The reward for successfully collecting your corpse should be nothing more than getting your gear back.
I think there is a sentence structure or punctuation issue in Vandraad's post
Vandraad saidFrom what VR has said over the years is that upon death you do leave a corpse with all your items on it reappearing at your bind point.
My understanding is you leave a corpse with all of your items on it and you appear naked at your bind point.
If you die and still have all your gear then death is trivialized and in some cases, it would be better to resume getting experience and forgo the corpse run entirely. That concept seems to be very much NOT in the spirit of a hardcore MMORPG or what I would hope to see from Pantheon.
Keno Monster said:Manouk said:In vintage EQ you could only bind in cities
Casters could bind almost anywhere. In fact I'm not certain there were any places a caster could not bind in classic EQ.
Shortly after Kunark released they fixed it so you couldn't bind in Timorous Deep. People were binding at the firepot portals, which gave every class with gate essentially unlimited ports to every major town in Norrath.
I don't mind corpse runs, xp loss or even deleveling but I'd very much prefer if there was some sort of insurance (like the 7 day graveyard thing that disposalist mentioned) that would prevent the risk of permanent loss of your gear and inventory.
Edit: it is the same reason I don't play UO, I'm a carebear
A while back I had an idea on how to hit the middle ground on death penalties or at least have a frustration limit option.
Save Points (for lack of a better term that isn't just sophistry)
When you log out in an inn or otherwise designated area all your current experience is considered saved. When you head out to go adventuring all your earned experience is temporary. If you die you return back to the last point you saved at having lost all the experience you earned since you last saved or 10% of your current level which ever is higher. If you return to your corpse you can retrieve 50% of the lost experience, resurrections will return 75-95% .
In addition to saving your experience at save points you can also insure your equipment. For a certain amount of cash you can have items on your body insured. On the event of an unrecoverable death you can have your insured items returned to you and they become uninsured. Everything else on your body and all cash on your body is lost permanently and your corpse disappears which removes the chance of recovering any lost experience.
These save points become your only bind point options as well for all classes. In order to level you must return to a save point and save otherwise you still have not actually leveled.
Mordecai said: Then don’t die :D corpse runs are a pain, loss of xp is a pain. But it sharpens a players skill and ability. It makes better players imo. Iron sharpens iron as it goes
**** happens, not always in your control, and with limited playtime, it would majorly suck to see all your progress wiped away and have to spend what little time you have just trying to get your stuff back on your body.
I am not a masochist. I've grown plenty skilled in games without ridiculous death penalties. This will definitely dissuade me from engaging in some of my favorite activities (testing myself by tackling content theoretically "out of my league" - either by level or number of players or gear; my husband and I enjoy trying to 2-man as much as we can at level just for the fun and challenge).
I'm not fond of CR, especially naked CR, but I'll handle it if there is.
Though the arguments in favour of CR seems petty to me :
- some people reminds us how many friends they made during CR ... ok ... but we all played many games without CR and made as much friends, cause it is not due to getting CR or not, it is due to getting community projects and activities in general and the specific ability to each player to be social.
- CR and harsh death penalty would make the players respect the environment. Basically I would agree with this argument if it was the case for every kind of players, but that's not. "Respect the environment", for casual players it usually means that if you die 3 or 4 times against the same mobs, you have to go play elsewhere to find another challenge. But this argument never applies on hardcore players that chain try on bosses, in that case the "respect the environment" argument magically disappears.
- "a more hard MMO" ... harder fights yes, harder travel yes, but losing time is losing time, it's not hard, it's just boring. Basically, I prefer spending 2 hours more getting lost xp back than running during 1 hour, cause during the 2 hours I fight, so I would prefer for example the rez recovered xp being less important and CR being less time consuming.
Khendall said:I'm not fond of CR, especially naked CR, but I'll handle it if there is.
Though the arguments in favour of CR seems petty to me :
- some people reminds us how many friends they made during CR ... ok ... but we all played many games without CR and made as much friends, cause it is not due to getting CR or not, it is due to getting community projects and activities in general and the specific ability to each player to be social.
- CR and harsh death penalty would make the players respect the environment. Basically I would agree with this argument if it was the case for every kind of players, but that's not. "Respect the environment", for casual players it usually means that if you die 3 or 4 times against the same mobs, you have to go play elsewhere to find another challenge. But this argument never applies on hardcore players that chain try on bosses, in that case the "respect the environment" argument magically disappears.
