I was just thinking about what zone lines should look like.
Personally I feel like we are beyond the days of an invisible line being there, causing you to zone over and I feel like there should be some sort of physical representation of the zone line and am curious what people think zone lines should look like?
I feel the World of Warcraft approach (portal) is silly looking, so I'd like to propose something a little less intrusive, but fitting in the world along the lines of a shimmering veil, maybe blue in color and very transparent. Think of the effect in Super Mario 64 when you jump into a painting as people go through it. It would be a lot more fitting than an invisible line, especially if some zone lines are just HUGE open spaces. Obviously you should be able to see past the zone line and it goes on like normal.
Thoughts?
Examples of Zone Lines in games :
Everquest
World of Warcraft
FFXIV Zone Line (right side of screen, the red dotted line)
Competely invisable.
Of course some zones, you'll know where the entrance is because it's a cave, or a valley pass, but beyone the zone line it should look like the environment keeps going on.
Now, as for the zone loading screen, I've suggested before, but they should have an environment appropreate gif. It's be neat to see a cycle of, ehh, 4 or 5 gifs of a generic group or solo adventurer walking into the next part of the zone. Seeing a gif would, I believe, maintain the emersion of zoning. So many easter eggs could come from these gif loading screens too. They could change with the season, or be updated with holidays. So many possibilities.
I'm a fan of adding zone lines to logical places that won't completely disrupt immersion and won't be a sudden unexpected and undesired suprise (see Karanas and Commons). I like the idea of zoning at doorways and when not possible, offering obvious signs that a zone is going to occur such as a change in the scenery, etc.
Zone lines shouldn't ever be just 1 thing. They should be appropriate for the design and environment of the zone. So if you have a Karana type environement then having a large yet invisible zoneline makes sense while if you're heading into a dungeon perhaps a door or other entryway is more apporpriate.
DynamiteFizzlebum said:I'm a fan of adding zone lines to logical places that won't completely disrupt immersion and won't be a sudden unexpected and undesired suprise (see Karanas and Commons). I like the idea of zoning at doorways and when not possible, offering obvious signs that a zone is going to occur such as a change in the scenery, etc.
So how would you have designed the connection between the vairous Karanas? The East Karana/North Karana had the bridge as did North Karana/South Karana yet you didn't need to use the bridges. A change of scenery wouldn't really work because the zones are all visually identical..big open flat plains.
Id rather it just be a portal that you click into. Would make making maps that much less a hassle. A portal can be a tree, a bush, a rock you open, a marking on the ground. OR simple walking into a tight narrow pass.
When i cross the borders in Real Life i have many open areas to cross yet we are portaled into a border crossings of some sort.
Maybe pay the bridge keeper 1 gp to cross?, take the boat across from an undead spectre?
I dunno lots of cool options one can design.
Only reason to have a loading screen or zone is for an instanced situation. Since Pantheon isn't having instanced dungeons I wouldn't think they will need loading screens.
I'm sure that VS is working out the kinks in their memory streaming system. As you saw in the last CohhCarnage video where they are still getting the day/night cycle between zone lines dialed in. Once they do, it will be a seemless time cycle between zones and then a seemless world where only the NPC's will have to adhere to the zone line. :D...I hope
edit:
That said, I found this. So maybe they won't have this tech. Surprising since unity supports it.
From the FAQ:
(20.0) "Pantheon is a zone-based game as opposed to having a truly seamless world, although this could change as technology and tools evolve, either before or after launch. Regardless, however, our current technology and tools allow us to create truly vast, rich, and detailed zones. Players will not be running frequently into zone borders. Our larger zones also allow us to create long vistas and views, and in almost all cases, if you can see a location you can travel there.
We have lots of overworld adventure areas and overland dungeons where players don’t need to zone into but there may be several groups hunting there. Even in underworld and dedicated dungeon areas, they will be open world as well. It is all part of the shared experience we really want to capture."
RL borders work. Rivers, bridges over chasms, shorelines of lakes, mountain passes with gatehouses and guards. Signs, totems, markers, plateau drop-offs for land to land boundries.
I am just not recalling many or any portals in vanilla WoW; (possibly the things people think of when comparing vanilla (challenging) WoW vs later expansion solo to level cap WoW).
Access to airships/floating cities can be flying gryphon public transit mounts, but, I think portals would be appropriate for this instance as everything about people in the sky is magical.
