Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Two guilds arrive at an overland raid mob...

    • 1860 posts
    August 27, 2018 10:58 AM PDT

    Pantheon will be most damage done earns the kill.  I'm surprised people seem to not know that.

    Before someone says it...yes of course it's prealpha.  Currently it is most damage dealt...and that is what is planned for the future.

    • 198 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:06 AM PDT

    philo said:

    Pantheon will be most damage done earns the kill.  I'm surprised people seem to not know that.

    Before someone says it...yes of course it's prealpha.  Currently it is most damage dealt...and that is what is planned for the future.

    Can you point me to where it says that, because I've seen a whole host of answers, including a possible blend of content geared toward varying levels of playstyles.  "Something for everyone".

    Also, I don't think there is any raid content in the game yet?  Dungeon != raid.


    This post was edited by Parascol at August 27, 2018 11:07 AM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:13 AM PDT

    Parascol said:

    philo said:

    Pantheon will be most damage done earns the kill.  I'm surprised people seem to not know that.

    Before someone says it...yes of course it's prealpha.  Currently it is most damage dealt...and that is what is planned for the future.

    Can you point me to where it says that,

    Nope, I'm not going to take the time to dig it up.  It shouldn't be to difficult to find the most recent info on the subject since most of the streams are broken down fairly well if you care enough to look for it.

    • 198 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:16 AM PDT

    philo said:

    Parascol said:

    philo said:

    Pantheon will be most damage done earns the kill.  I'm surprised people seem to not know that.

    Before someone says it...yes of course it's prealpha.  Currently it is most damage dealt...and that is what is planned for the future.

    Can you point me to where it says that,

    Nope, I'm not going to take the time to dig it up.  It shouldn't be to difficult to find the most recent info on the subject since most of the streams are broken down fairly well if you care enough to look for it.

    I must have missed the stream that featured a raid.  I'll keep looking.

    • 3237 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    Philo is correct.  Joppa has confirmed in multiple interviews that Pantheon will be using MDD for kill credit.

    https://youtu.be/o3Holmesv34?t=3148


    This post was edited by oneADseven at August 27, 2018 11:21 AM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    what?  most damage dealt vs first to engage is not raid specific

     
     
     
    • 198 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:20 AM PDT

    philo said:

    what?  most damage dealt vs first to engage is not raid specific

     
     
     

     

    But this topic is, and as far as I'm aware there are no raids implemented yet.  If it is meant to span all the way up through raid content, then it might be a good tidbit for the faq regardless.

    I am genuinely confused specifically around raids, because I could have swore I read/heard somewhere that they are planning to try and appeal to everyone, including the more casual.  Why is this important?  Because it could mean that MDD might not apply in at least some cases for raids specifically.  They haven't really given any details around HOW they plan to do this.  It's really hard to answer Kilsin's question when we don't really know what rules, if any, will be in place for overland raid targets.

    If there are no lockout timers, or other mechanics designed to limit content monopolization, then the answer is easy:  Play 24/7 so you can zoom to max first and stay ahead of everyone else who is unwilling/unable to do that.  If MDD is the only thing to worry about, then both guilds simply dps it down and hope they did the most.  If we all already know this, then what is left to debate?


    This post was edited by Parascol at August 27, 2018 11:44 AM PDT
    • 73 posts
    August 27, 2018 11:27 AM PDT

    Looking back to Vanguard raiding days...because EQ memories have fogged over.

    PVP Server

    Raid force gathers at raid boss, raid leader forms groups and buffing commences, other characters enter area... At this point the raid leader/officers/guild leaders  always had pvp "Wolf Pack" ready to engage anyone that presented a threat to our raid force. If they came in force whole raid would engage and PVP would ensue and if we won and they respected the loot and scoot "rule" the raid would give the raid boss a go. if they were griefers they would come back over and over and over and attack the healers and try and wipe the raid and noone would ever learn the fight or get better gear. I didn't get to see much content because of pvp, and once merged with PVE servers people made fun of my gear...lol

    PVE Server

    Raid force gathers at Tharridon, raid leader forms groups and buffing commences, second raid force arrives... At this point the raid leader/officers/guild leaders talk with other raid/guild leaders and typically the first raid force would have the go ahead to engage and usually the other guild would leave zone/area so not to learn mechanics of fight ...yet there always seem to be some low level characters viewing from a distance. We would give it 2-3 attempts, or a set time period if learning the fight, then leave the zone for the other guild to give it a go. Once we learned the mechanic and he would then become "Farm Status" we would kill him every Tuesday at 8 pm est. from then on, or whenever the lock out was up. 

