Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord flex Tank/DPS class?

    • 701 posts
    August 27, 2019 8:06 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Darch said:]

    If armor were the only factor to mitigation, a Shaman or Cleric could tank with healing agro.  The reason they won't be tanks will likely be due to the lack of or very low defensive skill(s).  With that said, there are a few important factors missing from the hypothetical you posted.  One is the Warrior will have +20% higher armor than even the Paladin, but more important than just having a base 20% higher AC to any armor worn (and then add the resilience resource) is the SHIELD!  Its a safe bet that the shield will give a "block skill" the the Warrior and Paladin will have to raise (otherwise casters could block as well) possibly negating all damage with higher skill or at least mitigating a lot more damage than AC alone... as well as likely greatly increasing AC (and block/reflect spells for warrior).  The other factor that is missing from the above equation is the biggest flaw of all in the "selfheal to supplement mitigation theory" is that the DL needs to "hit" (i.e. not be blocked, parried, riposted, dodged, stunned, feared, blinded, rooted/snared, immune target or just plain miss) their target with a "melee attack" in order to self heal... this is the biggest flaw in having "lifesteal" supplement mitigation.

    Given the higher AC, shield, and resilience, its a safe bet the DL will take much more than 15% more damage than a Warrior at end game "solely considering mitigation" (ESPECIALLY if block negates damage and the hit/miss conditional algorithm is similar to EQ - which given the streams I've seen looks highly probable).  The EQ hit/miss conditional statements went something like:
    0. check to see if Monk Block (not shield block) fired. if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss'
    Even before all of those hit/miss checks, the first is range and hitbox... so many variables that can deny the DL their supplement for poor mitigation.

    The DL better have some serious DPS (compared to the Warrior/Paladin) or I'm hoping to see some kind of Shield of Blood ability or something for the DL that will give them a way to "block" or "absorb" physical damage consistently without having to deal melee damage... 

     

    That's only working as the warrior's advantage because :

    1) You've claimed a shield will include random block as an evasion chance (which Eq didn't factor if there is a game we can observe as an inspiration, block was the monk's unarmed parry)

    2) Attack table featuring every statistical results in one single roll, making having one more result (shield) extremely beneficial. (Which again EQ didn't feature, parry and dodge were successive rolls).

     

    Basically you've put wow maths on pantheon to argue about shield superiority, it might work that way, or not. We can't know yet.

    These are actually/literally EQ mechanics, not WoW.  The hit/miss table did feature every statistical result in the order that I listed.  add:  I never played WoW when they had the monk but I doubt they have the same block mechanic as the EQ monk (which is the first check in the list) and was a very important monk skill because it completely stopped the attack which was different than the shield block which reduced damage (until later with AAs).  Monks ALSO had dodge, parry and riposte to completely negate damage... yet they still weren't main tanks (probably because when they did get hit, they got rocked due to having low armor even regardless of their high defense skill and "evasion tanking" is too unreliable)

     

    Block

    Negating an attack by deflecting the blow with one's body is a skill unique to the monk, and blocking is one of several skills available to that class.


    This post was edited by Darch at August 27, 2019 8:19 AM PDT
    • 1660 posts
    August 27, 2019 5:15 PM PDT

    These are actually/literally EQ mechanics, not WoW.  The hit/miss table did feature every statistical result in the order that I listed.  add:  I never played WoW when they had the monk but I doubt they have the same block mechanic as the EQ monk (which is the first check in the list) and was a very important monk skill because it completely stopped the attack which was different than the shield block which reduced damage (until later with AAs).  Monks ALSO had dodge, parry and riposte to completely negate damage... yet they still weren't main tanks (probably because when they did get hit, they got rocked due to having low armor even regardless of their high defense skill and "evasion tanking" is too unreliable)

     

     

    Your probably missreaded me, I never stated block was a monk skill in wow, but in EQ. Blocking in a shield was not existant in EQ and thus shield weren't so prevalent because all they gave was AC, and with AC soft caps it wasn't "so much" interesting over additional threat (for warriors. Knights are another discussion.)

     

    I'm also pretty sure EQ had no "attack table" (it was a wow thing to ease calculations), and that dodge/parry/riposte were calculated one after the other and not in a single roll, making stacking avoidance less powerfull than it was in Wow, as they ended affecting only the portion of "non avoided damage".

    That way, while in Wow having 20% dodge and 20% parry would lead to 40% avoidance strictly (more with misses & such but it's not the subject), in EQ it ended beeing 36% avoidance at most.

    That from long distand memory so I am not 100% sure, only around 80%.