Underwater zones can be a huge basin, a mountain underwater, change in water coloration, murky water change, ocean vents acting as signposts, or even a magical dome shield.
I just am not sure portals are all that needed when so many other options can be used. Save them for later to access out-of-phase rooms or libraries, the rare instances that may be restricted/keyed access, or future needs to smooth out possible lore vs game conflicts.
i can tell you what i don't want. i don't want to be running down a stone path with snow scattered about and all of a sudden "LOADING, PLEASE WAIT" and boom, now i see Lava pits and Fire or a sunny desert.
i have Always hated that. "look, i'm in a pretty forest with birds and cuddley bears" ...loading... "look, i am in a desert with mummies and gators"
transitional graphics should indicate a change before it happens.
It totally depends on how you look at zone lines and what they are there for.
Of course, they are for technical reasons, or at least they were. VR would have to talk about that.
I like to think of zones as being like movie transitions. Sometimes you go through a tight pass in a valley, and yes, you change from grassy to snowy, because they zone line represented travelling through a mountain pass to another valley and, yes, another micro-climate.
I like to think of zones as deliniation of cultures and/or habitats. If you run out of the Halnir's Cave zone then it represents climbing up out through a tunnel system up into the daylight and the reason the Ratkins and spiders chasing you gave up is they don't like to leave the caves and it was quite a long way from their home.
There's lots of good reasons for zones.
Dhampir said: Personally I feel like we are beyond the days of an invisible line being there, causing you to zone over and I feel like there should be some sort of physical representation of the zone line and am curious what people think zone lines should look like?
He's talking about a visual indication of the actual spot where you start loading into the next zone. It's obvious that the terrain will be different depending on the place, and the scenery will need to adjust as you move into one climate to another. I do agree that it would be nice to have a visual reference of where exactly that line is that once crossed you start loading. It's needs to be something noticable regardless of the type of ground you are walking on as you reach it, yet not be something that seems totally out of place or 'in your face' like the WoW portals.
I always disliked the EQ way of not having any visual. "You just run down this tunnel until you start loading... you won't know when or where until you reach it and start loading."
On a side note... in EQ sometimes if you had a lagspike as you were about to cross the zonline, you could actually run past it and not zone. There were actually some easter eggs where you could run around a corner behind a zoneline and there would be a big picture of one of the Dev's cat on the wall.
I would like some kind of indicator where a zone line is. I don't know if I want a huge wall like the blue wall in PUBG or something more subtle like an icon indicator that pops up.
I guess we would have to have a few options tested to see what players like most.
I preffer the invisible zone lines it makes the world feel more connected because you never know (at least the first time) when and where a zone ends, if you have a visual tell indicating "this is the zone line" then the world no longer feels like a connected space, it's just a bunch of zones with portals. It also looks better being able to see into the next zone.
I don't want "plasma" walls or anything (except where fitting into the zone concept).
But I would also like some sort of indicator in some places, even it's a natural feature, but something to giv you direction. Can't tell you how many times I'd zone into a place in EQ where the zone was inside a hall or a cave with turns in either direction, essentially leaving you unsure if you're facing the zone wall or away, only to hit the wall and zone yourself right back out. :P
But in general, I prefer a seemless look to the environment, even if there is an invisible barrier.
I'm fine with anything that doesn't break immersion with still looking like "going to a different place". EQ's were fine for me even if sometimes you didn't remember if you were facing the entrance or exit.
Small dots or big portals both break the sense of travelling, but I think there are other subtle ways to do it : Blurry landscape as an example, if subtle enough, can hint you for a zoneline withouth making it obvious or game breaking.
I'm also very against "zoning shortcutting travels", if I must take a tunnel under the mountain to cross it, I want to actually travel throught the mountain itself by this tunnel and not "appear magically on the other side" like it became a fashion in newer mmos.
I think zonelines should seem intuitive and invisible. I also think zonlines should be somewhat safe. When you enter into a city through the city gate the game just loads the city into a new zone. When you walk through an entry archway of a castle/building you zone into the castle zone. When you walk into a dark cave you zone into the cave zone. I think there are also moments where a "Portal" could be a zoneline, but i prefer a portal you can walk into. Think POF in EQ1.