     

    • 1120 posts
    August 27, 2018 1:33 PM PDT

    Akilae said:

    Porygon said:

    Step 1: Set up your groups to maximize dps.

    Step 2: Pretend to run atthe mob causing group 2 to also run in

    Step 3: Let them tank while all of your tanks and healers dps.

    Step 4: Profit.

    That only works if threat is locked on first engagement. In every game I've played, EQ included, threat went to the tank doing the best job of taunting or the dps who dumped damage on the mob and out-threated the tank. Your suggestion would require a careful balance of dps'ing enough to "win" the loot but without out-threating the tank, all while ensuring your raid is doing more damage than the other.

    I've been in exactly this situation before in EQ.  Negotiations failed between raid leaders and both raids attacked the boss. Ours dumped dps on the boss, frequently took aggro and we still lost the dps race to win the loot.  All in all it was a couple hours none of us will ever get back and we'll never know how close we were to winning that fight.

    Unless the other guilds tanks purposefully try and lose aggro.. (which is a high level tactic most likely not used by most players!) They should be able to hold aggro just as well as my tanks.  Most MTs are going to be the most skilled in the guild  which means with threat generation as well.

    Your dps still need to manage aggro... since dead dps is 0 dps.  But this tactic will work more often than ot doesnt

    • 31 posts
    August 27, 2018 2:38 PM PDT

      This is honestly  a point of contention for me.  Having been a former eq player of 12 yrs I dealt with the early inception of raiding.  Naggy and Vox were only raids prior to plane of fear release or plane of hate.  On these it was tyipcally first come first serve.  I will tell you from experience that often who attacked first was not always the one who completed the kill lol.  Typically the guild that went first... rushed itself either number wise or buff wise... and I can not tell you how many times another guild would be medding up for engage when the other guild would actually start.  This was not good on initial release for one very specific reason.  If raid was not contested, which happen way to often because of time zones.  You had no clue to the timer on which raid would repop.  This was a HUUGE advantage to Euro guilds in regards to competing with U.S. guilds. Once one guild locked down the timer..almost no one else but that guild had access to that raid.  This was changed a bit  a few years later when started with random timer for repop of raid mob. They would be able to say.. mob respawned in 5-7 days as opposed to exact 7 day timer.  This helped a lot. Still had guild scouts camped at all raid mobs but at least it gave you a fighting chance for raid.

      I will be very frank about this.  I hated open world raid bosses.  Not because I did not like the challenge or the ability it added to rarity of items on server but because of the randomness of when raids would take place. When you are trying to keep 30-150 guild members happy a huge part of that was raiding. A single number one guild on server would farm raids, get better gear and more influx of players on this alone.  Many small guilds died to this fact alone.  Also when devs did make future raids it was not about average guilds gear it was top guilds gear.  This usually lead to nearly 2-3 expansions delay in rest of guilds equipment and accomplishments. Difficult to do raids when people would train mobs or boss onto opposing guilds which happened far to often.  The chance at Non guild members would ninja loot the raid boss after it was downed.  Sleeper was also a good example of why I hated open world raid bosses.  Sleeper was set up to be a one time world kill.  If a guild killed sleeper on your server he was gone.  All his raid loot and weapons no longer dropped in its current form.  You could still raid zone.. but the sleeper and his guardians were altered forever as well as the zones loot and weapons... (damn prismatic weapons instead of primal)

      My sincere hope is that the pantheon team will strongly reconsider raids to be instanced.  This alleviated so much negative from open world raids.  Guilds could raid when their larger player base was actually on.  Raids could be better tuned difficulty wise by limiting the number of people who could participate. This part also allowed larger guilds to be a little less dominant on content denial. The content deniel was huge not just in raid gear but also group gearing.  A party with much better gear could clear out much more area then a lesser group geared group.  Those guilds who were highly skilled and geared were able to do hard versions of raids.  These were represented with larger hps on boss mob, more damage from aoes.. and most importantly smaller raid sizes permitted in zone.  Gearing up was based on guilds skill not simply random luck on encounter timer.  Expansion from expansion this allowed more guilds to access current content vrs the left overs from larger guilds.  The timers were locked out so you still had ability to reduce gear from flooding the server as well as speed to advance threw more difficult raids.

