Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord flex Tank/DPS class?

    • 694 posts
    November 21, 2018 11:35 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You're spreading wildfire, and false ideas, more than assumptions or suggestions. Probably, Pantheon will be close to EQ for the way armor and avoidance works, but probably not. Many points are still really dark here, especially regarding special attacks, their interactions (or lack of) with weapon damage, the way they will be mitigated by armor. Eq had little "special attacks", in fact it only had Bash, kick and Backstab (edit : forgot about the monk kick  and more line). The former beeing the closer to a "nowadays special attack calc" including weapon skill, weapon damage, strength and special attack skill level.

    I don't think waving you arms saying "Warrior will be the only big tank and direlord will be a ranger tank" will be a feedback of any sort, honesly. It's just raising false ideas, and a non legitimate feeling of injustice over a class that is not even released yet.

    All you do is try to twist my words Mauvais - I never said that direlord will be a ranger tank or not be able to tank anything.  Please stop using your doublespeak in an attempt to delegitimize my opinioin.  I said REPEATEDLY that we will have to wait and see - but my concerns are that the devs are not taking NPC RNG defenses into consideration with player skill.  (add: Games that have effectively used lower mitigation/self healing/avoidance tanks absolutely do not rely on the player LANDING HITS on the target; but instead using abilities that gain shields or health based on % of HP or just firing a skill... not a % of damage dealt unless they could also mitigate damage).  To paraphrase one of Goofywarrior's statements, he basically said that healers will be required to be skilled and able to time their heals in order to keep the DL alive... and I agree 100% with this.  The problem with that is that the devs are putting the burden on the players instead of the core mechanics, which SOME people enjoy, but there will be heartache and unless the DL's core mechanics aren't changed from % of damage done, to % of maximum HP they will be outpaced by NPC damage as the game progresses.  When healers start complaining about a specific class (regardless of the validity of that complaint) you can bet that class will get skylined and potentially revamped later... which inevitably starts a never ending cycle of class rebalancing.  (Unless the devs are not truly concerned with class balancing, which I have seen before).


    This post was edited by Darch at November 21, 2018 12:23 PM PST
    • 694 posts
    November 21, 2018 12:47 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Darch said : You said that players didn't block, and I clarified that my post wasn't about players blocking, but it was about the NPC's blocking (in referrence to the subject of my post of mechanics negating the DL's self healing).  And not "every mob blocked" it depended on their archetype, just like every mob didn't quad attack or cast spells.  And lastly, equiping a shield DID make a difference and if a tank could still hold threat with a shield (and wasn't overgeared) then the wise tanks did. 

    I absolutely never said players didn't block. I will re quote myself for the clarification :

    I said : First, block was as you mentionned, a monk ability for unarmed parry. Because in a true rpg, you don't parry with hands, well you block it. Only a typo difference in the end. Not changing much for direlord here.

     

     

    This is from your other post that I was replying to here Mauvis:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    You also mensionned Shield block. But shield block DID NOT exist in EQ. Shield were solely stat slots with an improved AC, and later an improved threat on bash.

    Add:  Stop twisting my words man.  Because I said "shield block" doesn't mean that block didn't exist... you know what I meant.


    This post was edited by Darch at November 21, 2018 12:50 PM PST
    • 47 posts
    November 21, 2018 1:25 PM PST

    I know I had a screenshot tracked down showing a Block value on Pantheon shields, like in Vanguard, but I can't seem to find it.  It was in one of Nick's screenshot compilations from a stream where they had a shield tooltip.  So even if it did not exist in EQ, Shield Block looks to be a thing in Pantheon.

    • 491 posts
    November 21, 2018 3:03 PM PST

    Darch said: The problem with that is that the devs are putting the burden on the players instead of the core mechanics, which SOME people enjoy, but there will be heartache and unless the DL's core mechanics aren't changed from % of damage done, to % of maximum HP they will be outpaced by NPC damage as the game progresses.

    So I know that I have been trying to point out that the Dire Lord lower mitigation doesn't mean he will be a less viable tank, but I do want to point out that I understand your worries Darch. I think the crux of your point of view stem from two facts:

    1) The Dire Lord doesn't get to choose exactly how much healing some of his heals do since they are tied to his damage, so as the damage fluctuates so does the heal amount.
            In a situation where a Boss has very high Mitigation, this could lowers the Dire Lords self heals during that fight.

    2) The Dire Lord's heals are not guarenteed to heal, since if his attack is prevented in some way (eg: Dodged) it does no healing.
            In a situation where a Boss has very high Avoidance, this could prevent Dire Lords self heals during that fight.

