Arbeor said:I was a high playtime player my first time through. Mostly I was in guilds, and that helped with CRs. My first character was solo and guildless a lot, but even then I had help from friends, all who I had all met online just grouping together. I expect with Pantheon I will have much less time and be at a much lower playtime. I hope that they will create a truly social MMO, so I can go through that process again and make new friends in the game.
Nonetheless, I share your concern. I think it may be hard for VR to release a game that doesn't have some type of safety net to allow people to retrieve corpses in worst case scenarios. I have suggested in the past, a method where players can summon their corpse in a city at an enormous penalty hit. This could be on a long cooldown too. Since time is the only true penalty and experience is time, a harsh penalty will make people try very hard to get their corpse before summoning it. A penalty hit might be 10x that of a normal death. Even a top level player won't want to recoup that much experience. How many times would you be willing to do that versus getting your corpse?
Now you can expand on the summoning ability to make it fair for players with less playtime. The penalty hit could be reduced if you have a high offline time. You could do consecutive hours so if you are offline 3 straight days it reduces the penalty to 3x a normal death. Or you could do it cumulative, so for example, if you have 24 hours offline time, the summon is reduced to 9x experience of a normal death, and at 48 hours 8x experience of a normal death. Set a minimum of 2x experience of a normal death, so there is always some penalty. The idea would need to be balanced and the numbers can be tweaked, but the idea is to give people who play less and have less resources in game, some balance to the death penalty.
And, I agree with you 100% on exploiting CRs. I don't like those types of exploits and hope VR can find ways to minimize it.
Interesting. Though I must admit I was thinking about other kind of situations than the ones where the corpse is so hard to get back that decay is a real option (that needs to be answered for sure). Thinking about the past, most CRs were really tricky in the zones you died in, not really during the travel between the bind point and the zone you died in, cause in most cases it was zones in which mobs were grey, so mostly it was autorun all the way or autorun/wait at wiz/druid circle when lucky, which is just boring, not difficult. So if I has to give a solution to reduce the less interesting time sink part of CR, that would be by questionning the bind system. In EQ I was playing a warrior, and when we got CR to do, in most cases I was bound so far that I just did not participate to CRs and waited for rez ==> boring. Basically, I would eliminate bind and gate from the game, making players to repop naked at the entrance of the zone they died in, that would make CR shorter but not easier in most cases, and making everyone potentially useful, not making some classes useless cause not able to be bound at less than 1h run from the raid/group zone.
I do not think it would be trivializing CR, I think that what trivializes death is the existence of a 98% rez, it's too much recovery, 90% is far enough. So to sum up, I would transform the "autorun" time sink of CR into a "xp recovery" time sink. With such principles, could also be good to make rez not possible if the rezzed guy is not present in the same zone than it's corpse, to avoid to rezzed being used as a TP.
There can be a huge chance for griefing if we all spawn at the zoneline and that is where the train is now currently located. I liked the bind system, if i could make a small change it would be to eliminate bind soul from all casters and locate the bind locations at temples for donation or something like that. Keep everyone on an even playing field. So that there is no exploitation of cleric bound at zoneline but warrior has to run all the way back. Lets all regroup at the bind point and run the group back. This was one aspect of EQ1 i didnt like. Our group never ran back to the dungeon together. It was always random where people had placed thier bind points. So it actually created a lot of issues with ports and logistics.
All that being said there is an exception to all of this tho. The shaman with Walk the Ages: "Mark a moment in time, leaving an imprint of your spirit where you are currently standing for X duration. When you activate Walk the Ages again, you will instantly return to this location. You cannot cross zone lines with this ability." With this - shaman can have a "get out of trouble" free card. This isnt a true bind soul, but more of a just incase this goes bad fast.
