Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Hoping for help on deaths

    • 287 posts
    August 18, 2018 1:30 PM PDT
    Dying in the hell levels, especially 59 really sucked.
    • 123 posts
    August 19, 2018 5:33 AM PDT

    kreed99 said:

    There can be a huge chance for griefing if we all spawn at the zoneline and that is where the train is now currently located. 

     Sure, but there are many ways to easily avoid it, by making the spawn points with a small invulnerability zone, or not puting it near the zoning area ... plenty :)

    +1 Darch on his post.

    About the argument of harsh CR making players "learn", I'd like to submit the fact that maybe it did not make them "learn" the right things. Mostly I do not think it made players learn how to fight correctly (or maybe a little), but it made them learn how to avoid fight, avoid wipes, use the system to exploit CR mechanics. What I remember of my last EQ months is that strategies for raids were mostly based on tricks to go directly to the bosses by avoiding to clean the zone, and when there was a pull that was a bit bold there was orders to evac and/or cleric camp, players had lost the taste of a true fight to the death, too much focused on the way to avoid a too hard CR.

    I also have some nasty memories of PoF and PoH break ins, and I'd like not to see these kind of break ins, too much based on luck and not on skill, that's definitely not funny to be dead before seeing the destination zone or having a slightly chance to fight.

     

     


    This post was edited by Khendall at August 19, 2018 5:38 AM PDT
    • 1303 posts
    August 19, 2018 9:45 AM PDT

    Khendall said:

    About the argument of harsh CR making players "learn", I'd like to submit the fact that maybe it did not make them "learn" the right things. Mostly I do not think it made players learn how to fight correctly (or maybe a little), but it made them learn how to avoid fight, avoid wipes, use the system to exploit CR mechanics. What I remember of my last EQ months is that strategies for raids were mostly based on tricks to go directly to the bosses by avoiding to clean the zone, and when there was a pull that was a bit bold there was orders to evac and/or cleric camp, players had lost the taste of a true fight to the death, too much focused on the way to avoid a too hard CR.

    I also have some nasty memories of PoF and PoH break ins, and I'd like not to see these kind of break ins, too much based on luck and not on skill, that's definitely not funny to be dead before seeing the destination zone or having a slightly chance to fight.

    I'm not seeing the problem. 

    If you choose to play in a way that you minimilze the possibility that you could die/wipe, you also significantly reduce the possibility of gaining significant rewards. If you instead choose to live on the edge, venture into areas where you stand a probability of death and your team works cohesively with honed skills, you stand the chance of significant reward. 

    The applies to Hate and Fear and a few other places that were dangerous to simply set foot in. Yes, it was a big risk. Yes, you might be unable to recover your corpse for days until another guild broke the zone and cleared the zone-in. Yes, you even stood a (remote) possibility of losing your corpse. But the rewards there were well worth the risk to those who wanted to be considered among the best. 

    Risk VS Reward. Choose your path. 

    And for what its worth, I will admit that there was a degree of luck in breaking Fear and Hate. But the raids that were skilled enough were able to overcome that consistently. As a necro I was regularly sacrificed as the scout to zone in and hopefully feign before death so that I could call out a clear gap in pathers for the rest of the raid to zone and get to the safe spots. It was much less about luck, and much more about preperation, respect for the dangers, and people listening and doing what they were told when they were told and not jogging off to look at the really cool looking -fill in the blank-.  


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at August 19, 2018 9:45 AM PDT
    • 123 posts
    August 19, 2018 11:19 AM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    Khendall said:

    About the argument of harsh CR making players "learn", I'd like to submit the fact that maybe it did not make them "learn" the right things. Mostly I do not think it made players learn how to fight correctly (or maybe a little), but it made them learn how to avoid fight, avoid wipes, use the system to exploit CR mechanics. What I remember of my last EQ months is that strategies for raids were mostly based on tricks to go directly to the bosses by avoiding to clean the zone, and when there was a pull that was a bit bold there was orders to evac and/or cleric camp, players had lost the taste of a true fight to the death, too much focused on the way to avoid a too hard CR.