    Since this healing element is the 'compensation' for the lower armor mitigation, it makes it unfair in comparison to the other tanks whose armor mitigation works consistantly regardless of what the Bosses Mitigation or Avoidance is, and with no RNG element.

    In regards to the above two points:

    1) This effects Crit heals while in Essence Leech stance. Abyssal Strike is not effected since it ignore's all Armor so will always do full damage and thus full Healing. Thresh is not effected as it does a set Value of 12% of your Max health and so will always do full healing.

    2) This effects Crit heals while in Essence Leech stance (ie: You need to hit in order to Crit). Abyssal Strike is also effected since if it misses it does not heal. It's not clear from the Dire Lord in game footage if the Heal effect on Thresh requires it to hit it's target for the Heal effect to apply, or if the Heal effect of Thresh is guarenteed every time it is cast regardless of it's sucess at hitting the target. This of course will be answered once we are in game and can test it. If it does need to successfully hit to apply the heal, this would then be effected by this 'avoidance' problem.

    In a worst case senario where the Dire Lords attacks are all prevented, or do very minimal damage, in an unlucky streak the Dire Lord would suddenly not be gaining as much health from self heals like a Healer is expecting and could die.

    Whereas one of the other higher Mitigation tanks would have no change to his health loss even with the same bad luck with his attacks and the Healer wouldn't even know the difference.

    So what these points suggest is that the Dire Lords needs to have more self heals that are guarenteed to heal when he chooses to use them and for them to be set at a certain value amount (eg: Max Health or another Stat), rather than tied to a 'RNG' element.

    This does not mean you need to remove all RNG healing from the Dire Lord kit. He just needs to have some Heals that can't be prevented or diminished randomly. The 'Wait and see' element is to see if VR has already discussed this and has plans for Dire Lord abilities that will self heal not tied to RNG that they haven't shown us yet.

    • 2476 posts
    November 21, 2018 5:42 PM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    In a worst case senario where the Dire Lords attacks are all prevented, or do very minimal damage, in an unlucky streak the Dire Lord would suddenly not be gaining as much health from self heals like a Healer is expecting and could die.

    Whereas one of the other higher Mitigation tanks would have no change to his health loss even with the same bad luck with his attacks and the Healer wouldn't even know the difference.

    Similarly in a fight against a mob with high accuracy, critical chance, or perhaps unblockable or armor ignoring attacks/abilities, the higher armor/shield based mitigation tanks would have a more rough time while the DL would be notably less affected.

    • 746 posts
    November 22, 2018 9:39 AM PST

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    So what these points suggest is that the Dire Lords needs to have more self heals that are guarenteed to heal when he chooses to use them and for them to be set at a certain value amount (eg: Max Health or another Stat), rather than tied to a 'RNG' element.

    Conversely, it could just mean that due to the Dire Lord's survivability being intrinsically tied to its offensive capabilities triggering heals (rather than pure mitigation), we can expect that they will gain a higher chance to hit/crit through the use of offensive weaponry, gear and skills, thus helping to close this perceived gap.  I just don't think we have enough information to draw any conclusions at this stage.

    • 1654 posts
    November 22, 2018 5:02 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Add:  Stop twisting my words man.  Because I said "shield block" doesn't mean that block didn't exist... you know what I meant.

     

    I can't get sense in that sentence, but to explain my statement : I just wanted to correct that shield block had no existence in EQ, just that.

     

    About the twisting part :

    Darch said : The DL's survivability (aside from needing a healer) has too much of a reliability on consistantly landing attacks on their target in order to compensate their inability to BLOCK, and considerably lower AC from a armor that Shaman wear and the typically high AC provided by shields.  (A ranger or shaman in EQ could "tank" too... for quite a few levels especially if higher level than the NPCs or overgeared for their level (twinked).) 

     

    If it was misunderstood, it was maybe because it was mispresented first. We had a discussion about the mail fact change on the website page, and I will remain on my words here : We will see.

     

     

    The whole picture beeing :

    -Pointing uncertain elements, unknown skills or mechanics, unknown loot disparity and unknown boss mechanics does not make theorycraft (which only numbers do). They remain cloudy areas of a game that isn't released yet about a class that has not been played much and is one or two year away from release.

    -VR stated they want all tanks to tank equally with a few area to shine, but not to the point it's imbalanced.

     

    With theses two, it seems unadequate to uproar an inequal treatment between tanks or an exclusion / inability to tank big targets for Direlords, with or withouth mechanics taken from EQ. We simply can't know right now, and as it isn't the goal of the devs, it's unlikely to be the case at release.

