Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pointless time sinks

    • 945 posts
    August 11, 2018 6:22 PM PDT

    As I wait for the 45min boat on P99 I find myself remembering some of the silly things I hated that essentially did nothing but waste time in a poor attempt to make the game "feel realistic".  I seriously hope PRotF will not adhere to some of the more asinine time sinks of old.  Those time sinks may have worked 20 years ago, but now everyone has at least 2 monitors and likely a smart TV.  People's interests will be diverted after having to essentially be afk for more than a few minutes.  Oh... my boat is here, time to actually pay attention to the other screen long enough to board the boat and then maybe watch some Netflix during the ride.


    This post was edited by Darch at August 11, 2018 6:23 PM PDT
    • 153 posts
    August 11, 2018 6:42 PM PDT

    I disagree, and i hope there are many time sinks, this way i can do things like dishes and laundry and keep the wife happy even though im spending hours on a game.

    • 1019 posts
    August 11, 2018 6:43 PM PDT

    Is forced AFK a bad thing?  Isn't everyone talking these days about how we are all on our devices too much.  Maybe EQ was ahead of it's time by forcing people to get off the game for a few mins.

    • 1785 posts
    August 11, 2018 6:49 PM PDT

    One person's time sink is another person's opportunity to socialize and get to know their fellow adventurers.

    I think there's a sweet spot that pantheon should try to hit.  There *should* be some time spent waiting, whether that's for the next boat, for your healer to med back to full, or whatever.  The question is, how much time shoul it be?  I would say that anything more than about 20 minutes for something like a boat is probably too much.  However, anything less than 3-5 (unless you're just lucky) is probably too little.

     

    • 153 posts
    August 11, 2018 6:57 PM PDT

    I mean you could just hit up a summoner XD

    • 49 posts
    August 11, 2018 7:15 PM PDT

    In regards to boats and all other forms of travel.

    I love travel actually being meaningful and for that to be the case it must, in my opinion, actually involve a decent amount of time to get from one location to another location which is far away. It makes you stop and consider if you really want to go there right now or not. It turns trips into journeys. It helps create local communities within a gameworld. Most importantly for me, it is an important part of feeling immersed in a game world.


    This post was edited by Reichsritter at August 11, 2018 7:17 PM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    August 11, 2018 7:22 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    As I wait for the 45min boat on P99 I find myself remembering some of the silly things I hated that essentially did nothing but waste time in a poor attempt to make the game "feel realistic".  I seriously hope PRotF will not adhere to some of the more asinine time sinks of old.  Those time sinks may have worked 20 years ago, but now everyone has at least 2 monitors and likely a smart TV.  People's interests will be diverted after having to essentially be afk for more than a few minutes.  Oh... my boat is here, time to actually pay attention to the other screen long enough to board the boat and then maybe watch some Netflix during the ride.

    I respectfully disagree in more ways than one. I'll leave it at that. :)

    • 1247 posts
    August 11, 2018 7:23 PM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Is forced AFK a bad thing?  Isn't everyone talking these days about how we are all on our devices too much.  Maybe EQ was ahead of it's time by forcing people to get off the game for a few mins.

    Exactly lol. Why is your post so awesome - it made me laugh and it is so true.


    This post was edited by Syrif at August 11, 2018 7:29 PM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    August 11, 2018 7:24 PM PDT

    Riqq said:

    I disagree, and i hope there are many time sinks, this way i can do things like dishes and laundry and keep the wife happy even though im spending hours on a game.

    Couldn't agree with you more. Am so looking forward to the game that Pantheon is becoming! :D

    • 264 posts
    August 11, 2018 7:54 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    As I wait for the 45min boat on P99 I find myself remembering some of the silly things I hated that essentially did nothing but waste time in a poor attempt to make the game "feel realistic".  I seriously hope PRotF will not adhere to some of the more asinine time sinks of old.  Those time sinks may have worked 20 years ago, but now everyone has at least 2 monitors and likely a smart TV.  People's interests will be diverted after having to essentially be afk for more than a few minutes.  Oh... my boat is here, time to actually pay attention to the other screen long enough to board the boat and then maybe watch some Netflix during the ride.