    I also have some nasty memories of PoF and PoH break ins, and I'd like not to see these kind of break ins, too much based on luck and not on skill, that's definitely not funny to be dead before seeing the destination zone or having a slightly chance to fight.

    I'm not seeing the problem. 

    If you choose to play in a way that you minimilze the possibility that you could die/wipe, you also significantly reduce the possibility of gaining significant rewards. If you instead choose to live on the edge, venture into areas where you stand a probability of death and your team works cohesively with honed skills, you stand the chance of significant reward. 

    Nope, it is the opposite, due to the cost of wipes, these strategies were increasing "the possibility of gaining significant rewards".

    Feyshtey said:

    The applies to Hate and Fear and a few other places that were dangerous to simply set foot in. Yes, it was a big risk. Yes, you might be unable to recover your corpse for days until another guild broke the zone and cleared the zone-in. Yes, you even stood a (remote) possibility of losing your corpse. But the rewards there were well worth the risk to those who wanted to be considered among the best. 

    Risk VS Reward. Choose your path. 

    And for what its worth, I will admit that there was a degree of luck in breaking Fear and Hate. But the raids that were skilled enough were able to overcome that consistently. As a necro I was regularly sacrificed as the scout to zone in and hopefully feign before death so that I could call out a clear gap in pathers for the rest of the raid to zone and get to the safe spots. It was much less about luck, and much more about preperation, respect for the dangers, and people listening and doing what they were told when they were told and not jogging off to look at the really cool looking -fill in the blank-.  

    That's a bit annoying when people uses the mantra "Risk vs Reward" to justify any conservative point of view as if it was a debate killer, but anyway ... It is perfectly possible to create break in situations without relying on lottery situations created by technical stuff. To die while zoning is like to die while LD, it can happen but it should be avoided when possible and not creating situations that makes it highly possible.

    I think the gameplay should promote :

    Fight >> Avoid fight

    Courage >> Cowardwess

    Skill >> Luck

    If avoiding fights, fleeing and getting luck implies getting equal/more chances to get reward, then there is something wrong.

     

     

     

    • 198 posts
    August 19, 2018 1:07 PM PDT

    Khendall said:

    That's a bit annoying when people uses the mantra "Risk vs Reward" to justify any conservative point of view as if it was a debate killer, but anyway ... It is perfectly possible to create break in situations without relying on lottery situations created by technical stuff. To die while zoning is like to die while LD, it can happen but it should be avoided when possible and not creating situations that makes it highly possible.

    I think the gameplay should promote :

    Fight >> Avoid fight

    Courage >> Cowardwess

    Skill >> Luck

    If avoiding fights, fleeing and getting luck implies getting equal/more chances to get reward, then there is something wrong.

     

    But it wasn't just all luck, that's what he was saying.  The most unlucky aspect of zoning into PoF was bad pathing right at the zone in.  Initial PoF breakins and their subsequent CRs were so hardcore, because no one really knew what they were doing yet.  But as it turned out, players figured out tactics, such as sending in scouts with FD and overcame it.  Eventually what initially began as 2-3 day corpse recoveries became trivial and PoF was on farm mode for many guilds.  This wasn't because their luck improved, but because the players improved.  And those who persisted and finally conquered it were rewarded with some of the best gear available.

    I was one of those players and I lost 3 levels and actually had to log out inside the zone and wait for them to clear more of it, because I was literally one death away from losing 46 and getting locked out of the zone.  That would have meant gear loss and a very difficult time of replacing gear and gaining those levels back.  Not long after that, I was wearing some of the PoF gear, because despite the harsh penalties, I went back more determined than ever, along with many others, and we won.

    This is exactly the risk / reward tenet that made it awesome.  That's not to say that Pantheon needs to take it to those extremes, but I can tell you that no other game made me feel nearly as rewarded as EverQuest did with their risk vs. reward game design philosophy.