    • 694 posts
    November 23, 2018 11:22 AM PST

    @Mauvis... I've said time and time again, we will just have to wait and see.  This thread is about having the DL be a DPS with Offtank as a secondary role - This is all speculatory.  Get off of your soapbox.  Of course my statements are unknown for certain because we haven't gotten to play yet (as I've also stated numerous times) but I'm simiply making predictive assumptions based off of my experience and observations.  My reasoning for why I think the DL would make a better DPS with secondary role as a tank is what it is.  Its fine if you think that the devs can perfectly balance all classes to be the same, but have some be able to "shine" in a few areas, (even though they couldn't in EQ or Vangard with tanking casters) thats your prerogative.  And its my prerogative to think that the DL will be second rate to the Warrior and maybe even the Paladin at end game.  Prove me wrong devs!

    @GoofyWarrior... Yes, you are correct in my assumptions/concerns about avoidance and the uncertainty of the amount of consistent self healing and your recommendations would indeed assuage those concerns.  I'm hoping (with the "wait and see") that the DLs will get some serious damage absorbtion or HP boost buffs too.  Perhaps a heightened parry ability while dual wielding *shrug*

    • 1654 posts
    November 23, 2018 12:36 PM PST

    I like Soap. It makes my skin shinny.

     

    I don't really get the prerogative part, I'd have called it an opinion or something similar, but fair enough.

     

    Wait & see.

    • 694 posts
    November 25, 2018 9:45 AM PST

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    This post was edited by Darch at November 25, 2018 9:47 AM PST
    • 35 posts
    November 26, 2018 9:27 AM PST

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

    EXACTLY

     

    Was the same way for me healing assassins in SWTOR, at first I was liek O CRAP YOUR HEALTH, then after I played with them I realized how the class worked and when they really need heals (mostly when CDs were not up).


    And guess what, they tanked everythign just fine up and to end game.

    Stop comparing this to Final Fantasy and The Old Republic kid.  I can assure you this will be absolutely nothing like those.

    edit:  In fact, I was a tester for ToR and the devs absolutely did not listen to many of the testers' concerns, and the game flopped in a few months and eventually had to go free to play.  Their tanking classes were TERRIBLY unbalanced and not all tanks could tank the content like they originally announced.

     

    ok sure dude, you're right.  the DL will not be a tank, the devs are lying to us an you know everything........

     

    wait no, that's not true.  the devs aren't lying DLs will be tanks and you;re wrong.

     

    oh and ToR classes were unbalanced in PvP and their attempts to balance PvP flowed over to PvE and they kept going down hill from there.  But what do I know, you were a tester I was simply a healer on a few server first kills and healed every tank on all content of that game..........

     

    And I'm a 38 year old man, not a "kid", what the heck is wrong with you?


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at November 26, 2018 9:42 AM PST
    • 694 posts
    November 26, 2018 10:25 AM PST

    TheBus88 said:

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

    EXACTLY

     

    Was the same way for me healing assassins in SWTOR, at first I was liek O CRAP YOUR HEALTH, then after I played with them I realized how the class worked and when they really need heals (mostly when CDs were not up).


    And guess what, they tanked everythign just fine up and to end game.

    Stop comparing this to Final Fantasy and The Old Republic kid.  I can assure you this will be absolutely nothing like those.

    edit:  In fact, I was a tester for ToR and the devs absolutely did not listen to many of the testers' concerns, and the game flopped in a few months and eventually had to go free to play.  Their tanking classes were TERRIBLY unbalanced and not all tanks could tank the content like they originally announced.

     

    ok sure dude, you're right.  the DL will not be a tank, the devs are lying to us an you know everything........

     

    wait no, that's not true.  the devs aren't lying DLs will be tanks and you;re wrong.

     

    oh and ToR classes were unbalanced in PvP and their attempts to balance PvP flowed over to PvE and they kept going down hill from there.  But what do I know, you were a tester I was simply a healer on a few server first kills and healed every tank on all content of that game..........

     

    And I'm a 38 year old man, not a "kid", what the heck is wrong with you?

    Easy guy, nobody in this entire forum said that the DL won't be a tank... this forum topic is a suggestion for having the DL be a flex DPS class.  Nobody is calling the devs liars, and nobody is claiming to know everything.  And yes... I did say that ToR classes were unbalanced *shrug*  They were even more unbalanced in PvE (example - any Saber user couldn't tank multiple ranged NPCs because they had very few ranged abilities compared to say the storm troopers and bounty hunter tanks.)  All ranged classes dominated PvE and had a superior advantage in PvP if they couldn't stealth.  (Which myself and 4 of my other friends predicted in Alpha of ToR and were 100% accurate.)