Zonelines should be an intuitive somewhat safe area that leads towards a location. So imagine Tower of Wreckless Magician. I would imagine a Moat and once you cross the drawbridge you enter into the lowest zone. Once you hit the top of the stairs or hit a zone trigger in a magical elevator you zone into the new level.
Zonelines should seem intuitive and somewhat staged. The bridge to South Karana is actually a good example. You should expect an area with more content to be a new zone like cities or structures like castles or towers. or possibly bridges. Say if you were trying to zone into the ocean there should be sort of a sheltered harbor feel and once you pass through a gap in an area you would zone into the ocean zone.
That sort of thing.
Vandraad said:Zone lines shouldn't ever be just 1 thing. They should be appropriate for the design and environment of the zone. So if you have a Karana type environement then having a large yet invisible zoneline makes sense while if you're heading into a dungeon perhaps a door or other entryway is more apporpriate.
DynamiteFizzlebum said:I'm a fan of adding zone lines to logical places that won't completely disrupt immersion and won't be a sudden unexpected and undesired suprise (see Karanas and Commons). I like the idea of zoning at doorways and when not possible, offering obvious signs that a zone is going to occur such as a change in the scenery, etc.
So how would you have designed the connection between the vairous Karanas? The East Karana/North Karana had the bridge as did North Karana/South Karana yet you didn't need to use the bridges. A change of scenery wouldn't really work because the zones are all visually identical..big open flat plains.
In this game the northern karana's would be one singular zone. Southern Karana would be its own zone once you cross the bridge. I disliked the random zonewide zonelines. I liked mountain passes and other visual cues. I would also make the river really wide and dangerous so that you cant cross it even if you tried.
Other than entering caves or buildings or the like where the zone line would obviously be a door or cave mouth - why not have zone lines invisible?
Wouldn't VR prefer the whole world to be seamless with no transitions or delays? OK we aren't there yet - but why should I see a glowing area ahead of me because I am going between zones?
I couldn't possibly agree more with Flapp. If I am in woods and see woods it is simply ridiculous for me to "zone" into a desert. When I zone I should be in woods. If the woods end and there are plains or a desert ahead I should be able to see such in the distance unless my view is blocked by the trees. When I am near the edge of a "zone" I should be able to see the desert or plain ahead of me. And barring logical magical effects climates simply do not change dramatically between one step and the next they change very gradually. Walking into a zone line should never affect climate immediately - not in landscape.
If a cataclysm puts the sahara desert next to the russian steppes yes for a few days there will be a demarcation line - and truly unholy storms. A year later there will be no sharp demarkation.
We saw a few zone transitions when groups entered into black rose keep in the streams. This is pretty much what i was expecting. They walk up to the obvious entrance to the area and there was a safe zone entry and blackrose was an entirely different zone from the Avendars pass zone. Even though it was fully viewable but not completey loaded into the zone. I think the old cohh stream when they zoned into the tower showed the zoneline but i need to rewatch and see...no nm they preloaded him in. sorry
Bronsun said:Only reason to have a loading screen or zone is for an instanced situation. Since Pantheon isn't having instanced dungeons I wouldn't think they will need loading screens.
I'm sure that VS is working out the kinks in their memory streaming system. As you saw in the last CohhCarnage video where they are still getting the day/night cycle between zone lines dialed in. Once they do, it will be a seemless time cycle between zones and then a seemless world where only the NPC's will have to adhere to the zone line. :D...I hope
edit:
That said, I found this. So maybe they won't have this tech. Surprising since unity supports it.
To quote Brad/Aradune:
...Bragging about world size, or creating a truly seamless world, or using CPU and memory to create virtual mega-cities is all at odds with our objectives. I haven't even talked about zones vs. a 'seamless world' yet, and how being able to expand an area that needs expanding by simply inserting additional zones is critical to having sufficient content, and content *where* you want and need it. Is it less immersive? To some, sure, and I understand the argument well (remember that one of our chief goals with VG was to make it zoneless). But the negatives outweigh the positives in such a big way. Having to work with an outdoor world whose size is determined prior to all of the metrics and information gathered even into late beta is extremely challenging and arguably dangerous -- playing with fire, so to speak. How do you re-size an area dynamically like you can do with zones if the outside world has already, probably some time ago, been stitched together into a 'seamless' grid of 'chunks'?
Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/184/community-content-and-alternate-rulesets