    This post was edited by Parascol at August 19, 2018 2:03 PM PDT
    • 198 posts
    August 19, 2018 2:09 PM PDT

    And by the way, I don't think we should really expect an EverQuest carbon copy.  There's already so many new systems they've revealed that are really different and exciting.


    This post was edited by Parascol at August 19, 2018 2:10 PM PDT
    • 151 posts
    August 20, 2018 7:19 AM PDT

    Jaced said:

    I was just talking to my coworkers.  They are trying to get me to join thier guild for the WOW expansion on monday?  I don't plan on joining them, but they are going to take two days off so they can get to max level.  For real, brand new expansion and you are gonna max level in 2 days?   I dont want any of that crap.   Give me the grief, give the XP penalty at death and the corpse run.  Like i said before i want those levels to mean something.

    To many people, level is meaningless no matter how long it takes you to get there because the game for them isn't about leveling.  Leveling is something you're forced to do and get it out of the way in order to get to the part of the game you really want to play.

    • 3852 posts
    August 20, 2018 7:30 AM PDT

    People that don't care about the world, the story (if any), exploration, and taking their time enjoying Terminus will play but they won't be the target market and may not be all that happy in Pantheon.

    If I was an endgame-focused player why would I *want* to play a game that says upfront that raids are a small focus of its development (as is solo play), and a large focus of its development is finding ways to make it harder to get to raid level by slowing travel and exploring and making it inpossible for me to level fast unless I play with enough people I know that we can speed-level the entire group. After which we hit raid level and have no one to team with or compete against for months because almost everyone else is doing what the game was designed for.

    • 2756 posts
    August 20, 2018 7:56 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    People that don't care about the world, the story (if any), exploration, and taking their time enjoying Terminus will play but they won't be the target market and may not be all that happy in Pantheon.

    If I was an endgame-focused player why would I *want* to play a game that says upfront that raids are a small focus of its development (as is solo play), and a large focus of its development is finding ways to make it harder to get to raid level by slowing travel and exploring and making it inpossible for me to level fast unless I play with enough people I know that we can speed-level the entire group. After which we hit raid level and have no one to team with or compete against for months because almost everyone else is doing what the game was designed for.

    Brad said in the recent stream that they want to encourage slow progress and said something like you *could* probably work out ways to rush through content but you would find you get to high level and aren't prepared for the high level content because you haven't taken the time to collect all your skills and earn all the right gear and acclimation equipment, etc.  It definitely seemed that VR want you to want to (and need to) take you time levelling.  Thank the gods.  It's only by concentrating on this approach that they are likely to suceed in tailoring it for old-school players.  I'd rather they get it wrong by making it too slow than too fast.

    • 89 posts
    August 20, 2018 8:13 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    disposalist said:

    I feel like death should hurt *more* when you are higher level not less.

    Whole heartedly agree.  You should know the game by now, you should know mechanics and you should know your own limitations by the higher levels.  

    Some people might say, "Well what about raiding!?"  Well, what about it.  Death, even in raiding should still hurt.  To be the best, to progress the most, you should have to pay the highest price.  As they say, heavy is the crown that wears the head.  Or something like that.

    The only thing I will never except in a game again is losing levels. I never did like that part of a death penalty. Once I hit a level i expect that I never have to acheive it again.

    • 151 posts
    August 20, 2018 10:31 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    People that don't care about the world, the story (if any), exploration, and taking their time enjoying Terminus will play but they won't be the target market and may not be all that happy in Pantheon.

    The target is whoever finds something in this game that they want to do.  We don't really need you telling us whether someone is playing correctly or not.

    • 1399 posts
    August 20, 2018 12:01 PM PDT

    Zaketh said:

    Kittik said:

    disposalist said:

    I feel like death should hurt *more* when you are higher level not less.

    Whole heartedly agree.  You should know the game by now, you should know mechanics and you should know your own limitations by the higher levels.  

