Something I’ve noticed consistently in the streams is how strong the enemies seem to be compared to the player characters. Battles usually seem to be won because the groups find a way to fight one enemy at a time, piling onto it six against one. It seems clear that any one member of the group wouldn’t stand much of a chance against a single enemy of similar level on his/her own. While we all know that Pantheon is meant to be a group-centered game (and also that there is still a great deal of tuning to be done before launch), I wanted to share my own opinion that I really hope to see enemy power toned down a bit by launch. In my view, each individual enemy should be about as strong as a player character of the same level. I have a couple reasons for this:
1. It allows for at least a bit of soloing.
Even if most content isn’t supposed to be soloed, I feel there should always be a certain amount that a solo player can do on his/her own. Having enemies on a power scale that more or less mirrors that of the player (a level 30 orc being about as strong as a decently geared level 30 player, for instance) allows the solo player to kill the odd mob here and there without having to call in reinforcements. Promoting grouping and socialization is very important, but I feel a little bit of self-sufficiency is important as well.
2. It makes your character feel more epic.
For me, knowing that my character is as strong as an enemy of the same level makes it feel like my character is a powerful adventurer in his own right. Even if the vast majority of his career will be spent grouping with others, it’s still nice to know that he can at least hold his own against a single supposedly equal adversary. Where is the satisfaction in working to build your power through levels, gear, and abilities if you’re always lagging behind a lowly goblin scout of the same level? Again, strength in numbers is great, but I feel there is something to be said for personal strength as well.
Now, I really want to emphasize that just because I’d like to see enemy strength toned down a bit, that does not mean that I’m advocating for a WoW-esque easy mode experience where a player can blow through legions of baddies solo. Like most of us, I absolutely want the game to encourage grouping, and for most of the content to require it. But I would personally rather see the challenge in combat come from a slightly larger number of equal-strength enemies than from a smaller number of pound-for-pound superior enemies. This was how it worked in EQOA (I never actually played the original EQ), and it was the best combat system of any game I’ve played. In EQOA, a player could usually expect to be able to solo a white con (same level) opponent, though they might lose a large chunk of their life in the process and need to rest and eat to regenerate health and mana afterward. It was definitely not possible to solo one enemy after another with any sort of speed, and grinding xp was always done in a group because of this. Also, getting attacked by two or more white cons at once (let alone yellow or red) would usually result in certain death, so you had to be really careful about your pulls. Dungeons and the like could only be attempted in a full group, and were still fraught with peril, as it was very easy to end up getting attacked by several enemies at once and being overwhelmed. I liked this balance a lot because it made your character seem strong while also still making grouping absolutely imperative for the vast majority of content. One big difference I do see between EQOA and Pantheon, however, is that in EQOA groups were only four people compared to Pantheon’s six. Perhaps this difference would make it difficult or impossible to balance combat in the same way. For all I know, maybe enemies have to be stronger than players in order to keep from breaking the game somehow. I can’t speak to whether or not that’s the case, but I just wanted to share my own opinions about how I would like to see enemy strength calibrated, assuming it’s possible to do it that way.
So anyway, what do you guys think about enemy strength? Do you, like me, want enemies to have roughly the same power as a player character of the same level? Or do you want them to be stronger? I’d like to hear people’s thoughts.
FFXI had a nice balance for me. I spent almost all of my MMO time there and there were pockets of enemies you could fight solo for small amounts of EXP and farming or you did camps for faster Exp and exploration. The developers have already made it clear that your character is not special, or unique or part of a chosen destiny. The path you forge is what will make your reputation and your desire to learn the game and take on risk vs reward will likely impact how well you are able to handle enemies on a solo basis. Running through a dungeon solo just won't be possible for mobs near your own strength.. the social mechanics and reality of that are just not what this game is about. However, out in the field.. with enough planning and awareness of your surroundings, I think it will be possible as long as you've put in the effort.
The White strength level mob you're describing would be even match, and that's usually no problem 1v1, even in this game probably..unless you get aggroed by more than one. You would also want to look into class choice. They have also stated that some classes will be far better at solo than others. Self healing, crowd control options and utility will play an enormous part in an ability to solo stronger enemies and thus makes their tennet of class choice and even racial choices being an impactful gaming experience decision.
Based on what I've read and interviews thus far, if you want to pave out a way for more solo oriented experiences involving taking on equal power enemies or maybe even a bit stronger then my suggestion would be to build your game experience and specializations around that.
Gyldervane said:Do you, like me, want enemies to have roughly the same power as a player character of the same level?
Yes, it would make sense for the average enemy. Both in terms of the fantasy and the gameplay.
EDIT: In fact, no game ever does it this way, but I always thought that level should always represent base stats, divided by stat increase per level minus starting stats plus 1. If you want a stronger enemy, just increase the level but oh well.
Way too premature to call for them to tone down enemies. The fights you reference are against even level or higher level mobs in areas that are designed for groups. The problem with making even-level mobs easy to solo is that it pushes groups to fight enemies several levels above them. Then you end up having issues with spell resists. I think it's fine to expect solo players to fight lower level mobs and groups to fight even level enemies.
