Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How strong should enemies be?

    • 75 posts
    August 15, 2018 6:22 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    bigdogchris said:

    I'm not asking for it to be changed. I just am curious to why MMO's (not just Pantheon) are designed this way. There must be something us outsiders are not seeing.

     

    A "level" 20 orc isn't the same as a level 20 player. When an npc is listed as "level" 20 what it is really saying is that the npc/mob has a strength level intended to be challenging to a level 20 group (or player for many modern solo MMOs). While yes it is listed as a level 20 orc, the orc isn't really level 20 in the same way a player is level 20. 

    I tried explaining that to people before too, Iksar. Level on a mob is not an indicator of their individual threat. Hopefully the way you explained it made it easier for people to understand.

    • 75 posts
    August 15, 2018 6:39 PM PDT

    Soloable mobs also leads to silly exp gains like going afk overnight with a pet out for free exp. It may take a pair of pet classes if a single pet can't kill the solo mobs by themselves.

    • 1281 posts
    August 15, 2018 6:46 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Iksar said:

    bigdogchris said:

    I'm not asking for it to be changed. I just am curious to why MMO's (not just Pantheon) are designed this way. There must be something us outsiders are not seeing.

     

    A "level" 20 orc isn't the same as a level 20 player. When an npc is listed as "level" 20 what it is really saying is that the npc/mob has a strength level intended to be challenging to a level 20 group (or player for many modern solo MMOs). While yes it is listed as a level 20 orc, the orc isn't really level 20 in the same way a player is level 20. 

    I tried explaining that to people before too, Iksar. Level on a mob is not an indicator of their individual threat. Hopefully the way you explained it made it easier for people to understand.

    I know you guys think you're being really smart, but that doesn't actually answer the question especially when you factor in raid enemies and different raid sizes, etc.

    You're also not considering that in some games, like we gave examples of EQ, the higher level you go up, the lower "level" npc you fight compared to your level of the group. At the very least, it wildly varies.

    It seems like a ton of arbitrary numbers being thrown around when you could just make enemies scale like players.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at August 15, 2018 6:47 PM PDT
    • 752 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:11 PM PDT
    I don’t want to see easy mode. I want mobs to have an advantage over a solo player. If anything i want dark blues to be pound for pound hit for hit coin toss battle against a tank class. Even cons win the battle. I want groups from level 1 up.
    • 245 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:35 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Iksar said:

    bigdogchris said:

    I'm not asking for it to be changed. I just am curious to why MMO's (not just Pantheon) are designed this way. There must be something us outsiders are not seeing.

     

    A "level" 20 orc isn't the same as a level 20 player. When an npc is listed as "level" 20 what it is really saying is that the npc/mob has a strength level intended to be challenging to a level 20 group (or player for many modern solo MMOs). While yes it is listed as a level 20 orc, the orc isn't really level 20 in the same way a player is level 20. 

    I tried explaining that to people before too, Iksar. Level on a mob is not an indicator of their individual threat. Hopefully the way you explained it made it easier for people to understand.

    I know you guys think you're being really smart, but that doesn't actually answer the question especially when you factor in raid enemies and different raid sizes, etc.

    You're also not considering that in some games, like we gave examples of EQ, the higher level you go up, the lower "level" npc you fight compared to your level of the group. At the very least, it wildly varies.

    It seems like a ton of arbitrary numbers being thrown around when you could just make enemies scale like players.

     

    But this game isn't being designed that way.

     

    It's a group focused game where /con indicates the challenge to a group rather than an individual and if you want to try and solo in a group area then you need to try and pick on level lower group mobs as a solo player or use a class that can outplay a certain type of enemy through snare kiting etc.

    If you want a game where the level of mobs is inidicative of a solo challenge and mobs scale with the player then you want a different MMO, more like WoW, GW2, ESO or these other games where a player can take on one to six enemies and AoE cleave through everything alone.

    It really sounds like you want the type of gameplay and mechanics that Pantheon isn't fundamentally being designed around. You're asking for the opposite of the design document and the current vision.

    • 1714 posts
    August 15, 2018 7:43 PM PDT

    Additionally, imo, there should never be such a thing as a solo mob vs a group mob or even a raid mob. Create content with varying degrees of difficulty depending on a number of factors and let the players sort it out. 

    • 19 posts
    August 15, 2018 9:24 PM PDT

    kreed99 said: I don’t want to see easy mode. I want mobs to have an advantage over a solo player. If anything i want dark blues to be pound for pound hit for hit coin toss battle against a tank class. Even cons win the battle. I want groups from level 1 up.

    This seems kind of insane to me. Was EQ like this?

    • 198 posts
    August 15, 2018 10:01 PM PDT

    Jhey said:

    This seems kind of insane to me. Was EQ like this?

     

    Not entirely.  Some classes were able to solo in certain areas.