    This post was edited by Darch at November 26, 2018 10:27 AM PST
    • 2476 posts
    November 26, 2018 12:05 PM PST

    Maybe down the line they will add a Berserker class to appease all those who are clamoring to transform Dire Lord into the DPS they will never be. 

    • 35 posts
    November 27, 2018 8:41 AM PST

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

    Darch said:

    TheBus88 said:

    EXACTLY

     

    Was the same way for me healing assassins in SWTOR, at first I was liek O CRAP YOUR HEALTH, then after I played with them I realized how the class worked and when they really need heals (mostly when CDs were not up).


    And guess what, they tanked everythign just fine up and to end game.

    Stop comparing this to Final Fantasy and The Old Republic kid.  I can assure you this will be absolutely nothing like those.

    edit:  In fact, I was a tester for ToR and the devs absolutely did not listen to many of the testers' concerns, and the game flopped in a few months and eventually had to go free to play.  Their tanking classes were TERRIBLY unbalanced and not all tanks could tank the content like they originally announced.

     

    ok sure dude, you're right.  the DL will not be a tank, the devs are lying to us an you know everything........

     

    wait no, that's not true.  the devs aren't lying DLs will be tanks and you;re wrong.

     

    oh and ToR classes were unbalanced in PvP and their attempts to balance PvP flowed over to PvE and they kept going down hill from there.  But what do I know, you were a tester I was simply a healer on a few server first kills and healed every tank on all content of that game..........

     

    And I'm a 38 year old man, not a "kid", what the heck is wrong with you?

    Easy guy, nobody in this entire forum said that the DL won't be a tank... this forum topic is a suggestion for having the DL be a flex DPS class.  Nobody is calling the devs liars, and nobody is claiming to know everything.

     

    Except of course that is exactly what you have been "reasoning, implying and assuming" this entire thread:


    " or until the game has been out long enough for some DL's to get enough pitty groups to get them geared."

     

    "My reasoning for why I think the DL would make a better DPS with secondary role as a tank is what it is."

     

    "They need spike healing, which if you ask experienced healers is very concerning (especially when two of the three healers sound like they rely on HoT).  Some people (like yourself and the dev apparently) think that is "fun".   I suppose it would be fun when you can type a command and complete your corpse run... but still "stressful" even though you have no real risk of loss... think about that for a bit."

     

    " I am making assumptions and suggestions based off of math from another game with incredibly similar combat mechanics."

     

    "If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank"."

     

    Then you went on to lie and put words in the devs mouth to make your "point", nothing was ever said about "having issues healing the DL":
    "Even one of the dev's said during the Dire Lord reveal stream that they were having issues healing the DL due to the significant incoming spike damage being received and that was just in the mid 30"

     

    AGAIN and for one last time, Warrios, Paladins and Dire Lords are and will all be fully capable tanks.  PERIOD.

     

    Your "reasoning" that a DL would make a better DPS with secondary flex tank role is unfounded and not needed since the class has ALREADY been defined as "Tank/Utility".  Each class has been defined and out long enough to no longer speculate about such drastic changes.  PERIOD.


    Dire Lords won't need pity groups to get geared, they will be just as viable for groups as any other tank.  PERIOD.

     

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

    one mroe time.....

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

    • 1654 posts
    November 27, 2018 8:56 AM PST

    @Thebus88

     

    Pick you incoming answer throught a restrictive list here :

     

    -Soap

    -Kid

    -Ascii Smile

    • 35 posts
    November 27, 2018 11:47 AM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    @Thebus88

     

    Pick you incoming answer throught a restrictive list here :

     

    -Soap

    -Kid

    -Ascii Smile

     

    LOL

    • 694 posts
    November 28, 2018 10:22 AM PST

    TheBus88 said:

    ok sure dude, you're right.  the DL will not be a tank, the devs are lying to us an you know everything........

    At no point, even in any of the quotes you reposted did I say that the DL will not be a tank or that I knew everything.  Stop creating content that wasn't there.  Clean the "soap" out of your eyes "kid".  :)

    This is not the only DL forum topic, but it is the one designed to speculate on the possibilites of Flex DPS for the DL... so that is what is discussed here.  Thiis was a civil discussion brought up by a few other people but the last 2 pages have been you and M.O. repeatedly stating that I am claiming that either the DL won't be a tank (which I never said) or that I'm wrong about how "I FEEL" the DL won't be as good of a tank as the warrior (which I did say, and may be untrue, but that is how I feel - and we are all allowed our opinions).


    This post was edited by Darch at November 28, 2018 10:43 AM PST
    • 1654 posts
    November 28, 2018 3:21 PM PST

    @Darch

    I encourage yourself to re-read your own post with quotes highlighted to understand the problem and why you escalated into nitpicking whatever you wanted and adding unargumentative answers.