Mordecai said: Just personally? An even con, white, is the same level as me. Doesn’t mean my character is as strong as the NPC. Could be same level, but I have horrid gear to attempt an attack. I think NPCs are and should be stronger than a PC. At Low levels ie 1-10 an even con or yellow you should have the ‘chance’ to survive a solo engagement. But needs to be based off of the character equipment. I know it is weird to see a group of 6 fighting something that has a lower con than them and struggle. I don’t have a reason as to why that should be, but I want this game to be difficult. I want to sit with my fellows in the community to strategize to take on one or more opponents. Soloing is fun, grouping with five more players is even more fun in my own opinion.
I don't recall them struggling with Con green. The level differene of mobs in the same area is spread out, and important. Sometimes it was green, sometimes it was Orange or red, even at the same camp. I agree, and they did state gear will be of significant importance. Also, anything you're seeing in a pre-alpha setting will of course go through massive tweaking.. so perhaps the greens were stronger than intended and things like that^^
Justin5574 said:You would also want to look into class choice. They have also stated that some classes will be far better at solo than others. Self healing, crowd control options and utility will play an enormous part in an ability to solo stronger enemies and thus makes their tennet of class choice and even racial choices being an impactful gaming experience decision.
Based on what I've read and interviews thus far, if you want to pave out a way for more solo oriented experiences involving taking on equal power enemies or maybe even a bit stronger then my suggestion would be to build your game experience and specializations around that.
solid point. If they make all classes able to solo even level mobs, then the better solo classes will be OP for solo'ing.
"In my view, each individual enemy should be about as strong as a player character of the same level"
That doesn't really work in a game like EQ or similar games where the power curve denotes grouping. If it was to go the way you describe, mobs will be fodder for groups, AEing through content enmass with little to no care or worry. This will be the single most damaging aspect of the game with regard to the gameplay or group structure that it depends on to function in a non-instanced world. It would also eliminate the need for one if not two Archetypes with regard to CC/Support and Tanks and even the 3rd DPS slot as a utility slot from a second Healer or Tank. Remember, DPS will be in short supply going by previous and current polling. PBAE DPS and two healers is all you'd need or a variation of such to take down content that's no better than a player in a solo circumstance.
I can understand your argument, but it helps to understand the reason why it's designed the way it is and why by an equal curve to a single player, a full group would steamroll content in a game that isn't set up for the monotonous mass-onslaught with little regard.
Some of the enemies the groups are fighting are yellow...or orange/red cons.
I guess yellow is fine because we are seeing mid to low lvl groups but I hope at high end most groups can't kill a yellow con mob except in rare circumstances.
I don't feel that a player should be able to solo an even con mob. Light blues are for soloing...maybe low end dark blues if you are good.
My opinion differs from the OP. I'm hoping the challenge lvl gets tuned quite a bit more difficult (at least at higher lvl). Groups should see a yellow/orange con mob and think they will probably die.
You have to realize the lvl of gameplay we are seeing in the streams is very low and it makes everything seem more challenging than it really is.
I'd honestly like to see them made even stronger than we see. How strong my character feels is mostly unimportant to me next to how good my team feels taking down dangerous prey, and it lends to a far greater sense of group strength/skill when they overcome great difficulty fighting with their backs against the wall or an uphill battle.
Players can solo some blue and light blue cons (preferably mostly only light blues) but most dark blue and above should be group stuff. Personally I would love to see the con system somehow broken into two separate versions showing con for a group and con for a player so that what is currently an "even" con would be red to a solo player, then that solo player would be taking on green/light blue that would con as dark blue/white or yellow.
I get wanting a character to feel epic but at the same time it kind of detracts from the world to me having all these "hero" player characters running around. I think there is too much focusing on level numbers with that desire. At max sure a player character can solo a bunch of seasoned creatures (level 30s and lower) which to me is impressive enough for a single person, but I'd say they wouldn't think to go toe to toe with veteran fighters of most creature/humanoid types, especially those that are physiologically/biologically and/or mentally superior to the player races.
I've said it plenty of times: If a single enemy of equal level or more is not a real threat to a group then this game will be extremely easy for almost all of the leveling content. It is extremely easy for a group to ensure that they are almost always single pulling or otherwise fighting a single enemy at a time, so that single enemy should be threatening and having more than one should generally cause a group to enter red alert unless CC is applied within short order.
Obviously like has been stated there is a lot of tuning yet to be done... I'm pretty sure that won't come until Beta.
But even then the Con is nothing more than a color and Level is nothing more than a number. In wow they have elites, they often have "under cons" in a lot of games. It's JUST a generalization. I would hope they don't make them 1to1 where the con is an absolute.
I would prefer the unpredictability.
Parascol said:If levels represent overall power, (which maybe it doesn't, but for the sake of argument), then why should a player easily kill a mob that is equal to their level? Shouldn't it be about a 50/50 chance?
In EQ, and most likely Pantheon, the con for an enemy should be for a group of adventurers. Not for solo play. I hope that there isn't much for solo players to kill honestly, or at least if there is, the exp reward and loot is terrible. The game isn't supposed to be for solo play and I don't want to see resources dedicated to it really. There are many many games out there that revolve around solo play already. I'd like the mutliplayer in MMORPG to mean something.