    • 107 posts
    August 15, 2018 11:02 PM PDT

    If it takes a group to kill a trash mob, what the hell are we doing leaving towns? We have the skill and ability of a common conscript at best. How would we ever beat a named? With a full raid?

    Trash mobs should be weaker than pcs, albeit slightly. (Realistically we should be about as tough as an elite or tier 2 mob.) But god I hope they don't just make NPCs superpowered idiots as I often see requested. If they want them to be on par with pcs they should not do it by making them hit twice as hard and take half as much damage. They should do it by giving them abilities to break our spell casting/long attacks as well as have have spell casting/long attacks we must break. 

    I would rather fight 1000 fights I had to pay attention to then 500 that I can macro the fight but because the mob has 20,000 health it is gonna take an hour.

     

    • 67 posts
    August 15, 2018 11:41 PM PDT

    alephen said:

    If it takes a group to kill a trash mob, what the hell are we doing leaving towns? We have the skill and ability of a common conscript at best. How would we ever beat a named? With a full raid?

    Trash mobs should be weaker than pcs, albeit slightly. (Realistically we should be about as tough as an elite or tier 2 mob.) But god I hope they don't just make NPCs superpowered idiots as I often see requested. If they want them to be on par with pcs they should not do it by making them hit twice as hard and take half as much damage. They should do it by giving them abilities to break our spell casting/long attacks as well as have have spell casting/long attacks we must break. 

    I would rather fight 1000 fights I had to pay attention to then 500 that I can macro the fight but because the mob has 20,000 health it is gonna take an hour.

     

    Your approach (making mobs more challenging by interrupting and bein interrupted) is still possible, even if the mobs are hitting harder and having more hp then an average PC. However, it will not keep the whole group busy (especially the healer and CC), and that is necessary if you want to make crowd controll meaningful. To do so, every mob, or at least the majority of mobs have to be a real thread, meaning an uncontrolled add can cause a wipe or at least kill a groupmember. 

    As I understand the intention of the developers, CC will be meaningful, and in dungeons it is required. I dont see any other way to reach that goal then to make mobs hitting harder and lasting longer by giving them more HP. A mob that is similar to a PC of the same level can be burned by heavy burst dmg, so it is not a real thread.

    But please correct me if I misinterpreted the intention of the devs, or if you have another way to reach that goal. I love new ideas :) 

    • 1785 posts
    August 16, 2018 12:00 AM PDT

    One of the resaons this topic is so confusing is that every game approaches it slightly differently.

    To figure out what's right for Pantheon, there's a few things that we probably need to understand from the devs:

    1) How much will a player's level matter in terms of their combat potential, compared to attributes, equipment, skills, and spells?  For example, does a higher level guarantee a higher chance to hit an enemy or lower chance of a resist, or is that solely a function of other aspects of the character besides the level?

    2) How does tuning work for mobs or encounters that are designed for groups?  Is it just an increase in base hp or damage, or are there additional abilities that are "unlocked" when a monster is sized for a group of 6 vs, for example, a group of 4?

    3) In terms of overland (not dungeon) zone design, is there an expectation of the ratio of soloable or small-group encounters to full-group encounters?  Will players have a way to tell these apart, or will it just be down to luck, observation, and experience?

    4) Given the desire to ensure that CC is meaningful, is scaling an encounter to be "group-sized" a function of the mob's numbers alone? (hp, damage dealt, etc) or is it a function of the number and placement of mobs in the area?  Or is it both?

     

    I think until we know more about the answers to these questions, specifically for Pantheon, this topic will always remain somewhat ambiguous.

    Personally what I want to see is for every encounter in the game to be challenging to a level-appropriate player.  I want people to respect both the environment as well as the monsters they face.  If we reach a situation (for example) where players are taking "blue" and "white" cons for granted, and only really respect/fear "yellows" and "reds", then something is out of whack with either player power, or mob tuning, or both.  This would be true whether we're talking about solo, small group, or full group.

    Also, just for the record - I absolutely hate the term "trash mob".  If a mob doesn't add anything to the experience to the point where the majority of playes only view it as a speedbump in the way of getting to whatever named kill they're after, it doesn't deserve to be in the game and some designer wasted their time.  Ideally, every single encounter should be challenging *and* rewarding - whether that's with the boss, or his minions.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want a game that's all about the named/boss fights - but I don't want a game where we're wading through seas of "trash" without really caring about it in order to get to the fun part.  Some of my best memories of EQ and other games were not the named mobs or bosses that we fought, but instead when we had really tough and engaging battles with normal opponents - the kind of thing that made us really feel like we earned the right to take a shot at the boss further in.

    • 409 posts
    August 16, 2018 3:59 AM PDT

    @Op

    Well I read your post and while there are benefits to soloing this game is mostly group content orientated and should reflect that. VR has already stated their will be solo content so you need not worry.