     

    Initially I simply wanted to correct a few assertions about avoidance calculation and the "blurry area" of Mail / Heavy mail, however as I simply reminded some areas were yet too blurry to conclude on, or could simply mean to little to no difference in mitigation, you took the liberty to answer to my assertions withouth quotes and stating things I didn't say and weren't even quoted.

    This is pretty much what you're complaining now, that someone is claiming you've said something you didn't, except that you got quoted and thoses are pretty evident.

     

    I assume you're not used to the medicine you're giving to others, including derision and unfitting familiar additions.

     

    I would also like to remember the first page got tainted by Nscheffel's monthly visit, and while this topic is still a discussion that can course, none of the pages haven't drifted out of subject by numerous posters including everyone of us.

     

    We all just jump of section of someone's topic and disgress it into a different one, expanding the discussion or shifting it for a few answers to something different, that's a common forum behaviour.

    • 694 posts
    November 30, 2018 6:19 AM PST

    This is the funniest thing I've seen yet...
     
    "How did I just die?"
    "Ya, how did you just die?"

    ROFL - Spike damage.

    https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2978

    • 491 posts
    December 2, 2018 3:26 AM PST

    Darch said: "How did I just die?"   "Ya, how did you just die?"   ROFL - Spike damage.

    Actually what happend seems like a glitch of some sort. Watch what happens from Nirobi's PoV

    Nibori wasn't even tanking the enemy. The mob they were fighting was throwing a Flask on the ground that hit everyone around him for 34 damage. He thought the damage was magical, so he tried out this spell:

    Canopy of Blood
    You release nearly all of the blood in your veins, sacrificing 25% of your health to create a covering that renders all within X meters of you immune to magical effects for a short time.

    And you can watch in the combat log on his stream that Nibori hits himself for 298 damage (presumably that is 25% of his total HP) and he also takes 6 points of damage from the Thorns effect the druid has on him.

    Then the enemy throws out his 'Flask' ability again, and while it hits everyone else for 34 damage, it hits Nibori for 3434 damage. Which I'm sure is just a glitch in the code making it put 34 together twice to be 3434.

    Joppa later explains that the damage isn't even magical, but rather 'chemical damage', so that Canopy of Blood doesn't even protect against it.

    • 1654 posts
    December 2, 2018 3:15 PM PST

    @GoofyWarriorGuy

     

    That's interesting as a whole, early big bugs are rare enough for us not to think about them firsthand.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at December 17, 2018 5:57 PM PST
    • 694 posts
    December 3, 2018 7:18 AM PST

    @Goofy - That sounds like a bug indeed.  Possibly triggered by canopy of blood, the testers should be trying to duplicate it.

    • 35 posts
    December 17, 2018 4:45 PM PST

    I actually hope that the DL will actually be able to deal decent damage should he choose to select the appropriate skills for the encounters. Not saying I want the tank to be able to top off the damages of a rogue or a fully dedicated DPS class (like a mage or something). 

    That could work in a way that the DL has debuff to increase the damages the enemy takes (resistance debuff etc.) and so, in a group, he would have a good DPS. If you add in another class that would benefit from that debuff of course they will do more damage but it does not have to be such a huge gap between both.
    Then when you build your raid you could still be thinking about taking a DL in the DPS slot because he also increase the the DPS of other classes making his addition equivalent to a full DPS.
    For example he can't use that skill when he tanks because it makes him more vulneralble etc so you will have to make a choice. (And how you gear yourself would also be a factor probably).

    The reason why is

    1. It's annoying if you simply can't have 2 tanks in the group because they would be useless and you are forced to discard any other tank that are coming their way.
    2. It allows to change pace a bit explore new things from your class and not force you to reroll all the time.
    3. I like the idea of a DPS that has a mix of Magical/Melee damage


    This post was edited by Khraag at December 17, 2018 4:45 PM PST
    • 35 posts
    December 18, 2018 11:16 AM PST

    Darch said:

    This is the funniest thing I've seen yet...
     
    "How did I just die?"
    "Ya, how did you just die?"

    ROFL - Spike damage.

    https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2978

     

    Clean the "soap" out your eyes "kid" you can't even get this right :)

     

    He damaged himself due to a bug as goofy pointed out.....


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at December 18, 2018 11:16 AM PST
    • 694 posts
    December 19, 2018 7:01 AM PST

    @TheBus - I too mentioned that very thing.  It is still technically spike damage, regardless if it is a bug or not but I actually meant to post that in the "spike damage" forum topic, not here.  This is the post regarding flex DPS.