      The most imprtant reason to go to instanced raids.  Raiding sessions time obligation.  Having raid instances allowed you to plan raids by time of the day, time of the week, so you could better control the activity of guild as a whole.  You could say.. we will be raiding from 7pm to 11 pm on tues thurs and sat. Plan your raids accordingly.  I can not think of any greater customization for a guild then that.

    • 35 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:03 PM PDT

    MDD or FTE isn't the question here.

    back to topic:

    if two guilds are meeting at overland boss then the guild which is first in area and ready can pull our guild should not do any damage. we will wait and see what happen. in case of wipe we probably rezzing a healer of guild A. then we are preparing for battle and next try is our. if they kill the mob we probably knew the respawn. thats it. Competition is one, but its still a game.

    If we fight the same boss at the same time it does not feel right. Yes anywhere was a statement that maybe some encounters scaling. but this was said often from other games and till now i did not have seen a well working system. so if booth guilds are fighting at same time then it always feel like zerging. this is not my playstyle.

    • 16 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:04 PM PDT

     

    I'm confused as to why this question was posed.  As several people who have already responded pointed out, the current plan we have been told to expect is that credit for a kill will belong to those that deal the most damage.  

    If this design decision is still up for debate (it is still pre-alpha) then this question holds much more validity, and there are several answers here that spell out the pros and cons of the two most common solutions to kill credit. (I particularly liked the post by oneADseven)

    But if that is still the plan, then the answer seems as if it will almost certainly be a dps race, which in my humble opinion is in direct opposition to the goal of making the game about the journey rather than the endgame.  

    As others have stated, the dps race leads to a few select guilds racing to max level ahead of as many as possible and once there establishing their dominance as a/the competitive raid force because, lets face it, once you are on top, it's pretty easy to stay there. Expansion after expansion after expansion. 

    The counter argument, that just getting max level asap will leave them ill-equiped to successfully raid, is merely a promotional talking point until proven, since that head start (max level) is significant and is exactly why every game out there suffers the exact same fate; race to max level, raid, get bored waiting for additional content, lose some raiders, recruit/poach replacements shortly before the expansion launches, rinse/repeat upon release. 

    I'm not suggesting it is right or wrong, I participated in such guilds when I was younger and had the time to invest in a competitive raiding guild with an 'on-watch' rotation of people camping spawn points, call chains, and a 20 minute recall requirement.  It was exciting, for sure, but I'm older now and those days are behind me.  I'm not against letting those that want to play that way have their turn at it, I just know that I won't be competing against them.

    I'm looking forward to the promise of that journey VR is selling.  

     

    • 16 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:27 PM PDT

    Pufug said:

    MDD or FTE isn't the question here.

    back to topic:

    if two guilds are meeting at overland boss then the guild which is first in area and ready can pull our guild should not do any damage. we will wait and see what happen. in case of wipe we probably rezzing a healer of guild A. then we are preparing for battle and next try is our. if they kill the mob we probably knew the respawn. thats it. Competition is one, but its still a game.

    If we fight the same boss at the same time it does not feel right. Yes anywhere was a statement that maybe some encounters scaling. but this was said often from other games and till now i did not have seen a well working system. so if booth guilds are fighting at same time then it always feel like zerging. this is not my playstyle.

     

    Isn't it though?  Your own answer says what your guild "should" do.  I think most of us just expect that MDD leads to the dps race, since that mechanic negates kill stealing complaints by design.  Sure some guilds might do what you suggest and adopt the wait and see approach, but that is much more likely in the FTE model.  And when it comes to contested raid mobs, well I just expect the absolute worst from people since I've seen it first hand. 

    • 134 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:40 PM PDT

    DakodaFarstrider said:

     

    I'm confused as to why this question was posed.  As several people who have already responded pointed out, the current plan we have been told to expect is that credit for a kill will belong to those that deal the most damage.  

    If this design decision is still up for debate (it is still pre-alpha) then this question holds much more validity, and there are several answers here that spell out the pros and cons of the two most common solutions to kill credit. (I particularly liked the post by oneADseven)

    But if that is still the plan, then the answer seems as if it will almost certainly be a dps race, which in my humble opinion is in direct opposition to the goal of making the game about the journey rather than the endgame.  