    Some people might say, "Well what about raiding!?"  Well, what about it.  Death, even in raiding should still hurt.  To be the best, to progress the most, you should have to pay the highest price.  As they say, heavy is the crown that wears the head.  Or something like that.

    The only thing I will never except in a game again is losing levels. I never did like that part of a death penalty. Once I hit a level i expect that I never have to acheive it again.

    There's always another option.

    Don't die!

    Problem solved.

    • 123 posts
    August 20, 2018 12:43 PM PDT

    Parascol said:

    Khendall said:

    That's a bit annoying when people uses the mantra "Risk vs Reward" to justify any conservative point of view as if it was a debate killer, but anyway ... It is perfectly possible to create break in situations without relying on lottery situations created by technical stuff. To die while zoning is like to die while LD, it can happen but it should be avoided when possible and not creating situations that makes it highly possible.

    I think the gameplay should promote :

    Fight >> Avoid fight

    Courage >> Cowardwess

    Skill >> Luck

    If avoiding fights, fleeing and getting luck implies getting equal/more chances to get reward, then there is something wrong.

     

    But it wasn't just all luck, that's what he was saying.  The most unlucky aspect of zoning into PoF was bad pathing right at the zone in.  Initial PoF breakins and their subsequent CRs were so hardcore, because no one really knew what they were doing yet.  But as it turned out, players figured out tactics, such as sending in scouts with FD and overcame it.  Eventually what initially began as 2-3 day corpse recoveries became trivial and PoF was on farm mode for many guilds.  This wasn't because their luck improved, but because the players improved.  And those who persisted and finally conquered it were rewarded with some of the best gear available.

    I was one of those players and I lost 3 levels and actually had to log out inside the zone and wait for them to clear more of it, because I was literally one death away from losing 46 and getting locked out of the zone.  That would have meant gear loss and a very difficult time of replacing gear and gaining those levels back.  Not long after that, I was wearing some of the PoF gear, because despite the harsh penalties, I went back more determined than ever, along with many others, and we won.

    This is exactly the risk / reward tenet that made it awesome.  That's not to say that Pantheon needs to take it to those extremes, but I can tell you that no other game made me feel nearly as rewarded as EverQuest did with their risk vs. reward game design philosophy.

    I was one of those guys too, lost a whole level in first PoF break in. What you describe is players adapting, players always adapt, even to bugs, and it does not mean bugs should be reproduced to fit the "risk vs reward" mantra. Like many players I spent 2 minutes loading to get killed without even seeing the zone, I did not found it especially funny and I don't remember so much players did enjoy it so far. And when we finally cleaned PoF, that was not more enjoyable because we got killed like this, that was enjoyable because we had good fights and killed Cazic.

    But anyway, my point on this specific subject was not the "risk vs reward" mantra, but the fact that death should not be the result of technical issues (the less the better), especially when it disadvantages players with lower PC configs that have less chances to survive in that case, and I don't even talk about zone crashes and players LD while zoning. Basically, I far prefer such break in being replaced by an unavoidable huge pull at the entrance of the zone, a true bold fight during which zoning out and evac is impossible ==> Win or die.

    • 198 posts
    August 20, 2018 1:04 PM PDT

    Khendall said:

    I was one of those guys too, lost a whole level in first PoF break in. What you describe is players adapting, players always adapt, even to bugs, and it does not mean bugs should be reproduced to fit the "risk vs reward" mantra. Like many players I spent 2 minutes loading to get killed without even seeing the zone, I did not found it especially funny and I don't remember so much players did enjoy it so far. And when we finally cleaned PoF, that was not more enjoyable because we got killed like this, that was enjoyable because we had good fights and killed Cazic.

    But anyway, my point on this specific subject was not the "risk vs reward" mantra, but the fact that death should not be the result of technical issues (the less the better), especially when it disadvantages players with lower PC configs that have less chances to survive in that case, and I don't even talk about zone crashes and players LD while zoning. Basically, I far prefer such break in being replaced by an unavoidable huge pull at the entrance of the zone, a true bold fight during which zoning out and evac is impossible ==> Win or die.