    • 701 posts
    August 28, 2019 6:30 AM PDT

    @Mauvais - I see what you are saying about the monk block and shield block.  But that is the conditional statement from EQ combat programming.  Wearing a shield gave AC outside of the cap, greatly reducing damage until there were AA's that allowed them to block like a monk while using a shield.  And much like the EQ conditional statement, WoW's calculation (using flat %) fired for each trigger separately; so to use the % you suggested, if someone had a 20% dodge and 20% parry, it didn't "total" 40% avoidance, it was still 20% chance for each avoidance to trigger.  Using that theory, if someone had a 30% block, 30% parry, and 20% dodge (which was not unreasonable for a tank in WoW), they would only have a 20% chance to ever be hit. 


    This post was edited by Darch at August 28, 2019 7:50 AM PDT
    • 1660 posts
    August 28, 2019 11:31 AM PDT

    WoW's calculation (using flat %) fired for each trigger separately; so to use the % you suggested, if someone had a 20% dodge and 20% parry, it didn't "total" 40% avoidance, it was still 20% chance for each avoidance to trigger.  Using that theory, if someone had a 30% block, 30% parry, and 20% dodge (which was not unreasonable for a tank in WoW), they would only have a 20% chance to ever be hit.

     

     

    Thats was exactly the case in Wow. If you could reach 100% cumulated miss/parry/dodge/block you were only hit by blocked attacks (that only had a flat damage reduction, no full avoid either % reduction. Flat for the first 6 years of wow at least).

     

    There is even a rogue that tanked a boss (Mother Shahraz) cumulating 100% full avoidance with a dodge oriented gear, scorpid sting, ghostly strike, insect swarm and he was never hit by physical attacks the whole time. Next expansion they did put diminishing returns on avoidance to avoid this type of threat.

     

    That's also how warriors could avoid critical hits and crushing blows on bosses before reaching the def cap for critical hits. They would use shield block increasing their block by 75% and having just 25% (a bit more for +3 lvl bosses) cumulated miss, dodge and parry would ensure they pushed critical hits and crushing blows out of the attack table, ensuring regular damage withouth spikes.

    • 701 posts
    August 28, 2019 5:59 PM PDT

    The ability to totally negate damage was from cooldowns that increased X ability by X percent (evasion, shield block, etc).  Once that percent was at 100, then you had 100% avoidance (for that ONE trigger).  For instance, if a rogue used evasion, giving them 100% dodge chance, and a warrior used Overpower, which is undodgeable, the rogue still gets hit.  Critical cap was strictly based on defense skill vs critical chance skill.  NPCs had a flat critical chance depending on their level but once your defense skill was high enough, you were immune to NPC critical hits (of certain levels and lower).  That had nothing to do with avoiding damage... if you blocked, dodged or parried you obviously don't get crit either.

    • 1660 posts
    August 28, 2019 8:54 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    The ability to totally negate damage was from cooldowns that increased X ability by X percent (evasion, shield block, etc).  Once that percent was at 100, then you had 100% avoidance (for that ONE trigger).  For instance, if a rogue used evasion, giving them 100% dodge chance, and a warrior used Overpower, which is undodgeable, the rogue still gets hit.  Critical cap was strictly based on defense skill vs critical chance skill.  NPCs had a flat critical chance depending on their level but once your defense skill was high enough, you were immune to NPC critical hits (of certain levels and lower).  That had nothing to do with avoiding damage... if you blocked, dodged or parried you obviously don't get crit either.

     

    I suggest you to read this article for more information on how attack tables works :  https://worldofwarcraft.fandom.com/et/wiki/Attack_table

     

    Here is also the phenomenon of rogue tanking that appeared once during TBC before beeing anticipated for the next expansion : https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Rogues_as_tanks

     

    That was how players used the attack table simplification of combat (one roll only per attack and stacking dodge/parry/misses) to reach the point a boss could simply not hit the player with the right gear. This system highly favored evasion as the more you stacked the less you left other choices on the attack table. The same mechanic was used to some extent to reach crit cap immunity and push crushing blows (+3 lvl monster's chance to do 150% damage on auto attacks) out of the attack table by reaching 102.4% of cumulated misses+dodge+parry+block either while shield blocking for warriors, or cumulating redoubt (+30% block) and holy shield (+30% block) for paladin protection and stacking enough avoidance and base block chance to ensure the total reaches 102.4% at least.