     

     Whenever I see someone mention watching Netflix while playing I know the kind of player they are. I doubt Pantheon is going to have timesinks anywhere near what the original EQ had I am hoping for some of these "asinine" time sinks when they make sense and add some ambiance and potential socialising to the world. The OP may not understand what the boats were for, but the reason that type of thing was in EQ was to put great emphasis on crossing continents...to make it a big deal rather than just a loading screen from a waypoint/teleport. Not that you couldn't get teleports either mind; wizards and druids could accomodate players looking to get somewhere quick. It's important to note that the boat was NOT your only option. You chose to not pay for a port OP.

     I'm seeing a lot of posts on here lately pushing the WoW model of game design, which I think is unfortunate. You already have games like that to play and if that is your preference go play them. I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't end up another one of those failed clones.

    • 388 posts
    August 11, 2018 8:33 PM PDT

    I have to disagree as well. Boats were just ONE way to cross the Oceans. They also went thru many islands on the way to the other side of the world. 

    The boats weren't an "asinine" time sink. They were an opportunity to AFK ( you could just listen for the bell signal that the boat was there if afk) if needed. 

    The docks were located in BB noobie area, and Oasis/SRO which was lev 8-20-ish plus Giants and Spectres. It was an opportunity to stop and offer buffs at the docks. Or time to socialize with Guild, group, friends, family or whatever else you wanted to do. (laundry, grab a coke, get some food, etc etc)

    If you have some sort of disorder that requires a few minutes of down time be filled with Netflix, you likely won't play Pantheon very long anyways. You will be bored and onto the next game of the week in no time flat.  You aren't interested in being social, or chillin and actually having a conversation with someone in the game. 

    When I see someone mention watching Netflix while playing, it makes me think of grouping some lazy mage that sets his pet to Guard here and sets it on Agressive so it attacks anything that moves, and then watches netflix while the rest of the group does all the work of leveling the lazy mage. (just an example, I have also seen tanks that literally do nothing but taunt once and auto attack. You know this because when the mob turns to run, the "tank" is just standing there while casters and other group members are killing the runner.) 

    This isn't wow. I don't want it to be wow. I (and most people interested in this game) are going to Pantheon for the SOCIAL aspect. Can't be social and also watch netflix because  the boat is still 5 minutes away.


    This post was edited by Flapp at August 11, 2018 8:38 PM PDT
    • 58 posts
    August 11, 2018 8:42 PM PDT

    In EQ, I never hated the long boat wait or ride to and from Faydwer/Antonica (The boats to and from Odus never seemed to take as long).  I always took that it wasn't meant for players to hop around the world at a whim.  Travel was meaningful, and therefore (to me) something to be planned ahead of time.

    It did affect my gameplay.  I did stay put rather than spend my time traveling for some game sessions.  On the other hand, I vividly remember planning and taking those journeys across the land.  It did take a few game sessions, but a mere few of many hundreds.  I certainly didn't do it every time I played.  

    I like having to think about the game world this way.

    I was okay with it then.  I'm okay with it now.

     

    And it made druid and wizard ports so valuable!   


    This post was edited by Wyvernspur at August 12, 2018 8:50 AM PDT
    • 627 posts
    August 11, 2018 10:46 PM PDT
    I think the boat took to long, cut the max time to wait by 50% and I'm happy.
    • 245 posts
    August 11, 2018 11:13 PM PDT
    The boats were not an asanine timesink at all, they were a chance to be social with others, a gathering point, a focal point of a zone.

    It made travel meaningful and put emphasis on crossing continents. They provided other places to hop off along the way also.

    WoW has watered down travel and caters to the 3 minute attention span millennial that needs to watch Netflix on another screen while playing a game.

    This makes no sense, if someone can’t play a game and be social and needs a 2nd screen with a movie on while they half-ass a group or raid pushing as few buttons as possible then that’s just sad.

    I hope this game won’t be made in any way to cater to that type of low attention span entitled new generation lazy personality.
    • 7 posts
    August 11, 2018 11:41 PM PDT

    It makes me happy to see 9/10 responses to this thread mention the immersion/Social aspect and Meaningfull travel. Having travel set up this way the world of Terminus will be so much bigger. At some point i Imagine wizards (and maybe druids) will transport people from A to B like they did in EQ but even then i hope this involves wizard 'spires' or druid 'rings' of which there schould only be a few so you should still see a bit of the world and hopefully count on some dangers along the way. A port hub or clicking books in PoK fashion makes the world feel so much smaller and chops up a world into what feels like instances and emptyness of the world except for in the most popular locations.