    Personally I disagree with your comments. Why? Because we have a bazillion solo centric mmo's out there already and loads of single player games too. So no I don't agree because it's time those of us whom like this type of group centric game to get a turn. Allowing more solo'd content also opens up to more RMT and also provides less people for the people whom want to group, to group with.


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 16, 2018 4:01 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    August 16, 2018 6:59 AM PDT

    Nimryl you are correct that Pantheon needs to stay group-focused. 

    Solo should be there for when we cannot group for any of many reasons but it shouldn't be the core of the game by any means.

    Some of us do not want solo at all, or want it so limited that it is essentially useless. That is the windmill I often take up lance to tilt against.

    • 752 posts
    August 16, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    Jhey said:

    kreed99 said: I don’t want to see easy mode. I want mobs to have an advantage over a solo player. If anything i want dark blues to be pound for pound hit for hit coin toss battle against a tank class. Even cons win the battle. I want groups from level 1 up.

    This seems kind of insane to me. Was EQ like this?

    Early EQ without decent gear you could solo some even con junk mobs. It got better as you got more weapons and armor and skillups. What i am getting at is light to dark blues should be iffy for solo fights. Even cons and above you should need at least 1-2 other people or a full group. 

    • 60 posts
    August 16, 2018 11:24 AM PDT

    TLDR White(even) cons should be soloable if you have full set of gear on that level of content and you blow your entire mana bar and/or skill cooldowns soloing the enemy

    • 409 posts
    August 16, 2018 1:13 PM PDT

    Jhey said:

    This seems kind of insane to me. Was EQ like this?

    Nope. Even for the classes that solo'd great (NEC, ENC), their "greatness" was based on having a toolkit that in the hands of a skilled player could turn difficult spawns into steady, easy single pulls in a solid, dependable and predictable rotation. At the end of the day, they were still killing single, low/light blue mobs, just in places where only they could break the camp into single mob encounters. Soloing is just not that rewarding in EQ1 for the vast maority of the playerbase. You can grind coin and exp well enough, but 80-90% of the game is designed around groups doing the content.

    • 123 posts
    August 16, 2018 1:22 PM PDT

    Basically, if no one is able to solo a green conned mob, I'm perfectly fine with that (and I can say that I'd like that).

     

    • 209 posts
    August 16, 2018 1:32 PM PDT

    Nimryl said:

    @Op

    Well I read your post and while there are benefits to soloing this game is mostly group content orientated and should reflect that. VR has already stated their will be solo content so you need not worry.

    Personally I disagree with your comments. Why? Because we have a bazillion solo centric mmo's out there already and loads of single player games too. So no I don't agree because it's time those of us whom like this type of group centric game to get a turn. Allowing more solo'd content also opens up to more RMT and also provides less people for the people whom want to group, to group with.

    I'm actually pretty much in the same boat you are here. I definitely don't want a solo-centric game, and of course we all know that Pantheon won't be one. EQOA was actually the only old school group-centered game that I played before things got bad with WoW and beyond. I remember it fondly for all the same reasons most people here liked EQ--the need to group, challenge, lack of hand-holding, etc. Even though it was possible to solo a white con in that game, it was literallly not possible to progress in the game without a group due to the incredibly slow rate of xp gain, so the core game was still entirely group-centered. But if a person wanted to take a break from grinding and farm an area of white cons for loot of his/her level, that was possible too...but the catch was that the loot drops and xp would be so glacially slow that it was always far more beneficial (not to mention safer) to be in a group. In short, soloing was possible, but definitely not preferable. The normal mode of gameplay was always to find a group.

    While I'd love to see a similar system again, I'll be the first to acknowledge that it may not be what the devs are shooting for, and may not even be possible in a game like Pantheon, and that's fine if that's the case. But I'm definitely not looking for a solo-centric game...just a group game where limited soloing is still an option at times.

    • 209 posts
    August 16, 2018 1:55 PM PDT

    The question of con colors is interesting to me. I didn't realize that in EQ con colors reflected the strength of an enemy relative to a full group; in EQOA, con colors reflected an enemy's strength against an individual player and full groups of 4 usually sought out enemies 2 or 3 levels above them (and tried their best to take them on one at a time) for that reason. The difference seems mostly a question of perspective except when one considers the loot that enemies drop. Though I may be in the minority, I would like the enemies I am able to solo to drop loot of approximately my level (the catch being that soloing enemies of my level should be very hard work and take loads of time, making it not nearly as efficient as grouping). If I'm only able to solo a green or light blue, and that enemy drops loot of its own level, it will always be too low for me, making it mostly meaningless. That's why, if possible, I would be in favor of a system where con colors correspond to the individual player's level rather than that of the group. But once again, I realize this may not jive with the foundation that has already been laid for Pantheon.

