Sabatour said:Avaen said:I'm in favor of a severe death penalty but I'd also like to see a cap to that penalty. For example, let's say your entire group wipes and you don't have a lot of help to get back to your corpses. Or perhaps someone needs to leave or the group just disbands out of frustration. What then? I'd like to see something where perhaps your corpse would teleport to a safe location after, say, 24 hours or something. The anxiety from EQ1 of getting your corpse when your group doesn't stay together (or there's no one around to help) is quite tangible!
No. Graveyard system was tried in EQ1 and that was part of its downfall. Need to make it more class-centric, example would be Necros and summon corpse. Go out - interact with the community and get a Necro to help summon corpses etc..
That's a detail but do you have proofs that graveyard system was part of EQ downfall ? Cause all other games have systems similar to graveyard system, so basically, if players did quit EQ for games that had a similar graveyard system, I seriously doubt the fact they leaved BECAUSE of the newly introduced graveyard system ... you see what I mean :).
Nephele said:Sabatour said:Avaen said:I'm in favor of a severe death penalty but I'd also like to see a cap to that penalty. For example, let's say your entire group wipes and you don't have a lot of help to get back to your corpses. Or perhaps someone needs to leave or the group just disbands out of frustration. What then? I'd like to see something where perhaps your corpse would teleport to a safe location after, say, 24 hours or something. The anxiety from EQ1 of getting your corpse when your group doesn't stay together (or there's no one around to help) is quite tangible!
No. Graveyard system was tried in EQ1 and that was part of its downfall. Need to make it more class-centric, example would be Necros and summon corpse. Go out - interact with the community and get a Necro to help summon corpses etc..
Let's be real about this.
Real life is a *****. There are plenty of things that can happen that can cause people to not to be able to login for days at a time. And even if that's not the case, you also have to think about players playing off-peak, who, by no fault of their own, may not be able to find a necromancer/monk/rogue/whatever to help them get their corpse out of somewhere bad.
So if the game features CR (which I hope it does), then there needs to be a fallback mechanism for players who literally can't CR. You can put a minimun time limit on it, or make it take more experience, or whatever, but it needs to be there.
Agreed. It doesn't have to be easy or pleasant, just something.
Riqq said:again people taking their problems and handing them off to someone else, it is your repsonsibility not anyone elses, if this is done it will be exploited then made pointless then removed from the game entirely, i disagree
Riqq, basically, when you get help for a CR, the CR is 'your problem', and you handle it off to someone else. Sharing problems to solve it as a team is one of the true bases of building a community.So this argument is a bit ... difficult to use, in Pantheon's context.
Riqq said:
again people taking their problems and handing them off to someone else, it is your repsonsibility not anyone elses, if this is done it will be exploited then made pointless then removed from the game entirely, i disagree
Sounds like you are pretty set in your opinion and I can see most of your point so I wont try to convince you out of it but from a game design standpoint its best to have more than one path to victory, or in this case out of defeat. My “insure your items before hand and loose everything else” idea for item recovery was primarily a way to prevent people from gaining anything from having died and abandoned a corpse recovery attempt.
Insurance becomes both a cash sink and a worst case scenario. At the bank, or where ever you purchase insurance, you can retrieve your insured items and loose absolutely everything else on your corpse at the time. At this point you have lost all the experience gained and all the loot you might have possibly gained or failed to insure. Any insured items that leave your person for any period of time become uninsured.
I personally cannot think of any scenario where this method could possibly be exploited outside of some glitch which can always be fixed/rolled back by VR as an unallowable consequence. You are basically trading everything on your corpse that is uninsured for the time it takes to recover your corpse. Its not making your problem someone elses you are preparing for the worst case ahead of time.
Keno Monster said:Manouk said:In vintage EQ you could only bind in cities
Casters could bind almost anywhere. In fact I'm not certain there were any places a caster could not bind in classic EQ.
Hence corpse "run". Bind in qeynos? yes, Bins in qeynos hills? no, Bind in Blackburrow? no. Bind in field of bone? no. Bind in Cabilis? Yes. the one unique area was those dungeons that were labeled in the database as cities, Like Kaesore, could bind just in front of zone in to kaersora. Bind in tarlkanon's teeth? no. Bind on Eruds crossing? no. Bind in steamfont mountains? no. Bind in Feerot? no. Bind in Ogguk? yes- if the guards dont kill you!