    As others have stated, the dps race leads to a few select guilds racing to max level ahead of as many as possible and once there establishing their dominance as a/the competitive raid force because, lets face it, once you are on top, it's pretty easy to stay there. Expansion after expansion after expansion. 

    The counter argument, that just getting max level asap will leave them ill-equiped to successfully raid, is merely a promotional talking point until proven, since that head start (max level) is significant and is exactly why every game out there suffers the exact same fate; race to max level, raid, get bored waiting for additional content, lose some raiders, recruit/poach replacements shortly before the expansion launches, rinse/repeat upon release. 

    I'm not suggesting it is right or wrong, I participated in such guilds when I was younger and had the time to invest in a competitive raiding guild with an 'on-watch' rotation of people camping spawn points, call chains, and a 20 minute recall requirement.  It was exciting, for sure, but I'm older now and those days are behind me.  I'm not against letting those that want to play that way have their turn at it, I just know that I won't be competing against them.

    I'm looking forward to the promise of that journey VR is selling.  

     

     

    You are actually confused to as what the question is. The question isn't who gets the loot the question is WHAT HAPPENS? Do the two rival guilds hug it out with words? Do they engage in PvP? Does one guild try to KS? The question is not "who gets the loot?" As well it was asked by a member of the VR team so show some respect to their hard work please.

    • 1019 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:41 PM PDT

    If the mob doesn't lock on engagment.  Both guilds will go at it at the same time.  Both trying to out DPS the other and/or in some way trying to get the other guild to wipe.  GUARANTEED!!! 

    If it does lock to encounter (locks on engagement), if both guilds get there at the same time, it's who ever gets their **** ready for pull first and pulls.


    This post was edited by Kittik at August 27, 2018 3:43 PM PDT
    • 612 posts
    August 27, 2018 3:48 PM PDT

    DakodaFarstrider said: I'm confused as to why this question was posed.

    I think many people on this thread are answering a different question than what was asked.

    They seem to be answering the question: What do you think will happen?

    When the real question was: What are the unspoken rules in place as to who gets to go first? What would your guild do?

    The unspoken rules might get ignored, and your own guild ideology might limit your potential to get the kill on one hand or cause a bad reputation on the other hand. Kilsin just wanted to know what the community would like the procedure to be if everyone played nice. But nowhere did Kilsin ask about what people thought that the actual results would be.

    • 198 posts
    August 27, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    If the guild had a good reputation of clearing content and was there first with an adequate raid force, my guild would probably step down.  If the other guild seemed like they might not be able to kill the target, whether it be lack of numbers, or lack of skill, regardless of their reputation, we'd take it.

     


    This post was edited by Parascol at August 27, 2018 4:10 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    August 27, 2018 4:58 PM PDT

    Lassiz:  "How does mob tagging work?"

    Joppa:  "That's a pretty heavy one to get into.  The plan for right now is for MDD (Most Damage Done) to be the way we handle mob tagging.  That of course then raises a lot of questions, a lot of caveats, it's a very philosophical question too, as far as why we chose to go that way.  It has a lot to do with our decision to make Pantheon an open-world game.  At PAX this was one of the most commonly recurring questions ... it's that pair, right, is it open-world or is it instanced ... and if it's open-world, how do you guys plan on handling X?

    There is a lot to say there ... it really gets down to the heart of what Pantheon is.  We've seen ... since that classic era of games, we've seen very very few games that are made in that model if you will.  Whereas you can see a huge myriad of games that have been made in the more modern model ... and that's great, but for us, we see an opportunity to recapture that older classic way of doing things and bring that into the market today because there really isn't anyone embracing that right now the way we want to and so what that means is:

    Open World ... and we go into that eyes wide open and then say okay there are some really amazing benefits to an open world game because of the way it builds community, the way the shared experiences are able to happen, those social bonds and constructs that are created ... but then there are also challenges ... and ... it would take a long time to speak to, but it's good to say that we are aware of those things and we're designing with those things in mind."