- "a more hard MMO" ... harder fights yes, harder travel yes, but losing time is losing time, it's not hard, it's just boring. Basically, I prefer spending 2 hours more getting lost xp back than running during 1 hour, cause during the 2 hours I fight, so I would prefer for example the rez recovered xp being less important and CR being less time consuming.
I really don't think I ever made as much friends as I did in everquest in any other game.
Are you really sure it was the case ? Because it's one of my reasons of backing patheon : long term friends in a hard game close to tabletop rpg spirit.
I don't get the environment respect point, if people are scared of dying, they will play cautiously. If they aren't, they wont and pay somehow the drawback.
Over personnal preferences on time spent on cr / travel, that's up to vr to make the right decision, while as player we ask for convenience even if we will be the ones ranting about it once done.
MauvaisOeil said:Khendall said:I'm not fond of CR, especially naked CR, but I'll handle it if there is.
Though the arguments in favour of CR seems petty to me :
- some people reminds us how many friends they made during CR ... ok ... but we all played many games without CR and made as much friends, cause it is not due to getting CR or not, it is due to getting community projects and activities in general and the specific ability to each player to be social.
- CR and harsh death penalty would make the players respect the environment. Basically I would agree with this argument if it was the case for every kind of players, but that's not. "Respect the environment", for casual players it usually means that if you die 3 or 4 times against the same mobs, you have to go play elsewhere to find another challenge. But this argument never applies on hardcore players that chain try on bosses, in that case the "respect the environment" argument magically disappears.
- "a more hard MMO" ... harder fights yes, harder travel yes, but losing time is losing time, it's not hard, it's just boring. Basically, I prefer spending 2 hours more getting lost xp back than running during 1 hour, cause during the 2 hours I fight, so I would prefer for example the rez recovered xp being less important and CR being less time consuming.
I really don't think I ever made as much friends as I did in everquest in any other game.
Are you really sure it was the case ? Because it's one of my reasons of backing patheon : long term friends in a hard game close to tabletop rpg spirit.
I don't get the environment respect point, if people are scared of dying, they will play cautiously. If they aren't, they wont and pay somehow the drawback.
Over personnal preferences on time spent on cr / travel, that's up to vr to make the right decision, while as player we ask for convenience even if we will be the ones ranting about it once done.
Pretty much hit it on the head here, Personally I dont want this to be an auto run through zones game, I want it to be figure out the safest route game, if that means zig zagging through an area and it takes 2 minutes longer to get to where I need or want to be, then thats awesome IMO, I really think alot of people are trying to get VR to form their game to them, this isnt the game to be created for you, its the game to be created against you, you are the player, you have a set to manipulate the environment they setup for you, keep it hardcore VR for the sake of sanity do not cater to the public!
Good points MauvaisOeil, I have to give more details.
I can compare to WoW and Lotro, which are the 2 games I played as long as EQ and a bit longer even. In WoW I made as much friends as in EQ, at least WoW vanilla and BC, it is important to give this information cause things heavily changed when WoW added features ot create random rush group dungeons. I talked about community project and activities, managing a guild and making it progressing through the raid content was the project, the contact was easy in vanilla, quests were good ways to make friends, exchanging informations, grouping for group quests, the main core of the guild was build like this and it grew through our ability to build groups for dungeons content, as there was no tool to make random groups, we were calling friends, friends of friends (that became friends) and the links between people were naturally created and reinforced through the community project. The important point is that the leveling and progression process involved human contact, you were able to level to 50 alone, but it was far less efficient and agreable. If I can compare to EQ, it was also possible to progress from 1 to 50 alone, that was called 'being necro' (just kidding, don't kill and reanimate me please).
In Lotro it was a bit different as I started with people I already knew, but we made friends differently, it was slower and we took more time, but the project was more social, we made it through the guild hall, trophies obtained in groups or raids, choosing a quarter in which we created our village. The scale was smaller too, circle of friends was around 30-40 people only.
By all means, in my mind making friends is huge part social skills of the player, good part the way the game encourage human contact through gameplay, but mostly not giving unappropriate tools that kill the human contact as WoW did with it's dungeon rush tool.
There is another point that also comes in my mind. I tried many MMOs like GW2, FFXIV, Rift, it is harder to make friends, there are class interdependency in some of these games too, that's why I won't say class interdependency is the most important, its is for sure, but it is not enough. What EQ made better was giving the opportunity to players of the same class to get their own way of playing. So by playing with people you know, you can become better and better by acquiring automatisms, what is mostly not true in the games I quoted.