I've thought about this too.
It's odd that a group of level 20's have to team up to kill 1 level 20 enemy. I would expect a group of level 20's have to team up to kill 1 level 30ish, and that a level 20 character had a 50/50 chance of soloing a level 20 mob.
That said, I still want the XP/leveling rate to be based on grouping, regardless of what level the mobs are.
Maybe @Joppa can share his experiences with designing the game and why it makes more sense or is easier to face similar level enemies as a group, rather than a group facing higher level mobs as normal progression.
Keno Monster said:
Yeah exactly. A raid of level 50 characters should be taking on level 100 raid target, not a level 50 target.
bigdogchris said:Keno Monster said:Yeah exactly. A raid of level 50 characters should be taking on level 100 raid target, not a level 50 target.
Why ? I mean, in what event is that a paradox ? The fact higher mobs are tougher doesn't change the lower are weaker than you with each level you get, and that the difference in level matters much in making them much weaker than what they were when you were fighting equally. That's no paradox, but a design of harder and harder ennemies in a non linear way.
That's like asking a lvl 20 dragon in a d&d campaign to be an even fight with a level 20 character.
The only true game with such a paradox is ESO, where the whole world is scaled and in fact, the more you increase in level the weaker you are even with all new skills and passive unlocked. That makes no sense, because a fire scarab will offer you a tougher fight at lvl 50 + champion 200 and standard gear than at lvl 1 with no gear.
On a "semi logical way", stronger ennemies are more rare and prone to be exceptionnal the more you level up.
How would fighting a level 100 ennemy be more logical than a very tough 50 oponent, except in the fact you could vaguely tie the level to an abstract difficulty level, and mess completely the level difference in such skills as offense, defense ? Because, as this ennemy should be tuned to lvl 50 oponents, the closer players would grind to his level (presumably 100), the less dangerous would he be as if he was just ... level 50.
So basically it's just a comfort to tie a level to "something difficulty", that could bring a lot of trouble for no added value...
I'm fine with tough mobs, because the whole ennemies behind in level are still meaningfull, and the game should be group centric and not based on multiple mobs at the same time having the equivalent strength of each player. As we already know, the control class would take care of them and giving control mobs to "ennemies" would still result of them beeing less smart than players, with the added frustration of having players controlled. It's too easy to burst down target after target if they aren't tougher than players, while NPC with aggro list can't react.
>I hope that there isn't much for solo players to kill honestly<
Curses and damnation. You mean if I solo a mob I have to lie to it or cheat? I should be able to play just as honestly solo as when I am in a group.
More seriously, it would be a terrible mistake to equate "more group-focused than most MMOs" with "almost no room for a solo player".
Firstly it reduces the customer base drastically. Many players want a game with all the wonderful features we hope for - challenge, slow leveling, large world etc. etc. but prefer playing solo much of the time. VR would be most foolish to cut the potential customer base in half or worse. Yes Pantheon will be a niche game but the niche is old school *more* group focused not old school *only* group focused.
Secondly even many of us that prefer grouping will have days when we aren't in the mood - when we have constant interruptions - when we only have an hour and that isn't enough time to join a group and get to the content and finish it.
Grouping should be encouraged but not mandatory and there should be plenty to do when not in a group. Yes I agree soloing should be slower and give fewer rewards but it should be perfectly viable from level 1 to level-cap.
Some of my posts are directed to lobbying VR, or at least pointing out reasons why my preferred approach makes sense for them. This one is not. It doesn't need to be they have confirmed repeatedly that Pantheon will be group-focused but solo-friendly and largely for the reasons I mention.
LucasBlackstone said:Parascol said:If levels represent overall power, (which maybe it doesn't, but for the sake of argument), then why should a player easily kill a mob that is equal to their level? Shouldn't it be about a 50/50 chance?
In EQ, and most likely Pantheon, the con for an enemy should be for a group of adventurers. Not for solo play. I hope that there isn't much for solo players to kill honestly, or at least if there is, the exp reward and loot is terrible. The game isn't supposed to be for solo play and I don't want to see resources dedicated to it really. There are many many games out there that revolve around solo play already. I'd like the mutliplayer in MMORPG to mean something.
Agree. I never said I wanted to solo. Even a 50/50 chance of killing a white is too easy. I was just wondering why a mob that is equal in level should be weaker than the player. At the very least they should really only have a 50/50 chance of soloing it. But in EQ most people soloed green/yellow mobs.
The colors may change, I believe it is within the devs power to do so.
What made EQ1 interesting is the desire to group against DarkBlue monsters was emergent. Players discovered although they could down an even-conned white or higher-conned yellow monster with a group, the exp was better if you pulled Dark Blue monsters with a group. They did indicate there wil be some soloable material but the majority would need more than one.
I would like to see a slightly different con system where the old habits are done away with making Green a probably a solo win baring any suprise attacks (*blind!) LB soloable, IF you got lucky or are skilled like monster dead you at 10-15pct health tough but better with 2, and DB being more than 2 and on up. green could be the new white.