OK here goes my 2 copper on deaths.
first off i agree deaths should matter but only in the way the you get reduced exp, reduced gold even and even equipment starts breaking but you should be able to revive with out having to do a dam corpse walk. I am the type of player that likes to push the boundries of what my class can do and i know becuase of this i will die alot. Playing a game can be hard but there is a fine line between hard and wasted time sinks and running to your corpse seems like one of those. I know some will say it makes you think hard about where you are and what your doing and that it makes a game challenging and i agree death in game should matter but running to your dead corpse just makes me frown
I quit EQ after getting my corpse stuck in a nasty spot. I wasn't super entrenched with the community, and didn't know who to ask for help. I tried to get my corpse back, kept dying, lost my level, then quit and never came back.
I'm not making an argument one way or the other, I just want to point out that some players will leave the game if the penalty is too harsh.
As your health bar is rapidly ticking away as the result of a bad pull or an add, the joy of finding a group to adventure with is replaced with dread because you realize you were so excited to find that group that you neglected to get "bound" at the nearest city.
Your bind point is across the sea... in the middle of an entirely different continent.
Suddenly, the death penalty is very real indeed.
Can you make it to the zone?
And a "TRAIN" is born!
Omuteef said:I am the type of player that likes to push the boundries of what my class can do and i know becuase of this i will die alot. Playing a game can be hard but there is a fine line between hard and wasted time sinks and running to your corpse seems like one of those. I know some will say it makes you think hard about where you are and what your doing and that it makes a game challenging and i agree death in game should matter but running to your dead corpse just makes me frown
If death doesn't hurt, it isn't really pushing boundaries, it's a no-risk exercise in repetition. Having to go retrieve everything you've worked for is what makes so many things in vintage EQ1 a proper challenge. Breaking into Plane of Fear is a totally different experience from vintage EQ1 to the current PoK graveyard system. Hell, keyed zones like Befallen are different without a proper death penatly.
In the black and white, it may seem unnecessary, tedious, whatever, but trust me, the harsher the death penalty, the better the MMO.
cenalan said:I quit EQ after getting my corpse stuck in a nasty spot. I wasn't super entrenched with the community, and didn't know who to ask for help. I tried to get my corpse back, kept dying, lost my level, then quit and never came back.
I'm not making an argument one way or the other, I just want to point out that some players will leave the game if the penalty is too harsh.
Of that same note there are some (/raises hand) that will leave the game if the penalty is too trivial. I NEED the agony of defeat to know the thrill of victory. I already feel what they are thinking for the penalty is too easy. People will not care, nobody will be afraid of "Fear" (bad pun about the famed EQ zone Fear) I think they are putting too much weight behind "not wanting to scare people away from content".
*Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear" Mark Twain
To just die, click loot, pick back up where you left off will give us the absence of fear. And with that another boring game.
cenalan said:I quit EQ after getting my corpse stuck in a nasty spot. I wasn't super entrenched with the community, and didn't know who to ask for help. I tried to get my corpse back, kept dying, lost my level, then quit and never came back.
I'm not making an argument one way or the other, I just want to point out that some players will leave the game if the penalty is too harsh.
Where did you get stuck?
I feel like we need this, tbh. We need necro or some class who can summon corpses, drag them, whatever. We need this type of thing to make communities tight again.
With that said, if a corpse is in some weird, obscure location (like beating feared to the bottom of a lava pit or something) and the player can demonstrate a true lack of ability to retrieve it, then maybe the GM team can intervene?
I never once said i didnt want DEATHs to be just another "oh golly gee i died no worries" lol i want deaths to be a very much a factor in the game and there are and is plenty of ways to have that happen with or without corpse runs. Mass exp loss is one way, loss of monies or broken equipent another and even a X,Y timer of a determent effects another. Some may like corpse runs to make or feel the game is harder some would say not, all i was doing and saying is that i am not a fan of them and wanted to give me 2 copper on the matter. I did not in anyways decide to support this game to come in a bash someones suggestions or dimish anothers piont of view. I am here supporting this game just like everyone else here. I gave my money just the same as everyone else.