    And like someone above me posted.. ask a friendly summoner to summoner you a raft and go on an adventure!

    • 363 posts
    August 11, 2018 11:47 PM PDT

    Ezrael said:  I hope this game won’t be made in any way to cater to that type of low attention span entitled new generation lazy personality.

    I wouldn't go there. Its not fair to individuals who aren't like that to point fingers at an entire generation.

    This game is bringing back the best things in MMO gaming in my opinion. Slow, meandering, epic, sandbox style, MMO adventuring. I would love for newer MMO players to come around to the thought process Pantheon is trying to reintroduce. I'm not sure how many will. So many gamers have been brainwashed by every fast paced action game that they believe every game should be like that in order to be fun. Change is hard and if they don't have the patiences for a game like this well... there are plenty of other games for them to play. Gradification will be here, it just won't be instant gradification ...all the... time.  

     

    • 258 posts
    August 12, 2018 12:14 AM PDT

    Going to have to agree with everyone else on this one as well... All of these arguments go back to World vs. Game. Do you want to play a game where every second is intense action, or do you want to be a part of a world that's immersive and gives you a sense of actual adventure? I've (for the most part) exclusively played MMORPGs since the release of Ultima Online because I crave the "world" experience. So I really don't mind the time sinks because I enjoy the ambience, and I like for there to be meaning behind my choices and actions and accomplishments.

    It's as if every MMORPG now is just geared towards people who need to have their retinas incessantly blown up with the fireworks display that is combat in order to enjoy a game. But what you end up with is a game with zero meaning, and little meaningful content. Most of these games now, I can play for 5 hours straight, be entertained by the combat/dungeon runs, and gain 5 levels, then I realize that I haven't achieved anything meaningful. My gear was handed to me, and I didn't have to work hard to get it. I don't have to carefully save money or work hard to earn it to buy gear. I don't have to worry about dying because it really doesn't matter (meaning I don't fear the content... at all...). All I have to do is fight through the appropriate level, linear, instanced dungeon with random people, or teleport from zone to zone running errands for NPCs. Doesn't feel like a world at all. Those games are fun for two or three weeks because you're like, "Oo, neat graphics... fast-paced combat..." Then you realize the game actually sucks because nothing has any meaning. You're just riding the same tracks as every other dweeb in the game.

    So when people complain about time sinks or say that "fun is all that matters and things that aren't fun shouldn't be in the game..." I cringe. Because I've played those games over and over again, and those games all disappointed the hell out of me. Aside from DAoC and EQ/UO emulators, I haven't played (or enjoyed) a MMORPG for more than a month since I played WoW. And I LOVE MMORPGs...

    Edit: Oh, and I quit WoW around 2008... So it's been 10 years or so since I've actually enjoyed a new MMORPG.


    This post was edited by Kaen at August 12, 2018 12:42 AM PDT
    • 166 posts
    August 12, 2018 12:23 AM PDT
    There is no reason to use the boat to go afk! You could go afk at any save spot in the game. If you only want the boat to go afk, then the boat is not necessary.

    Btw. I think I have seen this discussion already some time ago.

    Regarding WoW at least in classic there was a boat with some waiting time in the harbor and also a waiting time on the boat. It was not extremely long, but it was there.

    My opinion is, that to long waiting times are no fun, but maybe you could spice them up.

    Why not have the arriving boat occupied by pirates and you have to help the crew to conquer it back. The more people are helping, the faster it gets and if all are afk it takes the maximum waiting time. Same could of cours happen during the journey too. So the boat is being attacked and you can help to faster continue the journey.

    There could also be other stuff, maybe crafting, you could to in the harbor or on the boat. Maybe having special crafting stations there. Or the opportunity to play some minigames, etc.
    • 17 posts
    August 12, 2018 1:01 AM PDT
    The boat journey is a great time to make a cuppa and grab a bite to eat, or to boost the faction with the other half. Got to keep the family sweet for more game time.
    • 96 posts
    August 12, 2018 1:05 AM PDT

    It was already mentioned on stream that there wasn't going to be a heavy amount of down time. Combat looks to engaging to be checking your mail during an engagement too. Groups can take afk time, but wether thats to watch netflix or fold the laundry is up to the person.