     

    Sure!  Those are good points and I can't argue with that.  Most games have some bugs and annoyances, but I would hope that in 2018 and beyond, those types of issues that emerged in the early stages of a first-of-its-kind game will be minimal after decades of lessons learned.  In fact, as EverQuest evolved, those brutal CR's became more and more manageable for various reasons.  Some of it was because they improved the game infrastructure and glitchiness.  Some of it was because players adapted and improved.  Etc.  Anyway, after listening to hours of developer commentary and reading, I think they really want to try and find a reasonable balance and eliminate some of the frustrations from past games, without compromising those risk vs. reward tenets.  When you listen to Chris Perkins and others talk about the game, you can really hear their passion and desire to make it a memorable game.  That alone makes me feel very hopeful that they will do everything they can to get it right.

    • 123 posts
    August 20, 2018 2:04 PM PDT

    Soooo true !

    Just one example : in old EQ times, we were not able to see very far, due to tech limitations, so in some zones it was difficult to find visual references to evaluate our own location or the location of our body, that's why CR in zones like Faydark forests or the karanas were a pain in the ass (when not getting locs of course). In Pantheon things will be different, we have seen in the streams that we'll be able to get visual references from very very far, and so I think that CR in outdoor zones won't be so hard that much players imagine. It also means that the "orientation challenge" won't be as hard as it was in the past, and I think that the feeling of "getting lost" will be harder to reach. Challenge will evolve and considering the higher difficulty of fights and the announced size of zones, I do believe that VR is perfectly aware of it and preparing balance since a long time :).

     

    • 2138 posts
    August 20, 2018 2:27 PM PDT

    Khendall said:

    [...]

    It also means that the "orientation challenge" won't be as hard as it was in the past, and I think that the feeling of "getting lost" will be harder to reach. [...]

     

    Chipped bone rods! Always had one in the bank :) and first priority was to get a new one if I used up the last one.

    • 752 posts
    August 20, 2018 2:49 PM PDT

    Manouk said:

    Khendall said:

    [...]

    It also means that the "orientation challenge" won't be as hard as it was in the past, and I think that the feeling of "getting lost" will be harder to reach. [...]

     

    Chipped bone rods! Always had one in the bank :) and first priority was to get a new one if I used up the last one.

    I loved those things.

    • 612 posts
    August 23, 2018 7:10 AM PDT

    Khendall said: Like many players I spent 2 minutes loading to get killed without even seeing the zone, I did not found it especially funny and I don't remember so much players did enjoy it so far.

    I'm really surprised that most games these days still don't have coding that make sure players have completed zoning and have control of their character before they can be attacked or damaged by AoE's and such. As for going Linkdead (losing connection randomly) hopefully the game can recognize this quickly and remove you from the game in a timely fashion so you are not standing there vulnerable when you can't do anything about it. Obviously there needs to be a timeout so that random lag doesn't boot you from the game, but it shouldn't have you standing there for 5 minutes before the game drops you offline if your completely linkdead.

    • 2756 posts
    August 23, 2018 7:22 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    Khendall said: Like many players I spent 2 minutes loading to get killed without even seeing the zone, I did not found it especially funny and I don't remember so much players did enjoy it so far.

    I'm really surprised that most games these days still don't have coding that make sure players have completed zoning and have control of their character before they can be attacked or damaged by AoE's and such. As for going Linkdead (losing connection randomly) hopefully the game can recognize this quickly and remove you from the game in a timely fashion so you are not standing there vulnerable when you can't do anything about it. Obviously there needs to be a timeout so that random lag doesn't boot you from the game, but it shouldn't have you standing there for 5 minutes before the game drops you offline if your completely linkdead.

    It's tricky on linkdeath because that can be abused.  Pull a monser you won't survive?  Kill the task and LD to freedom.