So here is the question i have to ask the people in this forum is way does a corpse run make a MMO that more challenging? you can penalize a player alot of other ways when that charcter dies.
Omuteef said:I never once said i didnt want DEATHs to be just another "oh golly gee i died no worries" lol i want deaths to be a very much a factor in the game and there are and is plenty of ways to have that happen with or without corpse runs. Mass exp loss is one way, loss of monies or broken equipent another and even a X,Y timer of a determent effects another. Some may like corpse runs to make or feel the game is harder some would say not, all i was doing and saying is that i am not a fan of them and wanted to give me 2 copper on the matter. I did not in anyways decide to support this game to come in a bash someones suggestions or dimish anothers piont of view. I am here supporting this game just like everyone else here. I gave my money just the same as everyone else.
So here is the question i have to ask the people in this forum is way does a corpse run make a MMO that more challenging? you can penalize a player alot of other ways when that charcter dies.
Those are all features of past and present mmos and it does trivialize death. A lot.
The reason why so many support corpse recovery, and even potential corpse/gear loss, is because even as inconvenient as it can be, the rewards that result from it far outweigh that in terms of community building and overall satisfaction. When you have a corpse stuck deep in a dungeon and players help you get it back, well, you just made a social bond. When you go back a second time and actually win, well suddenly that win means a lot more and you get tremendous satisfaction from it.
I am sorry if I offended you, but I see no reason to make another cookie cutter mmo and I'm really hoping to see a game that truly encourages strong social ties, and this is one mechanic that really plays a big part in creating that.
As far as I'm aware, PA testers are doing CRs currently, and we have seen corpses laying around in the streams so far. So it seems as though this is the direction they are going, at least for now. This is very encouraging!
Parascol said:
Where did you get stuck?
I feel like we need this, tbh. We need necro or some class who can summon corpses, drag them, whatever. We need this type of thing to make communities tight again.
With that said, if a corpse is in some weird, obscure location (like beating feared to the bottom of a lava pit or something) and the player can demonstrate a true lack of ability to retrieve it, then maybe the GM team can intervene?
It was a long time ago so I am not 100% on the details, but I think it went down like this: I had bound myself in a location that I thought was safe because there were no guards around (I was evil character KoS). But apparently the guard had been pulled somewhere nearby, and when I died I would respawn and get instantly attacked.
I tried again after a short period. Same result. I tried the next day, same result. I died enough times that I lost a level and many hours of experience.
I could have created an alt and found someone to help drag my corpse, but I was so frustrated that I just unsubscribed.
I do think death should carry a significant penalty. I just hope there are "exit valves" for people who need them. When I played Vanguard I very rarely summoned my corpse due to the xp hit, but when I needed to I was glad I had that chance.
I am here for the exact reason everyone else seems to be as i dont want a cookie cutter MMO either. i still have friends that i meet in my past MMO games currently and im hoping to get the same from this game ..... a very social experience. As stated very early from Brad this game is not for everyone and is and will be a very challenging game but it also needs all type of players to pay for the game long after it launches or it wont last. Catering to everyone wont work and never will but there also needs to be line that alowws all type of players to succed and not get turned off and quit.
Just a FYI i have been playing MMOs the since 2007 and have tried and played the majority of them with EQ2 being for the most part my home. I quit EQ2 last year as it has become far to easy to facestomp most everything execpt current raid mobs and 2 much distance between the average player and the elite which made grouping non existent. add to the fact the devs didnt give 2 shits about there player base and how they could never balance anything made the game dead.
Omuteef said:So here is the question i have to ask the people in this forum is way does a corpse run make a MMO that more challenging? you can penalize a player alot of other ways when that charcter dies.
Use the EQ1 classic examples - Fear, any keyed zone (Befallen, ToFS, HS, etc), or dungeon locatons that are a grind just to get to and everything behind you has repopped.
