horse that has been kicked and kicked.  Only a handful of Paladin fans like the dev's race/class restriction for Paladin but the Paladin is Brad's baby so no matter how much we complain this will not change for at least 2 expansions.  But to defend your opinion, I too cannot stand the World of Warcraft cliche' of only Humans and Dwarves.  What makes the arguement even worse is that the PRotF Paladin is supposedly a former cleric turned more militant... and the Dark Myr can be both Cleric and Warrior, but not Paladin?  huh?!?  A lot of DnD players will argue that Good and Evil are perception... One man's hero is another man's villain.

    • 153 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:34 AM PDT

    I dont think some people understand, that a "bad paladin" is a direlord, its quite simple if you want to be a bad paladin they have one...., the class is a specific class, why would you even want to change it? thats so bizzare, almost to the point of people want it just in spite of what it is, you know what im saying? the latter is there, individuality lies in diversity, which is gifted through the class system, there is no i want to be a rogue warrior ranger dragon half fire half ice crap, its so flamboyant and it detrimental to the game, and if you dont understand that logic then you need to take morphine daily.

    • 1247 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:35 AM PDT
    I absolutely love that Humans and Dwarves can only play the Paladin. That’s what it is and all that it should be. It’s unique as is.

    Play a Dire Lord.

    Problem solved.
    • 3852 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:43 AM PDT

    For what little it is worth I too agree in overall concept.

    Even if one defines paladin as a dedicated melee warrior for a God who is mostly or entirely "good" - are no Gods of any other race as "good" as the Gods of humans and dwarves. Are no other races permitted to be melee classes who can be granted powers by their Gods?

    But in defense of the decision - it has *gameplay* benefits. One of the goals of Pantheon is to make classes separate and distinct. No class can do everything - a balanced group needs at least three or four different classes.

    Is it not also beneficial to make races distinctly different? No - not to the extent that a group cannot be balanced unless it has three or four different races. But to the extent that picking a race *matters* both in terms of attributes and available classes.

    One can fairly argue that there should be more than two races with paladins. One can fairly argue that human and dwarf are the *wrong* two. One can fairly argue that other classes should be just as limited as paladin by race. All I am saying is that I do see gameplay benefits to limiting classes significantly by race.


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 19, 2018 7:44 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:46 AM PDT

    Let's hope that participating in progeny (a feature meant to offer prestige) will allow players to unlock new race/class combinations.

    • 363 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:51 AM PDT

    First, Archetypes are standard and stereotypical for a reason. They are archetypes lol

    Second, DnD has lawful good, and evil, but I don't think Pantheon is following this and I'm completely fine with that. You can always just pretend you're evil and roleplay. Will that work? :D


    This post was edited by Willeg at September 19, 2018 12:27 PM PDT
    • 411 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:55 AM PDT

    This is either a Paladin-specific discussion (therefore repeating previous threads in the Paladin forum) or not a unique discussion to the Paladin class. For every person who wants to play a Dark Myr Paladin there will be someone who wants to play an Ogre Wizard or any other race/class combination. There are only two options as far as I can tell.

    1) Have no race/class restrictions.

    2) Make race/class restrictions based on what makes sense with the lore.

    It seems VR is going with option 2 and they have actually talked about this. Please read this quote that Bazgrim posted in one of the threads I referenced. It explains quite clearly how they're making their decisions on what races can be Paladins.

    From the Loremaster himself:

    "Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard.

    “While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them”

    It is also important to note that many of the lore based decisions on which race can be which class are also dictated to some degree by overall game representations and balance, and more importantly that just because something is currently so, doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t change in the future. Elves are a good example here, as while they currently don’t produce the pious classes, they may, through future events or interactions, develop a sect that takes up that mantle.

    We will have to keep a close watch on the lore to see what might develop in the future."

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:59 AM PDT

    Ainadak said:1) Have no race/class restrictions.

    2) Make race/class restrictions based on what makes sense with the lore.

    I personally prefer Option 1 but acknowledge that VR has chosen to go with Option 2. However, allowing Dark Myr to be clerics but not paladins doesn't really follow. (Please let it be known, VR, that I am NOT advocating for you removing cleric from Dark Myr... quite the opposite!)

    I also think the other very limited classes need to be expanded - Dire Lord, Ranger, probably Monk and Summoner too. More options is pretty much always a good thing.

    • 3852 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:08 AM PDT

    ((More options is pretty much always a good thing.))

     

    Not necessarily. By this logic Rift is a perfect game - any class can handle any role. So is FFXIV - any character can add class after class until it can do anything - alts are neither necessary nor encouraged - in fact they are actively discouraged. But Pantheon has different core objectives - each character should be strictly limited and if you want to tank, DPS, CC and heal create 4 characters.

    Applying the same concept to races may not be as clearly a core objective of Pantheon but it is entirely consistant to have significant limitations on race/class combinations so that if you want to play certain races *and* play certain classes it works the same way as if you want to play multiple roles. You need multiple characters.

    • 1785 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:27 AM PDT

    I think, perhaps, this type of discussion is why the Paladin class was originally planned to have a different name :)  Just saying.

    I respect the team's intent to have race/class selections make sense based on racial lore.

    I do hope that they will continue to evaluate that as the lore evolves though, so that we don't run into a place where it really doesn't make sense once the race is in its final implementation.

    Plus, I feel that it's appropriate for Progeny to be a way for us to get "nontraditional" race/class combinations.  I realize not everyone will like having to do it that way, but it will certainly make Progeny compelling for some.


    This post was edited by Nephele at September 19, 2018 8:28 AM PDT
    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:30 AM PDT

    dorotea said:((More options is pretty much always a good thing.))