Khendall said:Riqq said:again people taking their problems and handing them off to someone else, it is your repsonsibility not anyone elses, if this is done it will be exploited then made pointless then removed from the game entirely, i disagree
Riqq, basically, when you get help for a CR, the CR is 'your problem', and you handle it off to someone else. Sharing problems to solve it as a team is one of the true bases of building a community.So this argument is a bit ... difficult to use, in Pantheon's context.
you know what you just said was beautiful, and thats why it needs to stay, the people should help, this isnt something the devs should handle, its something we as a community will handle and will do it happily, and by doing it the person we did it for will remember, because if we didnt do it for them , everything they had worked for will be lost. I personally dont want my good deeds taken away.
Trasak said:
Riqq said:again people taking their problems and handing them off to someone else, it is your repsonsibility not anyone elses, if this is done it will be exploited then made pointless then removed from the game entirely, i disagree
Sounds like you are pretty set in your opinion and I can see most of your point so I wont try to convince you out of it but from a game design standpoint its best to have more than one path to victory, or in this case out of defeat. My “insure your items before hand and loose everything else” idea for item recovery was primarily a way to prevent people from gaining anything from having died and abandoned a corpse recovery attempt.
Insurance becomes both a cash sink and a worst case scenario. At the bank, or where ever you purchase insurance, you can retrieve your insured items and loose absolutely everything else on your corpse at the time. At this point you have lost all the experience gained and all the loot you might have possibly gained or failed to insure. Any insured items that leave your person for any period of time become uninsured.
I personally cannot think of any scenario where this method could possibly be exploited outside of some glitch which can always be fixed/rolled back by VR as an unallowable consequence. You are basically trading everything on your corpse that is uninsured for the time it takes to recover your corpse. Its not making your problem someone elses you are preparing for the worst case ahead of time.
we the community are your insurance, and if we arent good enough for you...you sir need to do some soul searching!
Back in EQ I played a Monk and so I pretty much never had much trouble retrieving my corpse. I also had a really good friend who played a Cleric and she was always willing to come res me any time I asked so I could get my experience back.
During Velious expansion I did this little experiment where I would always leave some summoned shurikens on my corpse so it wouldn't decay right away. I'd then leave it there where I was res'ed. After a week it would decay (ie Disappear), but for that week the corpse would be sitting there showing everyone that I'd died there. Since I was one of those young punks who played a LOT and I also was in a raiding guild where I was the puller, I tended to have lots of corpses all over the world in most zones.
So my experiment was to see who would take the time to contact me to see if I needed help with a res or recovering my corpse when they came across it. It was always really cool when I'd be deep in Temple of Veeshan, only to recieve a /tell from a player in Necropolis asking if I wanted a res on the corpse under Zlandicar's nose. Or I'd be pulling the trash to get to Velketor the Sorcerer and I'd get a /tell from some nice Cleric in Sleepers Tomb asking if I needed a res on the corpse down in the bottom where the Ancients were.
Many of these friendly players ended up on my friends list, and I'd often get messages from them at random times saying "I found another one of your corpses..." It was like a game within the game.
Sometimes people wouldn't even ask first... They would just res me without sending any message ahead of time. So I'd be minding my own business, probably pulling something and CHING a Resurrection window would pop up asking me if I wanted to accept or decline the res. I'd then decline and then message the person asking which corpse he/she found.
There was this one time early on when we were first figuring out Avatar of War in Kael. I think at the time only 3 other guilds had killed him. We were under geared and I was figuring out the pulls to get Idol of Rallos Zek solo pulled. I ended up dying a lot that raid. So I ended up piling up 24 corpses in a corner near where you pulled Idol from. A few days later I was on some other raid when I got this message from a player in one of the other raiding guilds who was pulling Idol of Rallos Zek for the first time and he said "So my pull team have all counted... and consenses is there are 24 of your corpses here... everyone is worried now... is this guy really that hard to get pulled?" to which I had to respond "Once you make it to try 25 by then it's a really easy pull :-)"
Anyway... that's my journey down nostalgia lane when it comes to corpses in EQ ;-)
Riqq said:Trasak said:
Riqq said:again people taking their problems and handing them off to someone else, it is your repsonsibility not anyone elses, if this is done it will be exploited then made pointless then removed from the game entirely, i disagree
Sounds like you are pretty set in your opinion and I can see most of your point so I wont try to convince you out of it but from a game design standpoint its best to have more than one path to victory, or in this case out of defeat. My “insure your items before hand and loose everything else” idea for item recovery was primarily a way to prevent people from gaining anything from having died and abandoned a corpse recovery attempt.