     

    All of that will mean different things to different people.  I think it's important to remember what an open world truly means ... it's freedom.  These player constructs that are being alluded to work both ways.  We should never assume that "unspoken rules" are going to be accepted by everybody.  That's a fairy tale ... a pipe dream.  To be completely frank on this ... consider this one golden rule that trumps all others.  "Unspoken rules are for suckers."  Think about what a social construct is.  It's an idea that has been created and accepted by a society.  Let's also note how it was social construct(s) that was referenced, not a singular construct that ties everybody together.  (That's what official rules/systems are for.)  Different societies will behave in different ways and historically speaking ... it truly pays to be the villain.  While one chunk of the population buys into this idea that players should work out deals on pull rotations, the other will be ruthless.

    I mentioned this earlier but ... Systems are intrinsically tied to community politics. Without systems, the game wouldn't exist in the first place.  Community comes after systems, because the entire fabric of how the community can interact and behave is contingent on how the game itself is configured.  This game is being designed ... eyes wide open, with that older classic model in mind.  MDD will be used to determine kill credit.  We need to embrace this as reality and own up to the idea that DPS Racing is going to be a thing in this game.  If you want to buy into the social construct where players work out deals and take turns, you're more than welcome to do that.  Just remember that it's an open world game, and that other social constructs will exist, some of which will run directly counter to your own.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at August 27, 2018 4:59 PM PDT
    • 75 posts
    August 27, 2018 8:20 PM PDT

    My all summoner guild called " WTF Summon Behemoth " would wait until the boss is engaged, then all run in and summon behemoths and let raid healer aggro and aoes draw our uncontrolled behemoths into the opposing raid group.

    • 1860 posts
    August 27, 2018 8:56 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    My all summoner guild called " WTF Summon Behemoth " would wait until the boss is engaged, then all run in and summon behemoths and let raid healer aggro and aoes draw our uncontrolled behemoths into the opposing raid group.

    That ^ is the best answer.

    • 25 posts
    August 27, 2018 10:06 PM PDT

    DakodaFarstrider said:

     

    I'm confused as to why this question was posed.  As several people who have already responded pointed out, the current plan we have been told to expect is that credit for a kill will belong to those that deal the most damage.  

    If this design decision is still up for debate (it is still pre-alpha) then this question holds much more validity, and there are several answers here that spell out the pros and cons of the two most common solutions to kill credit. (I particularly liked the post by oneADseven)

    But if that is still the plan, then the answer seems as if it will almost certainly be a dps race, which in my humble opinion is in direct opposition to the goal of making the game about the journey rather than the endgame.  

    As others have stated, the dps race leads to a few select guilds racing to max level ahead of as many as possible and once there establishing their dominance as a/the competitive raid force because, lets face it, once you are on top, it's pretty easy to stay there. Expansion after expansion after expansion. 

    The counter argument, that just getting max level asap will leave them ill-equiped to successfully raid, is merely a promotional talking point until proven, since that head start (max level) is significant and is exactly why every game out there suffers the exact same fate; race to max level, raid, get bored waiting for additional content, lose some raiders, recruit/poach replacements shortly before the expansion launches, rinse/repeat upon release. 

    I'm not suggesting it is right or wrong, I participated in such guilds when I was younger and had the time to invest in a competitive raiding guild with an 'on-watch' rotation of people camping spawn points, call chains, and a 20 minute recall requirement.  It was exciting, for sure, but I'm older now and those days are behind me.  I'm not against letting those that want to play that way have their turn at it, I just know that I won't be competing against them.

    I'm looking forward to the promise of that journey VR is selling.  

     

    I've never thought about it like that, but you're 100% correct.  Having open world contested raid bosses with no mechanisms to prevent griefing/zerging/shenanigans would promote racing to max level.  The exact opposite of "the journey matters".  Some guilds will race to max level to control the resources.  Others will feel pressured to do the same, lest they get shut out of content.

    • 16 posts
    August 27, 2018 10:35 PM PDT

    Bankie said:

    You are actually confused to as what the question is. The question isn't who gets the loot the question is WHAT HAPPENS? Do the two rival guilds hug it out with words? Do they engage in PvP? Does one guild try to KS? The question is not "who gets the loot?" As well it was asked by a member of the VR team so show some respect to their hard work please.

     

    It was not my intent to be disrespectful to anyone. I appreciate the hard work everyone on the VR team (and this community) is putting into this game.

    I though maybe the mechanics were still undecided (still pre-alpha) and this was a question about how we think it should work.  That's my fault for reading too much into it. Right Answer, Wrong Question.  Apologies.