     

    That's the main difference in attack calculations between EQ (A roll for each avoiding stats: dodge/parry/riposte (or block instead of parry for unarmed monks)) and Wow (A single roll wil all results on the same table with some beeing prioritary over others, resulting them beeing pushed outside of the attack table if enough score was reached). Defense's "anti-crit" cap was only reached as comfort and result of defense stacking in later gear tier, but wasn't accomplished with entry gear. Defense also didn't reduce the risks of taking a crushing blow even if your defense matched or overwhelmed the level difference with bosses. Crushing blows got removed with WotLK release to ensure damage entrance was smoothed and avoidance/block/miss stacking was no longer a necessity to ensure non spiky damage.

    Shield block beeing a 5s duration/2 charge ability with a 5s cooldown, it was unlikely that warriors got hit three times in that short window, ensuring a warrior spamming shield block on cooldown not to be crit/crushed when tanking one target, while paladins had less reliability and druid tanks had to eat crits and crushs with their extremely high armor. Thus making the warrior the most comfortable tank for classic and the first expansion, hands down. Ambidextrous mobs having a 19% increased miss chance, they usually had little chances to crit/crush tanks because of that, virtually increasing base miss chances on the attack table to 24%, which eased the need of shield block spamming (warriors) or cumulated avoidance/block/miss cap reaching for paladins, making them far lest violent than they could have been due to a higher DPS output.

     


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at August 28, 2019 8:57 PM PDT
    • 701 posts
    August 29, 2019 6:57 PM PDT

    @Mauvais - All of those WoW links do nothing to disprove my point of the mechanics of EQ:
    https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278886

    Remember, we aren't comparing PRotF to WoW, but EQ, and there is extensive research on the game's mechanics.  To summarize this post, percentages of individual skills don't accumulate, they only increase your chances to trigger an individual trigger.
    Quote from the URL:

    Mathematical summary:
    =========================

    Even though you started with:
    10% chance to Parry
    10% chance to Riposte
    10% chance to Dodge
    10% chance to Block 

    Does NOT mean only 60% of hits will get through!!! 

    Here's another URL identifying the order of the EQ hit/miss conditional statement:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/how-does-damage-mitigation-work.966/

    Summary of this URL:

    When it comes to avoidance (as a catch-all term for any method by which you do not get hit) EQ works like this, and each ability is checked in this specific order:
    mob swings at you
    0. check to see if Block (if a monk, with the Block skill, NOT shield block) fired. if not,
    1. check to see if Riposte fired. if not,
    2. check to see if Parry fired. if not,
    3. check to see if Dodge fired. if not,
    4. check to see if Shield Block fired. if not,
    5. Check to see if the hit lands, or is a 'miss'

    Add:  The rogue tanking link is also exactly what I referred to when I said that the avoidance was from triggered skills on cooldowns that required timing/skill.  I could kill people without them being able to move with my Warlock by simply knowing very basic game mechanics; there were fights in AQ that Warlocks could tank too, its players finding those types of mechanics in PRotF that will cause VR to have to make changes to classes that they can't possibly foresee yet, and that could be potentially game breaking.  They are setting themselves up for rough seas ahead by making things like tanking have so many variables.  Many many good players quit WoW because of the constant rebalancing of classes.


    This post was edited by Darch at August 29, 2019 7:32 PM PDT
    • 1660 posts
    August 30, 2019 1:58 AM PDT

    Honestly I simply didn't read your table the right way. I thought you were sumerazing a table instead of successif rolls. That's why I compared it to Wow's "one roll table" and went about explanations that lenthened the discussion.

     

    However we still not yet known the exact role of a shield in Pantheon, will it be a layer of avoidance ? An AC backpack you carry for stats ? One warrior skill has been stated to allow continuous blocking but will a "random block" in battle be implemented ? That's why I'm advocating for "It might not be a big difference worth mensionning, as it might simply be interactif with specific skills like Sheld block for the warrior or Paladin ?

     

    There is however a mension that should suggest there will be a layer of avoidance tied to the shield :

    Lightguard

    You imbue your shield with celestial light, increasing your chance to Block for a short time. If using a two-handed weapon, this ability will increase your chance to Parry. While Lightguard is active, your Blocks and Parries will stun the attacking enemy. (Uses Wrath)

     

    Yet to see exactly how it will work, partial absorb ? Full avoidance ? Drawback of some sort (some games had shields blocks trigger a stagger as an example, I think it was the case in UO), or simply a mandatory avoidance layer.

    • 701 posts
    September 1, 2019 10:24 AM PDT

    @Mauvais, Ya.  I'm very anxious to see how all of the mechanics will work.  I never thought of myself as much of a meta-gamer or min/max player until I've experienced my feelings on the tanks of PRotF.  Not knowing the game mechanics is really restricting my "personal" ability to generate an opinion on which class I want to play.  Good conversation man.