About the environment respect point, I just wanna state that it is used to justify penalties that cost much time to casual players by saying them that it is normal, if they die 3 or 4 times against the same mob, the hard penalties are there to show them they have to respect the environment and have to go hunt elsewhere. I say that if the goal of such death penalties is this, it should be adapted for raiders to respect the environment the same way, and not making 15-20 tries in a row on a boss with low consequences cause of 98% xp recovery (as they can handle CR more easily than casual gamer).
Khendall said:Good points MauvaisOeil, I have to give more details.
I can compare to WoW and Lotro, which are the 2 games I played as long as EQ and a bit longer even. In WoW I made as much friends as in EQ, at least WoW vanilla and BC, it is important to give this information cause things heavily changed when WoW added features ot create random rush group dungeons. I talked about community project and activities, managing a guild and making it progressing through the raid content was the project, the contact was easy in vanilla, quests were good ways to make friends, exchanging informations, grouping for group quests, the main core of the guild was build like this and it grew through our ability to build groups for dungeons content, as there was no tool to make random groups, we were calling friends, friends of friends (that became friends) and the links between people were naturally created and reinforced through the community project. The important point is that the leveling and progression process involved human contact, you were able to level to 50 alone, but it was far less efficient and agreable. If I can compare to EQ, it was also possible to progress from 1 to 50 alone, that was called 'being necro' (just kidding, don't kill and reanimate me please).
In Lotro it was a bit different as I started with people I already knew, but we made friends differently, it was slower and we took more time, but the project was more social, we made it through the guild hall, trophies obtained in groups or raids, choosing a quarter in which we created our village. The scale was smaller too, circle of friends was around 30-40 people only.
By all means, in my mind making friends is huge part social skills of the player, good part the way the game encourage human contact through gameplay, but mostly not giving unappropriate tools that kill the human contact as WoW did with it's dungeon rush tool.
There is another point that also comes in my mind. I tried many MMOs like GW2, FFXIV, Rift, it is harder to make friends, there are class interdependency in some of these games too, that's why I won't say class interdependency is the most important, its is for sure, but it is not enough. What EQ made better was giving the opportunity to players of the same class to get their own way of playing. So by playing with people you know, you can become better and better by acquiring automatisms, what is mostly not true in the games I quoted.
About the environment respect point, I just wanna state that it is used to justify penalties that cost much time to casual players by saying them that it is normal, if they die 3 or 4 times against the same mob, the hard penalties are there to show them they have to respect the environment and have to go hunt elsewhere. I say that if the goal of such death penalties is this, it should be adapted for raiders to respect the environment the same way, and not making 15-20 tries in a row on a boss with low consequences cause of 98% xp recovery (as they can handle CR more easily than casual gamer).
TBH man what does casual vs hardcore have anything to do with anything, the casual gamer is just as mindful as the hardcore or should be sooner or later, if you died 3 to 4 times thats a you problem not a dev problem, i for one am not a fan of taking responsibility from an individual and thats what youre promoting here. Death is not welcomed here thats the point, its unwise to even attempt anything alone in a game like this, you know these things as you played eq, and all those other games you listed were mind-numbing faceroll games, literally fell asleep during those games and no one knew and still cleared content....no thanks man no thanks...
Riqq said:TBH man what does casual vs hardcore have anything to do with anything, the casual gamer is just as mindful as the hardcore or should be sooner or later, if you died 3 to 4 times thats a you problem not a dev problem, i for one am not a fan of taking responsibility from an individual and thats what youre promoting here. Death is not welcomed here thats the point, its unwise to even attempt anything alone in a game like this, you know these things as you played eq, and all those other games you listed were mind-numbing faceroll games, literally fell asleep during those games and no one knew and still cleared content....no thanks man no thanks...
Man, that could be nice to try to understand the substance of a message before answering it. Maybe a nice icon popping up over your head could help to remind it :) #jokeAlert.
Khendall said:Riqq said:TBH man what does casual vs hardcore have anything to do with anything, the casual gamer is just as mindful as the hardcore or should be sooner or later, if you died 3 to 4 times thats a you problem not a dev problem, i for one am not a fan of taking responsibility from an individual and thats what youre promoting here. Death is not welcomed here thats the point, its unwise to even attempt anything alone in a game like this, you know these things as you played eq, and all those other games you listed were mind-numbing faceroll games, literally fell asleep during those games and no one knew and still cleared content....no thanks man no thanks...