When you die in the Plane of Fear, there is no corpse summon or drag, except maybe to the north or east wall safe spot, but the dragger/summoner has to zone into Fear like anyone else, and so do you if you want that gear back. The Fear portal drops you into the center of the zone and the mobs have damn near zonewide aggro. That's WHY breaking Fear the first few tims is so freaking scary and awesome.
When you die in a keyed zone, your keys on your corpse. This presents serious problems getting back to that corpse or having it dragged. Summoning stil works, but it's expensive as hell. Die far enough into a keyed zone and your corpse run could take hours, even days to pull off. That's what makes keyed zones scary.
And then there's the dungeons where just sheer size and distance from escape/exit, as well as distance from bind point, makes the entire experience much more nerve wracking and scary.
It's all more challenging because all the gear that allowed you to get to that spot where you were pushing the envelope...yeah, that's on your corpse, and you're now naked and gearless, and have to go fetch that corpse. It creates an entire emergent game within the game. Corpse runs are a big segment of the community. Druids/wizards will advertise porting services for a fee, and most all will port for corpse runs totally free of charge. Rogues and necros looking to make riends will drag/summon for free/at cost, and clerics aplenty will rezz for tips o just t build rep and get on friend lists.
It's simply not the same game without the CR.
Omuteef said:I never once said i didnt want DEATHs to be just another "oh golly gee i died no worries" lol i want deaths to be a very much a factor in the game and there are and is plenty of ways to have that happen with or without corpse runs. Mass exp loss is one way, loss of monies or broken equipent another and even a X,Y timer of a determent effects another. Some may like corpse runs to make or feel the game is harder some would say not, all i was doing and saying is that i am not a fan of them and wanted to give me 2 copper on the matter. I did not in anyways decide to support this game to come in a bash someones suggestions or dimish anothers piont of view. I am here supporting this game just like everyone else here. I gave my money just the same as everyone else.
So here is the question i have to ask the people in this forum is way does a corpse run make a MMO that more challenging? you can penalize a player alot of other ways when that charcter dies.
Good points. And I'll concede that I think without corpse(gear) rot. The actual corpse run is trivial in itself. More of a token gesture than anything else. So far I have heard them say the way they are leaning is
No large amount of experience loss
You get experience back when you get to your corpse.
No gear loss.
No level loss (just exp. debt)
And since they are rewarding getting your corpse with exp back that to me says there must be another option (forfeit the exp in exchange for the corpse run. other wise why bother with the exp?) So in my opinion they're suggesting a pretty trivial death penalty allready. It's still early in development, so we just need to see where it lands. "We're leaning towards" means it's not at all set in stone yet.
cenalan said:[/b
It was a long time ago so I am not 100% on the details, but I think it went down like this: I had bound myself in a location that I thought was safe because there were no guards around (I was evil character KoS). But apparently the guard had been pulled somewhere nearby, and when I died I would respawn and get instantly attacked.
I tried again after a short period. Same result. I tried the next day, same result. I died enough times that I lost a level and many hours of experience.
I could have created an alt and found someone to help drag my corpse, but I was so frustrated that I just unsubscribed.
I do think death should carry a significant penalty. I just hope there are "exit valves" for people who need them. When I played Vanguard I very rarely summoned my corpse due to the xp hit, but when I needed to I was glad I had that chance.
Yeah that does suck. I think that might be a case where a player should be able to /petition a GM and get some help if needed.
As long as they keep naked corpse runs it doesnt really matter, to me, the amount of exp penalty when you get right down to it. I am fine with whatever they decide as long as they keep naked corpse runs. I am flexible on summon corpse/graveyard. I am flexible on never having gear rot. The challenge is in the naked corpserun and trying to run from bind spot. That is where you will need the community to help you.
I think I saw someone mention insurance policies somewhere. I think that would be a good compromise. Insure your gear, so that if for some reason you cannot get to your corpse, you will get all your gear back after x number of days. Maybe this is something you could do at the bank as a service. If for some reason you can't CR your stuff, then you might have to level an alter for a few days while you wait on claims to go through =D. This would still be a good incentive to not die, or worth with the community to retrieve your corpse, but eliminate the risk of losing it entirely.