    This post was edited by DakodaFarstrider at August 27, 2018 10:57 PM PDT
    • 111 posts
    August 28, 2018 12:46 AM PDT

    what will happen:

    - before the raidleaders could make an agreement who gets the first try, a DPS will pull the raidmob...(probably a ranger....).

    - mages send in their pets, wizards starts to nuke

    - heals try to keep their dps alive

    - before alle the DPS get slaughtered, tank goes in

    - second raidforce will join and a dps race will start for the fat loot

    - flamewar will start

    /end of story :)

     

    • 134 posts
    August 28, 2018 12:47 AM PDT

    spryler said:

    DakodaFarstrider said:

     

    I'm confused as to why this question was posed.  As several people who have already responded pointed out, the current plan we have been told to expect is that credit for a kill will belong to those that deal the most damage.  

    If this design decision is still up for debate (it is still pre-alpha) then this question holds much more validity, and there are several answers here that spell out the pros and cons of the two most common solutions to kill credit. (I particularly liked the post by oneADseven)

    But if that is still the plan, then the answer seems as if it will almost certainly be a dps race, which in my humble opinion is in direct opposition to the goal of making the game about the journey rather than the endgame.  

    As others have stated, the dps race leads to a few select guilds racing to max level ahead of as many as possible and once there establishing their dominance as a/the competitive raid force because, lets face it, once you are on top, it's pretty easy to stay there. Expansion after expansion after expansion. 

    The counter argument, that just getting max level asap will leave them ill-equiped to successfully raid, is merely a promotional talking point until proven, since that head start (max level) is significant and is exactly why every game out there suffers the exact same fate; race to max level, raid, get bored waiting for additional content, lose some raiders, recruit/poach replacements shortly before the expansion launches, rinse/repeat upon release. 

    I'm not suggesting it is right or wrong, I participated in such guilds when I was younger and had the time to invest in a competitive raiding guild with an 'on-watch' rotation of people camping spawn points, call chains, and a 20 minute recall requirement.  It was exciting, for sure, but I'm older now and those days are behind me.  I'm not against letting those that want to play that way have their turn at it, I just know that I won't be competing against them.

    I'm looking forward to the promise of that journey VR is selling.  

     

    I've never thought about it like that, but you're 100% correct.  Having open world contested raid bosses with no mechanisms to prevent griefing/zerging/shenanigans would promote racing to max level.  The exact opposite of "the journey matters".  Some guilds will race to max level to control the resources.  Others will feel pressured to do the same, lest they get shut out of content.

     

    In a game like Pantheon I am pretty sure that race is a marathon so it takes a long time no matter what. If you try to sprint the whole thing your heart will explode from over exerting yourself.

    • 42 posts
    August 28, 2018 12:48 AM PDT

    I posted this in the reddit thread first but i wanted to add it here as well.

    I guess this is a question we should be asking VR not the other way around, because it dictates in a large way what direction they are swinging in regard to their raid scene and who will be looking forward to it.

    The community clearly has all types of players, on one end those that want less/no rules where anything goes and the winner is the winner regardless of how they got there. Then there are those on the other end who want there to be enforced rules that allow for some form claim be placed on a target at which point they can try and finish the fight uncontested. The former makes the game elitist (and arguably unfriendly) and leaves the casual player out of the raid scene and the latter is leaning toward instancing.

    I suggest the need to offer content to all these groups.

    1: Have world bosses that are zerg friendly, that give out faction to all but loot to the highest DPS raid. Have them accessible so everyone can come and take a swing. Make it so that this faction unlocks some useful items that let everyone benefit after they have been present X times. Social events!

    2a: Have raid targets that are deep in dungeons that have semi random timers and let the best guild win.

    2b: Have raid targets that banish anyone not part of the FTE guild.

    3: Have targets that can be triggered by doing a pre-quest which is a time sink or money sinks (need a way to pull money out of the economy just make it cost X to spawn your own version of Y raid mob). Have these spawn in locked rooms and be tied to the guild that triggered them so casual raiders can get loot at their rate.

    But most of all make your rules enforced by the game mechanics so GM’s don’t need to come lawyer quest every other day. If your mechanics don’t support your rules you are asking for a bad outcome. GM’s should be running cool events and helping players recover from glitches not acting as judges on raid loot.