Insurance becomes both a cash sink and a worst case scenario. At the bank, or where ever you purchase insurance, you can retrieve your insured items and loose absolutely everything else on your corpse at the time. At this point you have lost all the experience gained and all the loot you might have possibly gained or failed to insure. Any insured items that leave your person for any period of time become uninsured.
I personally cannot think of any scenario where this method could possibly be exploited outside of some glitch which can always be fixed/rolled back by VR as an unallowable consequence. You are basically trading everything on your corpse that is uninsured for the time it takes to recover your corpse. Its not making your problem someone elses you are preparing for the worst case ahead of time.
we the community are your insurance, and if we arent good enough for you...you sir need to do some soul searching!
I need a new broker.
Everyone is talking about CRs and loves telling stores of the bad CRs, but remember, most CRs weren't that bad. So, even if there is a CR in the death penalty, a lot of the time it's a minimal interruption of what you were doing before you died.
Often CRs were easy ...
Casters and healers could bind most places, including right near the entrance dungeon. Often they could respawn and get to corpses, saving the tank or others from having to run back. Sometimes you even dragged the respawn back to your camp and rooted or mezed them, so the the cleric could rez in the tank. This was very doable in dungeons and was easy at most outside camps. Wiping at an outside camp was generally a easy CR, since clerics were bound close by.
Another nearby group would rez you as many people pointed out. Your cleric gets rezed in and then the group is back up in a few minutes. And most of the time you didn't lose your camp.
You are fightng in highly populated zones where there is constant traffic in and out, and it's not so tough and doesn't take long to follow a group into your corpses.
Even when dying deep in a zone with no chance to get it back, there were always options like rogues to drag it or necromancers, or someone in the zone with a high level alt willing to log in and get your corpse.
And when you did go into dangerous places that were hard to CR, it was generally with a group of people you already knew and trusted. People that you knew would stick around to CR or help you later if you got knocked offline and couldn't get back on until days later. That's definitely one place reputation mattered.
Sure, we all have horror stores to tell of forgetting to bind nearby and having to run across two continents to get our corpse, or fighting with backup gear into one of the toughest dungeons in the game to reach your corpse, or losing your corpse in a pool of lava because you went linkdead while running. And yes, that last one happened to me.
But most of the CR's aren't that hard. They only take minimal time away from you. And as others like Trasak pointed out, time is the only real penalty the devs have that hurts us .. and I want a game that is going to hurt when I make mistakes. That potential for pain makes you much more hyper-aware of your sourroundings, taking nothing for granted and making sure you learn everything you can about how to stay alive. And as you master your world, you master CRs, which involves making friends to help you CR, and in the end most CR's aren't that bad.
That's a nice paragraph indeed Arbeor, though pretty romantic view oriented to positive aspects, without treating negative ones that are more pragmatic. If time is the only real penalty, then it should be balanced to make it more evenly painful for every kind of player, and it's not, death management with CR as it was in EQ was far more a penalty for players with lower playtime than for players with higher playtime. High playtime players had plenty solution to trivialize most of CRs, by growing clerics alts, necros, using corpses for TP, etc ... I think that's not fair to promote a death management that is a pain in the ass for more common players and nearly trivial and even in some case a tool for high playtime players.
I'm not talking about suppressing CR, I'm talking about balancing it and making it not exploitable and more conform to the risk vs reward principle.
Just one example among many that I'd like not to see : I remember during Velious that around the entrance of ToV there were rez points created by some guilds, that was a bit odd to see, a pile of corpses, one for each member, a low level cleric was camped there, just had to log it, rez a cleric with epic that was TPed there and then he was chain rezzing everyone. In less than 5 minutes the guild avoided all the content and was able to raid ToV or to bring back everyone after a wipe. I'm wondering where is the "lesson learned when I make mistake" and where is the respect of environment when you can use such methods.