     

    Not necessarily. By this logic Rift is a perfect game - any class can handle any role. So is FFXIV - any character can add class after class until it can do anything - alts are neither necessary nor encouraged - in fact they are actively discouraged. But Pantheon has different core objectives - each character should be strictly limited and if you want to tank, DPS, CC and heal create 4 characters.

    I actually love the lack of race/class restrictions in those games. :P Quit FFXIV cause I didn't like SE's arbitrary restrictions on glamour, but I still play Rift every so often.

    Nephele said:Plus, I feel that it's appropriate for Progeny to be a way for us to get "nontraditional" race/class combinations.  I realize not everyone will like having to do it that way, but it will certainly make Progeny compelling for some.

    If they tie getting additional race/class combos to the Progeny system... that will be very disappointing. I have no desire to sacrifice characters I created and love.


    This post was edited by Naunet at September 19, 2018 8:33 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:41 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    If they tie getting additional race/class combos to the Progeny system... that will be very disappointing. I have no desire to sacrifice characters I created and love.

    I believe they have all but thrown out the idea of sacrificing characters at this point.  I can't point at a specific dev post or anything like that, but I wouldn't assume that it's going to be a requirement :)

    If it is a requirement... yeah, I wouldn't use it either.

    • 2419 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:50 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Ainadak said:1) Have no race/class restrictions.

    2) Make race/class restrictions based on what makes sense with the lore.

    I personally prefer Option 1 but acknowledge that VR has chosen to go with Option 2. However, allowing Dark Myr to be clerics but not paladins doesn't really follow.

    Well it absolutely can follow from the perspective of the Dark Myr.  Maybe they are a more rigid and focused society where once you are something, you feel compelled to remain that thing for the good of society and your own personal honor/satisfaction.  Thus, to the Dark Myr, a Paladin is both a failed warrior and a failed cleric where that person was unable to commit fully to the tenents of the class.  To be a paladin in their eyes is to be something less.  Looking at the classes available to the Dark Myr, none of them look to be 'hybrid' classes.  No, the DireLord is not a hybrid (not yet anyway because no necromancer class actually exists and we have no idea if any of the DireLord abilities actualy come from the future Necromancer class).

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 8:53 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:Well it absolutely can follow from the perspective of the Dark Myr.  Maybe they are a more rigid and focused society where once you are something, you feel compelled to remain that thing for the good of society and your own personal honor/satisfaction.

    Maybe. Maybe not. There's nothing in the current lore that states this about Dark Myr.

    • 1479 posts
    September 19, 2018 9:42 AM PDT

    I don't get some arguments : Why something old should be bad ? This whole game is based on the revival of old concept with a better technology and almost 20 years of datas over player behaviour in such games.

    Beeing tired of something that is used as a law of order, doesn't make the whole thing bad or boring. Beeing tired of is mostly a personnal state over the course of self choosen game in a decade. People that are used to play D&D inspired games might be fed up of strict choices, others might not, that's purely subjective.

     

    Paladins can be evil in some games and setups. Is it the case for pantheon ? Maybe not. Maybe that's why it is strict in pantheon, why should other setups be influencial of what Pantheon should do for the sole sake of boredom of a handfull players ?

     

    Overall : If pantheon dev's want paladin as true and lawfull paladins, that's their choice, it's neither bad or good because it will please a major part of the playerbase and displease a minor one that might bug on details or consider matrix as an overused concept.

    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I don't get some arguments : Why something old should be bad ? This whole game is based on the revival of old concept with a better technology and almost 20 years of datas over player behaviour in such games.

    Having 20 years of player data has not taught lessons to some people and that is a little concerning.  Over the past 20 years, the games that have been successful that have race/class selection have done away with "needless" race/class restrictions.  (Some are kept, but most are gone in the games that are still around.)  The devs have admited that their real reasoning for their race/class choices are for balancing, but some try to justify the choices through lore/logic at which point the Dark Myr not being allowed to be Paladin fails when using lore/logic.  With that said, they have mentioned thta some of their choices will likely change in the future. 
    I would've suggested (knowing that it wont change anything) that the better way to do the balancing would have been to adjust class stats based on their race, and let it be known with a big warning label during character creation.  i.e. If someone wanted to be a Skar wizard they should be able to, but Skar may have very low INT making them very poor INT casters (assuming Necro could use CON as their resource stat and SHM use WIS).  Or if someone wanted to be a gnome Monk or Warrior they may have very low STR and CON.  You could also add an EXP penalty due to the inability to have learned from racial peers.  This would've discourage most players from playing race/class combos that punish them, but not completely restrict them from playing "what they want to play".
    At the end of the day, what 20 years of game data has shown us is that people are going to play "what they want to play", which means that if PRotF doesn't provide them with "what they want to play" they will likely always be on the lookout for a game that will let them play "what they want to play".  (Which is likely what the devs will wait for... the population to start to drop and then  they will make changes to ruin the experience for those that are enjoying it, and then the cycle will continue... that is what 20 years of player data has taught me).


    This post was edited by Darch at September 19, 2018 11:18 AM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:15 AM PDT

    Doesn't make a lot of sense to let minor lore negatively impact the desires of a lot of people. 

    I don't care at all about Pallys, I will never play one, but it will be a damn shame if people are turned off the game because their favorite class only has 2 race choices. 

    Meanwhile, the game is catering to all sorts of other casual player desires. I'm sure they have their reasoning, but it's not evident to me. 

    • 752 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:31 AM PDT
    I agree that a “evil paladin” is not a direlord. Its a paladin that belongs to an evil race. You can still worship a good or evil god and belong to a opposite factional viewpoint. You can be a good rogue or an evil rogue it is the skills that make the class.