    I've been on those boats, they were always empty, and sometimes throwing you overboard.

    • 1479 posts
    August 12, 2018 3:09 AM PDT

    Except their bugs (cyclop killing you from under the sea) I really loved boats with the fact of crossing an actual ocean map. I'm fine with a few more boats to reduce a bit the waiting time, at least two boats to have them circling in the sea.

    • 2138 posts
    August 12, 2018 6:52 AM PDT

    I think the delay if you just missed the boat or raft was 15 minutes. the icebreaker to iceclad had pretty cool animations.

    • 1120 posts
    August 12, 2018 7:33 AM PDT

    The people that start crying wolf about the game becoming a WoW clone at the first request someone makes that might make the game slightly more interesting to them are just as bad as the people that actually want a WoW clone. 

    It's so funny,  because those are the same people that preach how important socialization and community are,  but are constantly alienating new people who make suggestions in how to improve the game. 

    Watching Netflix while playing doesn't mean you're a terrible person.   It means the game has to many slow points where you don't need to pay attention.   And yes,  this can happen while in a group as well.   And no,  you would never be able to tell I was watching netflix. 

    I propose a different style of travel.   If you need to have meaningful travel... fine.   But similar to real world travel,  the boat should have departure times.   Maybe it leaves once an hour.   But always at  half passed the hour.   Give the arrival AND departure times a + - 5 minutes window and you force socialization without needing to make players wait around for 45 minutes.   You also create the meaningful travel from continent to continent because s player cannot drop what they ate doing and cross the ocean at the drop of a hat.

    • 178 posts
    August 12, 2018 7:33 AM PDT

    Regarding boats:

    I left EQ just after Velious was released but had played since beta prior to the release of the game. So, it is possible they changed the boat mechanic after I had left the game. This comment is in regards to boats in their original incarnation. The boat travel time between BB and Freeport was at least 15 minutes one way. Buffs cast on you on the dock just prior to the boat leaving would have expired before you could jump off the boat at the arriving dock. If you missed the boat it would take more than 30 minutes for the boat to return (15 minutes in each direction plus waiting time at the docks). Then you could get on the boat and take the next 15 minutes to reach your destination. Unless you were going to one of the islands it was just stand around. And regarding socializing - it didn't happen once ports and porting was widespread - boats and docks were vacant. Those that didn't have an immediate port option had to suck it up and waste that time.

    I have mentioned in previous comments that one idea for boats is to implement them as a zone. Those that are on the boat deck can still experience the travel in case they need to hop off or just want to travel. But go below deck and zone into the boat. From there a couple of exit points could be zones to the destination docks. This wouldn't be insta travel but may require some moving belowside to get to the desired exit. It may even need to involve seeking out a captain NPC and asking to depart. It would be a lot faster than waiting 45 minutes to reach your destination if you missed the boat. And it always leaves the deckside option such that if you went below deck then went back above deck you would materialize on the boat at whatever spot it happens to be in the ocean as it continues on its travels - including having to stop at islands. Just have something to do with the boats instead of nothing. And have the travel belowside take a little bit of time to remove the "insta travel" feel. Even if it takes 5 minutes to seek out the captain, engage, and disembark. You could run through some zones in 5 minutes so it is an applicable travel time that is far less than 45 minutes in the cases of just missing the boat.

    Within the confines of the boat there could be appropriate NPCs - perhaps unique NPCs only found on boats that you can interract with. Including incorporating ideas others have put forward regarding cities, towns, and gathering points of interest (taverns, inns). Things like bulletin boards, quest lines, card games, dice games, brawling, you get the idea. I would not have any killing of NPCs or PVP except for brawling for fun.

    • 153 posts
    August 12, 2018 7:52 AM PDT

    Im not a minute man i prefer longevity, and whatever they do to brinf that to the table im all for, as i said there are things around the house i can do and this gives perfect opportunity, and there are several ways to travel, less solo - more community, wizards druids and summoners are capable of getting you to where you need to go as well.