Crazzie said:I dont wish to spend hours on end CR recovering when it is not needed. If thats the case, we will pick and choose who we invite to the group then.
2 CC, 2 Healers, 1 tank, and 1 dps... here we go again..... Tank and spank.
This works perfectly...those who are afraid to die will take less risk(not a bad thing)... see group with 2 CC, 2 Healers, 1 tank, and 1 dps
Those who are not afraid to die and want to push themselves will take more risk(not a bad thing either) and have a chance at more reward...see group with tank,cc,healer and 3 dps
2 CC, 2 Healers, 1 tank, and 1 dps vs tank,cc,healer and 3 dps will not kill nearly as many enemies thus you will level slower (less xp) and have less chance of item drops...this is of course dependent on both parties being capable players.
This is literally risk vs reward and everyone can make their own decisions on where they stand with it.
Arbeor said:Casters and healers could bind most places, including right near the entrance dungeon.
Sure, we all have horror stores to tell of forgetting to bind nearby and having to run across two continents to get our corpse, or fighting with backup gear into one of the toughest dungeons in the game to reach your corpse, or losing your corpse in a pool of lava because you went linkdead while running. And yes, that last one happened to me.
I recall the only place being able to bind was in cities- hence corpse run. Very few dungeons that were coded as "cities" allowed you to bind near them otherwise, every bind was in a cirty and the higher end dungeons were zones away-
Was it different on other servers? or was FV the only place you coudl ONLY bind in cities.
Khendall said:That's a nice paragraph indeed Arbeor, though pretty romantic view oriented to positive aspects, without treating negative ones that are more pragmatic. If time is the only real penalty, then it should be balanced to make it more evenly painful for every kind of player, and it's not, death management with CR as it was in EQ was far more a penalty for players with lower playtime than for players with higher playtime. High playtime players had plenty solution to trivialize most of CRs, by growing clerics alts, necros, using corpses for TP, etc ... I think that's not fair to promote a death management that is a pain in the ass for more common players and nearly trivial and even in some case a tool for high playtime players.
I'm not talking about suppressing CR, I'm talking about balancing it and making it not exploitable and more conform to the risk vs reward principle.
Just one example among many that I'd like not to see : I remember during Velious that around the entrance of ToV there were rez points created by some guilds, that was a bit odd to see, a pile of corpses, one for each member, a low level cleric was camped there, just had to log it, rez a cleric with epic that was TPed there and then he was chain rezzing everyone. In less than 5 minutes the guild avoided all the content and was able to raid ToV or to bring back everyone after a wipe. I'm wondering where is the "lesson learned when I make mistake" and where is the respect of environment when you can use such methods.
I don't see that as a player with a big time to play related case. It depends of friendships and an overall avaliability of others.
Back in eq I could barely play 3 hours a day at best and I never had CR problems. Because when I was out of time a friend would do it for me.
MauvaisOeil said:Khendall said:That's a nice paragraph indeed Arbeor, though pretty romantic view oriented to positive aspects, without treating negative ones that are more pragmatic. If time is the only real penalty, then it should be balanced to make it more evenly painful for every kind of player, and it's not, death management with CR as it was in EQ was far more a penalty for players with lower playtime than for players with higher playtime. High playtime players had plenty solution to trivialize most of CRs, by growing clerics alts, necros, using corpses for TP, etc ... I think that's not fair to promote a death management that is a pain in the ass for more common players and nearly trivial and even in some case a tool for high playtime players.
I'm not talking about suppressing CR, I'm talking about balancing it and making it not exploitable and more conform to the risk vs reward principle.
Just one example among many that I'd like not to see : I remember during Velious that around the entrance of ToV there were rez points created by some guilds, that was a bit odd to see, a pile of corpses, one for each member, a low level cleric was camped there, just had to log it, rez a cleric with epic that was TPed there and then he was chain rezzing everyone. In less than 5 minutes the guild avoided all the content and was able to raid ToV or to bring back everyone after a wipe. I'm wondering where is the "lesson learned when I make mistake" and where is the respect of environment when you can use such methods.
I don't see that as a player with a big time to play related case. It depends of friendships and an overall avaliability of others.