I will admit though, I came dangerously close to losing my stuff in my first PoF raid, because I died so much trying to get my stuff back I nearly deleveled to 46 (I went in at level 49). I had to log out for a couple days until the community could clear enough of the mobs for me to get my corpse. It was literally a CR that spanned like 4 days. So as Venjenz pointed out above, this really enhanced the level of satisfaction that myself and others got from finally beating that zone. It was a massive accomplishment.
Omuteef said:So here is the question i have to ask the people in this forum is way does a corpse run make a MMO that more challenging? you can penalize a player alot of other ways when that charcter dies.
From reading all this Omuteef and Arbeor make good points. My understanding of it is: How to take the "run" out of 'Corpse run"
Everything else is acceptible like Exp loss or debt, gear or money issues.
However what is the underlying current that I also agree with is the negative reinforcement that the "corpse run" gives. Once you do a corpse run, you dont want to it again. The learned behavior is: because one does not want a "corpse run", one is negatively reinforced to become a better player so as to not have to do a "corpse run".
In higher levels , the group wipe was often attributable to one person and the unspoken (or /tells) judgment was made. Example- maybe the first stream with an enchanter- Everyone in chat was saying what? and vehemently? "DONT BREAK MEZ!@ ". hehehe. We laugh now. But that was a wtf moment that was undesired and frowned upon because of the Damocles sword of the corpse run. Its a game but this was taken very seriously, like casters grabbing aggro (with or without aggro meters). It implied a nunace, a style a playerability- a gauge under which a player was judged as being good or bad.
When Powerleveling was in its infancy you could tell who was powerleveled because they would make these same mistakes we learned through negative reinforcement early on not to do. 5 monsters in camp, group has a chanter, 4 out of 5 are mezzed and 65 level bard decides to sing an AE damage because its his highest and strongest spell.... dude.
The flaw in the theory t of learning from the "run" part of the corpse run is that the "run" part was much more impactful for the class that couldn't bind themselves anywhere in the world... and even worse for classes like the warrior that couldn't increase their movement speed or stealth/invis to lessen the intense pain of their 20-45min "run". Not everyone that played 20 years ago remembers how brutal a real CR was before there were epic clerics everywhere and casters portaling or Necros/SKs summoning corpses... And still in regard to people "learning a lesson" from the "run", once the clicky clerics and other mechanics that trivialized the "run" were commonplace, the "run" just became an inconvience that ended up breeding the very mentality that Manouk mentioned that lead to the appearance of players that were unskilled, or were "powerleveled" as he put it. To summarize my thought on the CR, I think it will just be a super inconvience that will ultimately not matter after a couple of years after release, and for that reason, the players that start the game 4-5 years from now will not have to endure near of as much suffering as those of us that are starting now will.
I also think if the CR is too similar to that of original EQ that it will be most punishing for those that have RL responsibilities like family/jobs that don't allow them to play for more that 3-5 hours at a time. Because if this is similar to vanilla EQ and you can't commit to more than 2 hours in a single session you may as well not even log on for anything other than to chat or do a tradeskills (I would say "explore" too, but you would likely die if you aren't familiar with EQ's random level 45 highly agro NPC in the level 20 exp area.)
Naked corpse runs are in game. We have had official statements about how the major systems in the game have been decided upon long ago. At this point it is more about tweaks and adjustments.
I know I am repeating what many of us already know but there are new members who don't seem to be aware.
Thread cleaned up, please don't post if you intend to make a personal attack or try to put someone else down, it doesn't help the dev team or community at all.
Kindness > Negativity - We are all here for the same reason, the devs won't change the game based on one person's opinion, so please don't feel like you need to belittle or attack them for having a different opinion, just politely reply questioning their reasons or ignore them.