Man, that could be nice to try to understand the substance of a message before answering it. Maybe a nice icon popping up over your head could help to remind it :) #jokeAlert.
From what i gathered you said it seemed petty to you, I see it as motivation, and you read that XD lol!
Death penalties are important because they stimulate the feeling of risk much like the risk of loosing it all at the craps tables in a casino. If there is no real consequence for failure then you never feel that excitement when you are on the bitter edge of death but manage to pull through. Gold, items, buffs, even your turn at attempting the boss mob are just in game resources. Time is the only real commodity from the real world that a game can take away from you and there for it is the only thing that will truly make you feel something precious is at risk.
Even if you argue that gold an items can be painful to loose its not actually the gold or the items but rather the time and effort it took you to acquire them. After all if the circumstances are right you will trade away the gold and even vendor your formerly best item but you will always feel pain destroying 8 hours of effort.
Corpse runs are intended to be an additional time sink where you can exchange some of the past time lost by spending some of your current time to recover it. The real question is when is too much, too much. A corpse at the very bottom of the dungeon is unrecoverable for one person and possibly even for a fully geared group of your level, after all your group died. Both the experience gained and the loot acquirable in those deep places need to be balanced against the time it takes to get from the closest bind point both with gear and without it.
There should also be a cut your losses option that accounts for people being unable to get assistance to retrieve an otherwise unrecoverable corpse. For example if the healer loses power at their house for 6 hours and the group wipes in the process that healer is doomed to a solo corpse retrieval. The healer may get lucky and a non related group may be willing to help but through no fault of their own they are completely screwed and dependent on others.
At this point there should be some way for players to sacrifice something in order to just be able to go back to playing. Maybe if items are cheap enough and wear out fast enough there is no need to retrieve them but I do not thing that is the design intent of Pantheon. To that end whether it is giving up on getting a rez to actually paying even more experience to a special npc or necro player to summon their corpse seems appropriate. It is still painful and most of the time its better to get your corpse but the 1 out of 20 times its truly terrible I think there should be a cap on the amount of negative enjoyment one player has to deal with.
Avaen said:I'm in favor of a severe death penalty but I'd also like to see a cap to that penalty. For example, let's say your entire group wipes and you don't have a lot of help to get back to your corpses. Or perhaps someone needs to leave or the group just disbands out of frustration. What then? I'd like to see something where perhaps your corpse would teleport to a safe location after, say, 24 hours or something. The anxiety from EQ1 of getting your corpse when your group doesn't stay together (or there's no one around to help) is quite tangible!
No. Graveyard system was tried in EQ1 and that was part of its downfall. Need to make it more class-centric, example would be Necros and summon corpse. Go out - interact with the community and get a Necro to help summon corpses etc..
I was just talking to my coworkers. They are trying to get me to join thier guild for the WOW expansion on monday? I don't plan on joining them, but they are going to take two days off so they can get to max level. For real, brand new expansion and you are gonna max level in 2 days? I dont want any of that crap. Give me the grief, give the XP penalty at death and the corpse run. Like i said before i want those levels to mean something.
Sabatour said:Avaen said:I'm in favor of a severe death penalty but I'd also like to see a cap to that penalty. For example, let's say your entire group wipes and you don't have a lot of help to get back to your corpses. Or perhaps someone needs to leave or the group just disbands out of frustration. What then? I'd like to see something where perhaps your corpse would teleport to a safe location after, say, 24 hours or something. The anxiety from EQ1 of getting your corpse when your group doesn't stay together (or there's no one around to help) is quite tangible!
No. Graveyard system was tried in EQ1 and that was part of its downfall. Need to make it more class-centric, example would be Necros and summon corpse. Go out - interact with the community and get a Necro to help summon corpses etc..
Let's be real about this.
Real life is a *****. There are plenty of things that can happen that can cause people to not to be able to login for days at a time. And even if that's not the case, you also have to think about players playing off-peak, who, by no fault of their own, may not be able to find a necromancer/monk/rogue/whatever to help them get their corpse out of somewhere bad.
So if the game features CR (which I hope it does), then there needs to be a fallback mechanism for players who literally can't CR. You can put a minimun time limit on it, or make it take more experience, or whatever, but it needs to be there.