    • 752 posts
    August 16, 2018 2:20 PM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    The question of con colors is interesting to me. I didn't realize that in EQ con colors reflected the strength of an enemy relative to a full group; in EQOA, con colors reflected an enemy's strength against an individual player and full groups of 4 usually sought out enemies 2 or 3 levels above them (and tried their best to take them on one at a time) for that reason. The difference seems mostly a question of perspective except when one considers the loot that enemies drop. Though I may be in the minority, I would like the enemies I am able to solo to drop loot of approximately my level (the catch being that soloing enemies of my level should be very hard work and take loads of time, making it not nearly as efficient as grouping). If I'm only able to solo a green or light blue, and that enemy drops loot of its own level, it will always be too low for me, making it mostly meaningless. That's why, if possible, I would be in favor of a system where con colors correspond to the individual player's level rather than that of the group. But once again, I realize this may not jive with the foundation that has already been laid for Pantheon.

    It reflected the level of the enemy based on your level. It wasnt based on the group. There might have been a miscommunication.


    This post was edited by kreed99 at August 16, 2018 2:22 PM PDT
    • 752 posts
    August 16, 2018 2:26 PM PDT

    Khendall said:

    Basically, if no one is able to solo a green conned mob, I'm perfectly fine with that (and I can say that I'd like that).

     

     

    Within reason i agree. I still want to be able to solo once i outlevel stuff. 

    • 2752 posts
    August 16, 2018 4:14 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

     

    I know you guys think you're being really smart, but that doesn't actually answer the question especially when you factor in raid enemies and different raid sizes, etc.

    You're also not considering that in some games, like we gave examples of EQ, the higher level you go up, the lower "level" npc you fight compared to your level of the group. At the very least, it wildly varies.

    It seems like a ton of arbitrary numbers being thrown around when you could just make enemies scale like players.

    Why doesn't it answer the question? Raid bosses were red to level 50 players and intended to be taken on by multiple groups, of course they fall outside of the group con since EQ wasn't built with raiding in mind as raiding didn't really exist as a thing yet. 

    As for higher levels fighting lower "level" npcs, sure sometimes that happened but it was more for efficiency than necessity as high level groups could still take on yellows and occasional reds (depending on the group/skill). White = a challenge, yellow = greater challenge, red = ???? challenge.

     

    Making enemies scale like players would make things far more confusing. It's much easier to be level 20 knowing you should be hunting "level" 20 creatures than it is to try to figure out if you should be hunting level 25 or 30 or 35 creatures. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at August 16, 2018 4:16 PM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    August 17, 2018 8:29 AM PDT
    My personal opinion I don't think anyone should be be to combat a even con mob without extreme skill and a bit of good luck. Reason for this is becuase it does make it a group centric. Now I understand the wanting to solo, either it by not a lot of game time, worked late, simply just exhausted or whatever. But soloing mobs lower level than you doesn't make me feel any less epic, it's my character, and I'm going to love him as he journeys across all of Terminus. Plus I'm used to not soloing even cons playing eq, even when I know I can kill them but don't feel like doing so due to time spent killing them doesn't equal to killing light blues by the dozen.
    • 752 posts
    August 17, 2018 11:11 AM PDT

    When i did solo/duo in EQ1 it was on my shammy cause well lets face it monk/rogue were not very good at soloing proper exp mobs. I always avoided even or overcon because as Riahuf22 has stated it took a lot more time to kill them and then there was more downtime to regain the mana/health. I stuck with dark blues and i tried to root/rot efficiently. My friend that would join me sometimes would always pull higher level mobs and waste all hers and mine mana. It drove me nuts. I liked to chain pull blues so i literally was always killing something instead of wasting time doing the canni dance or sitting and waiting for my friend to med. 

    That being said, even with my past soloing experience, i want it to be hard to solo. I know i used to do it alot, but im done with all that. I want groups. The only time i want to solo is if i am fighting greens looking for a certain item. I miss PuGs. I miss the drama and having an active community. 

    • 178 posts
    August 18, 2018 11:07 PM PDT

    No, 

    the "at level" normal enemy, should be little less strong than three players.

    the "at level" minion enemy, should be little less strong than player. (but comes in packs of three at least)

    the "at level" elite enemy should be little less strong than six players.

     

    normal connected mob spawn:

    two minion packs. (requires lots of CC and aoe tanking or the squishies are gone)

    regular mob and minion pack. (requires lots of CC and aoe tanking or the squishies are gone)

    two regular mobs. (easiest encounter, as requires one CC only)

    elite mob and minion pack for extra treasure :).

     

     

    otherwise there is absolutely no point in releasing this game, as people will solo away all the content.

     

    if you want to solo, you will have to prey on mobs four-five levels below you.