Back in eq I could barely play 3 hours a day at best and I never had CR problems. Because when I was out of time a friend would do it for me.
Yeah most of them arent bad, but this guy sent me a private message and his point isnt to make it easier and less debting, he actually wants to make it easier and more debting, so getting your body back wont be as much of a pain, but being that you died the consequences are much worse, llike instead of losing half a level lose 75% of a level, but you will get your body back and get back to the grind a bit easier which i dont agree with completely but it is a reasonable alteration of death and taxes.
Arbeor said:Everyone is talking about CRs and loves telling stores of the bad CRs, but remember, most CRs weren't that bad. So, even if there is a CR in the death penalty, a lot of the time it's a minimal interruption of what you were doing before you died.
Often CRs were easy ...
Good point. We all are bring back deep nightmarish thougths from long ago. We died 100's of times and only a select few of those were these nightmares we are reincarnating.
Manouk said:I recall the only place being able to bind was in cities- hence corpse run. Very few dungeons that were coded as "cities" allowed you to bind near them otherwise, every bind was in a cirty and the higher end dungeons were zones away-
Was it different on other servers? or was FV the only place you coudl ONLY bind in cities.
Wasn't FV the roleplay server? I don't recall if it had a specail rulest.
On the regular servers you could bind in any outside zone, perhaps with some extremely rare exceptions. My first main was a druid and I regularly bound between Frontier Mountains and Lake of Ill Omen in Kunark. This allowed casters to bind just outside the dungeon, or at the zoneline when doing outside camps.
Khendall said:That's a nice paragraph indeed Arbeor, though pretty romantic view oriented to positive aspects, without treating negative ones that are more pragmatic. If time is the only real penalty, then it should be balanced to make it more evenly painful for every kind of player, and it's not, death management with CR as it was in EQ was far more a penalty for players with lower playtime than for players with higher playtime. High playtime players had plenty solution to trivialize most of CRs, by growing clerics alts, necros, using corpses for TP, etc ... I think that's not fair to promote a death management that is a pain in the ass for more common players and nearly trivial and even in some case a tool for high playtime players.
I'm not talking about suppressing CR, I'm talking about balancing it and making it not exploitable and more conform to the risk vs reward principle.
Just one example among many that I'd like not to see : I remember during Velious that around the entrance of ToV there were rez points created by some guilds, that was a bit odd to see, a pile of corpses, one for each member, a low level cleric was camped there, just had to log it, rez a cleric with epic that was TPed there and then he was chain rezzing everyone. In less than 5 minutes the guild avoided all the content and was able to raid ToV or to bring back everyone after a wipe. I'm wondering where is the "lesson learned when I make mistake" and where is the respect of environment when you can use such methods.
I was a high playtime player my first time through. Mostly I was in guilds, and that helped with CRs. My first character was solo and guildless a lot, but even then I had help from friends, all who I had all met online just grouping together. I expect with Pantheon I will have much less time and be at a much lower playtime. I hope that they will create a truly social MMO, so I can go through that process again and make new friends in the game.
Nonetheless, I share your concern. I think it may be hard for VR to release a game that doesn't have some type of safety net to allow people to retrieve corpses in worst case scenarios. I have suggested in the past, a method where players can summon their corpse in a city at an enormous penalty hit. This could be on a long cooldown too. Since time is the only true penalty and experience is time, a harsh penalty will make people try very hard to get their corpse before summoning it. A penalty hit might be 10x that of a normal death. Even a top level player won't want to recoup that much experience. How many times would you be willing to do that versus getting your corpse?
Now you can expand on the summoning ability to make it fair for players with less playtime. The penalty hit could be reduced if you have a high offline time. You could do consecutive hours so if you are offline 3 straight days it reduces the penalty to 3x a normal death. Or you could do it cumulative, so for example, if you have 24 hours offline time, the summon is reduced to 9x experience of a normal death, and at 48 hours 8x experience of a normal death. Set a minimum of 2x experience of a normal death, so there is always some penalty. The idea would need to be balanced and the numbers can be tweaked, but the idea is to give people who play less and have less resources in game, some balance to the death penalty.
And, I agree with you 100% on exploiting CRs. I don't like those types of exploits and hope VR can find ways to minimize it.